Author Topic: A thread about nothing at all....  (Read 730122 times)

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2660 on: August 01, 2017, 11:05:53 AM »
So far the conversation has been civil.  When they get un-civil (my interpretation) they either get moved to another place (Arena) or they get shut down.  This thread is so big that I would be extremely reluctant to lock it (It would make me very irritable to do so) or censor it.   Mike, for you, the Arena is a place for those discussions that can get not so civil.  Members can ask for Arena access.  In which case we grant it.  There you can discuss whatever, any way you like.  There is no moderation as such.  What you get is what you get.  Threads aren't locked or sanitized.

I'm always civil , I can't help it if some people are delicate flowers :D
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2661 on: August 01, 2017, 11:11:11 AM »
and then we start on British Standard Fine & British Standard Whitworth threads amongst others :)

Oddly although fuel is sold in litres the majority of road users still refer to MPG

Personally I find it quite easy to mix'n'match especially with having Europe on the doorstep

And then again moving into the more modern world, MegaBits or MegaBytes per second?


(is it about time to change the subject before anyone gets touchy??)


Yeah, well here in the colonies, we have been pretty successful.... hell, outright successful in not mixing up our units (Easy Boys! Not talking about that unit) or altering the landscape of reality due to a new measuring system. Our building supplies have NOT changed in the last 50 years or longer..... copper tubing from 1930 will sweat into new copper tubing purchased today. Same thing with our fences, building panel sizes (plywood, drywall, ad nauseum), which are all 4 X 8' and 4 X 12'.

Then again, we have made almost zero movement toward the metric system. So there is no competition or 'force' to use it. And not to throw stones but it does seem that in the UK you have the worst of all possible systems.... multiple systems.  ;) ;D  I once heard fuel mileage stated in miles per liter or kilometers per gallon or some such mixing of measuring units. Of course that too works but really it is best and simplest I think to stay with one system. If converting, swallow the pill and go over to the 'other' system and be done with the pain.

Now that I have said that, our automotive industry HAS been shifting over to metric, one fastener at a time it seems. For a long time, the standard was still SAE (our 'inch' system) but some components used metric fasteners. The metric fasteners were blue so as to help (yeah, that is helpful). So a mechanic ends up with an auto all apart (broken down to bits in Brit. speak) and a bucket of hardware.... some black,some blue and it he / she cannot remember which went where, it is going to be long and painful to reassemble. Proof that there is no limit to bad ideas.

And one more point on measuring systems: no matter how mangled a system seems to be, it is always more mangled than that when looked at more closely. We have electrical wire gauge sizes, where the smaller the number, the larger the wire, number drill sizes, where the number means nothing regarding measured size, wire gauge sizes for [non electrical] wire which is again an independant measurement. Then some really off- the- wall measurements such as firearm gauge or 'bore' sizes as shotguns use. The smaller the number the bigger the bore, except for the shotgun gauge .410, which in not a guage at all but a caliber, and that caliber is .45 of course (??). Bore sized were orginally based on one lb. of lead, broken down into divisions: a lb. of lead used to make 12 equal spheres of lead would yield a 12 gauge bore (1 /12th of a pound of lead). This is why the bigger the number, the smaller the bore size. Same thing with wire; a fixed amount of material drawn into wire size would yield a length of wire and the smaller the diameter, the longer that length.  Oh yeah, it is truly a mixed bag of insanity to delve into measuring systems, at least those used in the Old World (and the US system is most assuredly based on Old World systems).

Brian
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Offline gPink

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2662 on: August 01, 2017, 11:12:33 AM »
I'm always civil , I can't help it if some people are delicate flowers :D

Sounds kind of girlish..... That must be the British counterpart to our 'special snowflakes'.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2663 on: August 01, 2017, 11:26:42 AM »
Well, I do not think it is touchy yet. Let's test those waters..... :-)

Ah, the Whitworth system! Yes, a fantastic piece of.... evil. I never did figure out that one but I know I would pick up a [large sized wrench] and it was surprisingly small.  ;D   Probably the same way some people must feel when they see what is actually surrounded by a 'Magnum' sized..... well, you know.

