Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: Coyote Chris on May 12, 2011, 10:09:28 PM
-
I asked this question on another Connie forum but I thought perhaps some one here might have some input for me.
Short version: Walk up to 2003 Connie with 27,000 mi on her. Turn gas to "Prime". Gas flows in steady stream from No. 1 Carb intake into air filter box and onto the ground.
Just like there is no needle and seat and float. I put a note on the key: Hydrolock!. Can I take the float bowl off and check and see if needle/seat/ float is cracked, missing, sunk, etc or do I have to remove the whole carb bank?
Long Version. Put Connie to bed last winter. Removed every last drop of E10 from Tank and float bowls. Removed tank, aired and put tank in basement. Fogged tank.
Brought Connie back to life last weekend. Even changed add on fuel filter. Fired right up and ran fine for 20 miles. Started to take a short trip today and it was chugging. Then a kind of white smoke
came out of Port exhaust. Stopped bike and saw gas dripping out of air cleaner housing. Took out air cleaner, put petcock to "Prime" and saw gas pouring out of Number one Carb intake. I fooled the Government into giving me an aircraft mechanics license 40 years ago so I think I can fix this. I was just wondering if it was worth trying to get the float bowl off without taking the who bank out. I have the manual and Chalkdust. Just trying to decide what the best path would be at this time or if taking out the bank isnt that bad a job.
Grounded in Spokane
-
I just pulled my float bowls off my carbs that were already removed from the bike. The bowls have four soft brass(?) phillips head screws each. I stripped three of my sixteen screws using the correct size screwdriver with a nice blade. Since you had your bowls off last winter, you should know how your screws are.
Something tells me that getting it off while still on the bike might be tough, although the #1 and #4 should be easier.
Also, how do the floats come out? I just fiddled with my gassy floats for a second, but I didn't immediately see how the float valve even comes out.
Getting the carb bank out is easy, but I hear getting it back in is the hard part. Also depends on how old the rubber boots are.
It should be safe to pull the tank, pull your spark plugs (and move the wires far away) and crank the starter to push out any gas in the cylinders, maybe with a towel over the head. Once there's no gas in the cylinders, and you're back on the vacuum petcock, you might be ok. Someone else please chime in if this doesn't sound right.
I read a bunch about hydrolock *after* I ruined one engine. It sounds like you're ok so far. Good luck, sir!
-
When I removed the entire carb assembly from mine earlier this year in order to send them to SISF to have overflow tubes installed, I didn't find the job of removal or replacement that difficult at all. I used several zip ties on the boots that connect the carbs to the air box to hold them in a folded over position. This gives you a little extra wiggle room when placing the carbs back into place.
Getting the bowl off the outside carb(s) shouldn't be that difficult but you may want to consider removing the entire set and if you have the $$, send them to Steve for overflow tubes. You won't be dissappointed, this I assure. Another suggestion is if you do go the route of only taking the one bowl off is to replace the original screws with stainless allen head screws. Any decent hardware store should have them. Good luck!
-
First off, welcome to this forun full of newbies.
It sounds like you've done everything right for storage and take particular care to prevent carbbie issues. However, something is obviously messed up. What I have done in the past for bowl access to rejet or whatever is to disconnect the boots and intake rubbers and slide the carbbies sideways a bit then lift up on the side sticking out. You should have enough slack in the throttle cables, you may have to remove the enrichener cable. This will give reasonable access to bowl screws and also allow for inspection/repair of the exposed carb.
Installation will be less of a hassle this way.
I would strongly suggest removing the carbbies and sending them away to get SiSFied. He'll go through them with a complete cleaning, install the 2 minute mod jetting, install overflow tubes, and ship them back to you for $300, plus parts, and with a quick turnaround time
Many happy customers, and it will give you the peace of mind of not worrying about hydrolock.
http://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/ (http://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/)
I would suggest a search of the forum for more on his service, but that will not work so good right now.
Good Luck.
-
To answer one of your questions, it is possible to remove the float bowls with the carbs on the bike. The outside ones are easier than the inside ones. A right-angle ratchet screwdriver helps
http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/carbAdjustScrewdriver.htm (http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/carbAdjustScrewdriver.htm)
-
Hey Norcalbarney, thanks, but I just drained the floatbowls using the drain screws...didnt take them off....thanks for your input, one and all. Looks like I need to get the bank off.
(The other forum is locking up my computer for some reason....)
You wouldnt happen to have a link to the process of removing and replaceing the bank, would you? The weather in Spokane is suppose to be aweful next week so it is a good time to do the job. I Work slow and methodically (It takes me 3 hours to set the valves) but I am retired so I have a bit of time if the weather is bad. I just need a list of 10 easy steps and some hints like we all have for , say , setting the valves. I will get the manual out Sunday and read up. I love taking this bike to the Reno Nat'l Air Races every Sept. and touring Montana and Wyoming in August so I have a bit of time till then.