The computer thingy is pretty stable although there was some controversy as to whether a mega was 1,000 X 1,000 or 1,024 X 1,024.

Brian

and then we start on British Standard Fine & British Standard Whitworth threads amongst others :)

Oddly although fuel is sold in litres the majority of road users still refer to MPG

Personally I find it quite easy to mix'n'match especially with having Europe on the doorstep

And then again moving into the more modern world, MegaBits or MegaBytes per second?


(is it about time to change the subject before anyone gets touchy??)
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2664 on: August 01, 2017, 01:54:55 PM »
I've just remembered. Although most food is now sold in metric weights pizzas are still sold in boxes, sorry I mean Inches :)
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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2665 on: August 01, 2017, 02:24:57 PM »
Hey, funny 'metric' story: Traveling to Chicago to oversee the installation and setup of my company's slot in the IMTS, I was there with a handful of Germans and a few Americans (I was working for a German firm). Long story but I was the only one there with a car as I drove to Chi- town via upstate NY, and had to stop in NY on the way back. Anyway, traveling around on the edges of Chicago (the north side), I find this terriffic pizza place that does the hardwood fired oven thing, and does the Chicago deep dish pizzas (being a north-easterner, I had never had those before- they are excellent but given a choice, I still prefer plain ole' flat pizza). Anyway, I take a couple of Germans out to this place one night and I suggest they try the deep- dish pizza, I ordered a thin crust pizza. The chow hits the table and the look on the German's faces is priceless: they both speak pretty good English and one of them speaks <almost> perfect English, and one of them says "Damn Inch system!". Apparently, they had no idea what a 12" pizza really was. So after eating maybe 1/4 of their pizzas, they about slithered out of the restaurant and into the car......  :rotflmao:

Brian


I've just remembered. Although most food is now sold in metric weights pizzas are still sold in boxes, sorry I mean Inches :)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2666 on: August 01, 2017, 02:49:04 PM »
As I don't like the metric system at all, I think I'm leaning towards Imperial, but prefer the US system at the moment.   But then again you left out the other system at work here.....Jim. ;)

Well please don't ask me... I use a MIX!  I only think in Fahrenheit, period.  But for distance, weight, and volume I use "Imperial"/SAE (I suppose it is called) for large units and Metric for small units.  Yes, I know it seems crazy:

I think in miles and feet.  But anything smaller and it is centimeters and millimeters.
I think in gallons, but anything smaller and I think in liters and milliliters.
I think in pounds, but anything smaller and I think in grams and milligrams.

I believe the main reason is that I don't like fractional notation and also the science background, which pushes me metric.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2667 on: August 01, 2017, 02:57:53 PM »
Yep, that is kinda' strange. I tried using a Mix once but he did not like it at all.

'Measure it with micrometers, mark it with a crayon, cut it with an axe..... tolerances stack up'.

 ;)

Brian

Well please don't ask me... I use a MIX!  I only think in Fahrenheit, period.  But for distance, weight, and volume I use "Imperial"/SAE (I suppose it is called) for large units and Metric for small units.  Yes, I know it seems crazy:

I think in miles and feet.  But anything smaller and it is centimeters and millimeters.
I think in gallons, but anything smaller and I think in liters and milliliters.
I think in pounds, but anything smaller and I think in grams and milligrams.

I believe the main reason is that I don't like fractional notation and also the science background, which pushes me metric.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2668 on: August 02, 2017, 08:21:34 AM »
I really feel this should be a Brit's job but since none seem to want to pick up the ball, and this is information that we desperately need, I will do the best I can. That's right, a colonist doing a subject's job....  ;D

Prince Philip has officially retired at 96 years of age. So from far away and with no connection to the man or his position whatsoever, lets' review:

He is 96 years old and has been married to the Queen for 70 years. He has had 22,219 official engagements since 1952, given 5,496 speeches, participated as a patron or president in 785 organizations. I would be tempted to comment by saying 'not bad' but lets' face it, that is Frickin' spectacular! And of course he had a naval career before beginning these duties. Again, a full and honestly amazing lifetimes' worth for any human IMO.

And just as amazing is that the Queen is 91 and still performing her duties, and while it seems she is cutting back on her schedule, frankly it is amazing she is performing any duties at all, long past anyone's version of a retirement age.

So again, from a place far away, I think the British people (and the entire British Commonwealth) have been more than well and ably served by this couple, and frankly I think they have given far more in the name of duty than most would now, or have had in the past, and more than should be expected in the future. If all of us tried 10% as hard to do the right thing, I think the world would benefit.

The source of the stats. quoted: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40798469

Brian
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2669 on: August 02, 2017, 10:04:17 AM »
Cheers Brian

Technically he hasn't retired, he's simply withdrawn from doing solo engagements

He was also the first Royal to give a TV interview and behind the scenes completely changed the way Buck Palace was run

Oh ok he may have been a bit politically incorrect on occasion, likely he would have got banned if he was let onto some web forums ;)



I really feel this should be a Brit's job but since none seem to want to pick up the ball, and this is information that we desperately need, I will do the best I can. That's right, a colonist doing a subject's job....  ;D

Prince Philip has officially retired at 96 years of age. So from far away and with no connection to the man or his position whatsoever, lets' review:

He is 96 years old and has been married to the Queen for 70 years. He has had 22,219 official engagements since 1952, given 5,496 speeches, participated as a patron or president in 785 organizations. I would be tempted to comment by saying 'not bad' but lets' face it, that is Frickin' spectacular! And of course he had a naval career before beginning these duties. Again, a full and honestly amazing lifetimes' worth for any human IMO.

And just as amazing is that the Queen is 91 and still performing her duties, and while it seems she is cutting back on her schedule, frankly it is amazing she is performing any duties at all, long past anyone's version of a retirement age.

So again, from a place far away, I think the British people (and the entire British Commonwealth) have been more than well and ably served by this couple, and frankly I think they have given far more in the name of duty than most would now, or have had in the past, and more than should be expected in the future. If all of us tried 10% as hard to do the right thing, I think the world would benefit.

The source of the stats. quoted: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40798469

Brian
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2670 on: August 06, 2017, 05:49:10 PM »
Thermite.... neat stuff. A mixture of metals and metal oxides, all just itchin' to get to some other state. And they are willing to give up a LOT of energy (in the form of heat) go get there. The neat thing is that this process is relatively cheap, easy to use and can be harnessed to do useful things. Perhaps the most interesting, in day- to- day life is this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uxsFglz2ig

Welding railroad tracks together with a thermite core weld. Most impressive. The stuff that falls out into the pans on the sides is the result of the original materials but what is impressive is the link formed between and around the rails; note that mechanical contraption to shear the excess metal off the rails before it cools. Thor and Sven are probably sick and tired of watching this but the first time or three it is quite slick I think.

Brian
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Offline Rhino

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2671 on: August 07, 2017, 09:06:13 AM »
Thermite.... neat stuff. A mixture of metals and metal oxides, all just itchin' to get to some other state. And they are willing to give up a LOT of energy (in the form of heat) go get there. The neat thing is that this process is relatively cheap, easy to use and can be harnessed to do useful things. Perhaps the most interesting, in day- to- day life is this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uxsFglz2ig

Welding railroad tracks together with a thermite core weld. Most impressive. The stuff that falls out into the pans on the sides is the result of the original materials but what is impressive is the link formed between and around the rails; note that mechanical contraption to shear the excess metal off the rails before it cools. Thor and Sven are probably sick and tired of watching this but the first time or three it is quite slick I think.

Brian

That's cool stuff! Now I wonder what the trade off is versus a more traditional arc weld process.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2672 on: August 07, 2017, 11:10:57 AM »
I do not think anything even close to a conventional arc welding process would apply. Even some unconventional processes (hot wire, submerged arc) would not apply. Not to mention the size of the welder that would have to be present, and the skill of the weldor (not a typo- the 'welder' is the machine, the 'weldor' in the guy with blacklung holding the stinger.... and Easy Boys! Not that kind of a stinger) and the time waiting for the rails to cool enough to hit them with another bead. Honestly, I do not know of a welding process that would allow both the vertical as well as the horizontal portions of a railroad rail to be welded. It could be and may be done but not anywhere near as cheaply, as fast, as fast (yep, said it twice) and not anything any idiot could do. And one of the beautiful parts of it is that both pieces of the parent metal (the rails) as well as the filler are all extremely hot and cool slowly; this prevents thermal shock, 'hot shortness' and a whole host of other problems. Plus because it is all done outside the envelope of the atmosphere, all those considerations are gone too, such as hydrogen embrittlement (that one is a real, cast iron BI!CH too), underbead microcracking, oxidation inclusions and so forth. Really, an ingenious but also excellent process.