I appreciate your help.
Chris down but not out.
-
When you drained fuel, float is in down position. when you filled the carb, it stayed down (stuck). to dislodge float I would rev motor, tap carbs, ride hard... anything, to keep from r&r carbs.
-
Hey Norcalbarney, thanks, but I just drained the floatbowls using the drain screws...didnt take them off....thanks for your input, one and all. Looks like I need to get the bank off.
(The other forum is locking up my computer for some reason....)
You wouldnt happen to have a link to the process of removing and replaceing the bank, would you? The weather in Spokane is suppose to be aweful next week so it is a good time to do the job. I Work slow and methodically (It takes me 3 hours to set the valves) but I am retired so I have a bit of time if the weather is bad. I just need a list of 10 easy steps and some hints like we all have for , say , setting the valves. I will get the manual out Sunday and read up. I love taking this bike to the Reno Nat'l Air Races every Sept. and touring Montana and Wyoming in August so I have a bit of time till then.
I appreciate your help.
Chris down but not out.
Here are your steps (as I remember them anyway)
1. Remove seat.
2. Remove tank.
3. Remove screw on each side holding the airbox in. This will let you later scoot the airbox back that little 1/2". Believe me, it will make a difference.
4. Loosen clamps holding carb bank to intake manifold.
5. Roll back springs holding carb bank to airbox.
This is where there are two schools of thought. Only do one of these (I suggest 6b.):
6a. Remove cables from throttle side and enricher cable from left side.
6b. Leave the cables on the bars.
7. Pull the bank free of the intake and airbox boots. This step takes a little manuevering and tugging. Don't force it, but don't take it to dinner either. Pull towards the left side of the bike
8. Remove the push/pull cables and the enricher cable from the bank.
9. TA DA!!
Install is the reverse. Silicon spray helps get the carbs back into the boots. Also, if your airbox boots are hard, buy another set from Murph.
-
(Mach1charlie, yes, I did do your suggestions when it started acting up a block from home, but no help. I would like to know if the floats are metal or plastic and if they are prone to failure or sticking)
medicevans, thanks! good info. I am a bit confused about 6a or 6b. I think what you reccommend is to leave the cables alone till it is time to pull the bank out, then disconnect the cables at the bank end. Sounds like the best plan.
I really appreciate you guys helping me out. Interestingly, I have been riding every year since 1964 touring since 1967 and this is the first time I have had a major bike problem that would have made for a bad day on the road. OK, except for the now infamous Goldwing battery sydrome issues around the turn of the century, but that always happened after a stop.
-
I am 99% positive floats are plastic. As for 6a or 6b, you can either disconnect the cables at the bars and pull them out with the carb bank and them disconnect them from the carbs, or you can leave them attached at the bars and pull the carbs out the left side and take them off at the bank. It is much much easier to do it the second way. Also, I want to reiterate, if your airbox boots are hard, buy new ones. Save yourself the frustration. Also, buy silicone spray for reinstall, makes stuff much easier. There's always time for lubrication!!
-
Thanks! Yes, the silicon spray is an idea I have used time and again. And yes, I will check the hardness of the airbox boots. Murph makes good stuff! I use his quality screw kit.
Odd thing happened. Thinking if I had a float with a crack in it, if I drained the float bowl and then "redrained" it the next day, more gas would come out as the float would empty itself into the now empty bowl. And gas did come out the second draining. Now I am going to take the line off the tank and see if more comes out tomarrow and then remove the bank in two or three days when I have a bit of time.
Chris
-
Sometimes a little air pressure blown in the fuel line can get a stuck float to unstick....
-
Good point. I think I do want to know if and why the float is sticking. See if I can duplicate it or if it is damaged, or if it is the needle and seat so I can sleep at night.
By the way, medicevans, another small clarification on the procedure. I assume the tupperware has to come off in order to get a screw driver onto the intake hose clamp screws of the inner carbs(step 4)?
-
Yes, sorry about that. I forgot to mention that you need to remove the lower fairings in order to access everything easily. I don't know of you absolutely HAVE to remove the plastics, but I did. I decided that I like my engine enough to let it hang out, so I'm only running the upper fairing now anyway. It makes stuff like this a lot easier.