If I had to choose an alternate method it would be resistance butt welding. It would take a HUGE weldor but hey, that IS the rail company so.... possible. The biggest downside that I can see is that one track would have to be left loose to be driven into the other rail. Again, not a deal- killer but not as easy as what you saw there either.

In the olden' days, they just terminated them on a tie and left it at that- which is what gave trains their typical, familiar 'click- clack' noise. Higher speed trains have necessitated better rails, better ties, and better roads (the bed the ties or sleepers ride on). And just about everyplace outside the US has a need for these better tracks; our own train system, with few, small and isolated exceptions, is really 1950's technology.

By the way, notice how those 'wooden' railroad ties are concrete? And the 'spikes' holding the rails to the ties are bolts? Trains are like that all over Europe and they are very precise, strong and durable. Riding the ICE in Germany is a fantastic experience in no small way because of the rails and materials under the train.... and of course the trains are pretty cool also. There is an annunciator in each car that shows the speed of the train; starting out in Frankfurt am Main, the tracks (gleis) are right next to and parallel with the Autoban. It starts out looking like the cars are gonna' win but the acceleration is pretty strong and very constant and once the train reaches about 140 MPH, most of the cars are going the wrong way (train passing them). Closing in on 200 MPH, and all the cars I saw were coming at me taillights- first. :-) For anyone in Germany for any reason, if you can find the time, try on an ICE (Inner City Express, these are main lines running between large cities, not the regular Deutch Bahn). The trains in The Netherlands are at least as nice, not as fast but they throw in a fascinating kind of music coming from the phase generators commutating the motors driving the train. It is not intentional of course but a great by- product IMO.

And just because this is a thread about nothing.....

An amazing lesson for me was standing on the siding of a German railroad station. All the usual stuff: find out where you want to go, find the train that gets there (or closer at least) buy a ticket, find the particular track and note which way the train is entering and leaving the station (so you are not on the wrong side). You have 10 minutes until the train time, which is departure time. Smoking a cigarette, killing time and it is 5 minutes until 'train time' WHEN SUDDENLY, a train is coming into your slot. Doors open, people get off and people get on, you get rid of the smoke and are just about to step on the door when you notice the train is showing the wrong city. Confusion, consternation and the fact that you may be about to make a mistake in getting on the wrong train, or you may be making a different mistake in not getting on the right train. Only thing to do is back off and pay attention. Train leaves the station and now there are three minutes until the official 'train time' but you figure, as my wife likes to say, "that train has sailed" and you will soon be looking for another way to wherever you are going. But wait, another train is pulling into the station.... and it has the RIGHT destination showing! People get off, people get on (and now I am one of those people) and..... wait for it..... the train leaves the station at the very minute the ticket and schedule said it would . Bottom line, no screwing around with DB (Deutsche Bahn, literally Germany's Train); they run on time, they run often and they run efficiently. Slick system.

Brian

That's cool stuff! Now I wonder what the trade off is versus a more traditional arc weld process.
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Offline gPink

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2673 on: August 07, 2017, 11:27:03 AM »
I was wondering about the ties. I'm surprised concrete can withstand the harmonic vibration.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2674 on: August 07, 2017, 11:46:17 AM »
And speaking of things train.... how do they 'plow' the snow off of railroads? With plows and snow blowers, of course. Sure it is a little bigger than what most of us are used to, and maybe it does have a few thousand horsepower but hey, it is just a snowblower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCqEBdjaXpM

If one wants to go faster, chuck the blower and use a V- plow with some horsepower, weight and speed behind it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzZk1cZGQZs

Drifts at 1:45 and a bigger plow and train at 3:10

Of course the problem with any snowplow is that enough snow will defeat them, one way or another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF2ZPRmocs4

Drifts at 0:20, stopped by 0:45 :-(

The other way they get stopped is when the derail.