-
you don't need to remove the mid fairings at all. also, a nice tip is to flip the clamps on 2+3 to the top so they're easier to access. HTH, Steve
-
There you go. SiSF had only had a set of Conc carbs on and off two or three times, so he would probably know. :D
-
There you go. SiSF had only had a set of Conc carbs on and off two or three times, so he would probably know. :D
Since we're all "newbies" again, and someone might read the above statement literally, I'd like to respond - during the course of all my work on Shoodaben, which is still ongoing, I've probably pulled my carbs more than 5 dozen times. I pulled carbs countless times developing the jet kits too. Plus, I do them on other connies regularly - most recently friday, when I pulled / cleaned / jetted / reinstalled and sync'ed Daytona Mikes carbs. Trust me, I can literally pull the carbs with my eyes closed. Steve
-
Hey Steve, Yes, I think you are definately Mr. Connie carb! I appreciate your input. I do like your idea of turning the clamps so that one can get to the screws from the top. My plan for this bike is simple. I want to keep it for as long as I live. As I grow older and infirm, there may be an NT700v or another like bike in my garage, but after riding for 46 years, the Connie with a few farkles is simply the best bike for me that has ever been and maybe will ever be.
One point of curiosity, when we ship carbs to you and you back to us, is it best to pack them in pleanty of bubblewrap in big boxes? I have seen UPS, etc packages handled so roughly that gun stocks have literally be broken almost in two and I would think float bowl mechanisms dont appreciate being slammed around for 4000 miles of shipping. As far as I have seen "handle with care" stickers are a joke.
-
The secret is to pack them TIGHTLY so they don't rattle around. i have has some come in that were packed loosely, and they bust out of the box from inertia when thrown around. I ship usps priority, and the carbs ship in the large priority box - not the one that would be for a large book, but the largest box they offer. I drain the carbs and blow them dry, wrap in a few layers of newspaper or shipping paper, then inside a plastic bag or 2. then I stuff news / shipping paper all around the carbs and off they go. I always include tracking too. It's the least expensive and so far the quickest shipping I've used yet - Steve
-
Great! I like tracking. I have had some issues with the postal service and tracking is a good thing. I dont mind paying for insurance or "signature required" either.
You would be surpised at the mail for others that goes into my PO box and espeically into my home box.
-
Good point Steve. No offense intended I assure you.
I am positive that Steve isn't exaggerating when he says he could pull the carbs off with his eyes closed. After talking me through my botched up exhaust sprocket install, I believe it. Steve described to me what I was seeing like he was sitting next to me instead of 2000 miles away. Top notch vendor, top notch mechanic, top notch man.
-
Thanks for the good reference for Steve. He is the only guy I would have work on my Connie's carbs. Rainy day today in Spokane means no ranch work so I am going to try and pull the bank today. Oil level seems to have "risen" magically so I will drain that off, pull the plugs and check for hydrolock. The manual says do not use carb cleaner that might hurt plastics? Is there still such a critter?
Good article in the Concourier, Fall 2006 by a Mr. Riczinger Cog 5977, on Pulling and serviceing the carbs. "The Carbs...it aint a diet thang." I dont want to get into the carbs as deep as he did, so I think if I need to, Steve gets them.
-
With the oil level rising "magically" as you say, wouldn't surprise me if there's gas sitting in a cylinder somewhere. I'd take the key and hide it from yourself so you don't accidentally hit the starter button out of habit. Maybe I'm the only one who shuts my brain off like that, but a little prevention goes a long way!
-
Thanks to Rev Ryder's great tip about pushing in the air box boots, and Steve's tip about repositioning the intake manifold clamps, I can now get the carbs on and off with relative ease. I can't make his zip tie trick work on those boots as my old hands won't work like they used to so I just used stainless steel hose clamps instead with a nutdriver….they go on and off with ease. I might even post some pics I took on my photobucket website. I am writing up a procedure with pics. Some folks left out a few details like vacuum and vent hoses, etc but no matter. This isn’t rocket science. I did remove the Tupperware the first time to reposition the manifold screws and just to make things easier. The next time I won't need to remove the tupperware.
Anyway, I drained the float bowls into a clear clean glass and there was no dirt, etc.
So I put the carbs on a special bench with the tank over the carbs, turned the gas petcock to prime, and the float bowls all filled with no leaks. The problem with No. 1 carb had fixed itself for now.
I redrained the float bowls and took off the bowl for number one carb. There was virtually no dirt in the carb body, and only alittle brown stuff in the bottom of the float bowl. I took out the needle and float, checked the spring, looked at everything with a magnifying glass. Nothing. I held the float submerged in a glass of gas. No bubbles. Everything looked new.
I put the bowl back on after cleaning it and redid the float bowl fill check on the bench. Perfect.
There is no gas in Cylinder No. 1.
I think what I will do now is change the oil, Check the volume of oil removed, lube the cables, put it back together and see what happens. I just have to know. If it still messes up, its off to Steve in Sunny Florida. If it doesn't mess up, I will probably wait to the end of the riding season in Sept. to send it to him. I will let you know what happens. Thanks to all of you that helped me.
Chris Dallman, COG 5807
(here are some pics...more to come)
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd385/CoyoteChris303/Connie/ (http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd385/CoyoteChris303/Connie/)