But when the snowfall is bad enough in the Sierra Nevadas that all the 'normal' train clearing machines just cannot handle it any longer, they bring on the larger, more able snowblower. Only used about once a decade, it is not a blower but an entire train system, using two blowers, each powered its own large diesel, then two locomotives to puss the assembly forward. It looks like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuX4G3znpDE

Decent footage of it in use at :45, and how it is assembled starting at 2:30

And for that final cleaning of the ice and packed snow between the rails that could de- rail a train, what could possibly beat a jet engine blowing down on the tracks? Seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md80VPXvYxk

Brian
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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2675 on: August 07, 2017, 12:00:19 PM »
Steel reinforced concrete is outstanding in compression applications like that. And tensioning the steel inside the concrete makes it almost unbreakable. The steel can be pre- tensioned (steel put under tremendous stress and concrete cast over it) or post tensioned (steel bar put in tensile stress through a piece of concrete). I do not know but suspect those ties are exactly that.

Once a piece or pieces of steel are stressed (and it is a LOT of stress) and pulling on both ends of a piece of concrete, the assembly becomes incredibly strong in all directions, and about impervious to any low cyclical loadings, again from almost any direction. And the slick part is that it combines two very inexpensive, easy to use and produce materials that compliment each other just about perfectly; concrete is strong only in compression while steel is strong in either tension or compression but not practical to use in very large physical blocks. So tension the steel, pour the concrete around it (post tension uses cast and cured concrete, then puts steel thrugh it, pull a large stress on the steel and usually use taper- plugs to capture the steel and prevent it from returning to normal length... that generates the tension) and once it cures, it is strong in compression, tension but also very strong in resisting bending forces as well.

All of that said, I do not know how concrete ties are made but I too would think just cast blocks of concrete would split in normal use.

Brian

I was wondering about the ties. I'm surprised concrete can withstand the harmonic vibration.
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Offline Rhino

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2676 on: August 07, 2017, 01:03:20 PM »
I noticed that almost all the ties in Europe are concrete. I assumed it was due to 1) more high speed trains 2) less availability of lumber

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2677 on: August 07, 2017, 02:18:12 PM »
Concrete vs Wood

Note that concrete overshoes work better than wood overshoes such as those used in the Netherlands.  Less come backs with concrete.

http://precast.org/2010/07/railroadties-precast-concrete-or-wood/
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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2678 on: August 07, 2017, 05:44:38 PM »
Nah, concrete, or better yet, reinforced concrete (almost certainly what they are using) is stronger than wood, and much more consistent. Wood is 'all over the place' regarding properties and dependent on the very piece in front of you. Plus, there are no concrete consuming bugs of any kind. As far as I know. :-)

Unfortunately, and for better or worse, wood is a lousy material for any structural or physical demanding use. The only way around that that I know of is to chip the wood into smaller pieces and glue it all together (plywood, OSB (better), glue lams, and my personal fav, LVL's: all of these use the best part of a natural product and yield a finished product that can be counted on regarding performance, durability, vermin resistance, etc.).

Brian

I noticed that almost all the ties in Europe are concrete. I assumed it was due to 1) more high speed trains 2) less availability of lumber
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2679 on: August 08, 2017, 02:07:51 PM »
"At any rate". A common expression in English, at least American English, but I doubt many know what it means or where it comes from.

The reference and context is regarding the highly flammable (actually inflammable, which not only does not mean 'in- flammable' as in non- flammable but extremely flammable and in a bad way, as infamous means famous with a decidedly negative leaning but I digress.....) gas Acetylene. Acetylene is carbon based, just like all the other flammable fluids but adds the twist that it is a triple- bond, making it extremely energetic, and giving it the distinction of being the highest temperature burning gas. But it is unstable at pressures above 15 PSI, and it does not liquefy readily at room temperatures (as propane does, for example), making it hard to handle, store, ship and use. In fact, all pressure gauges for acetylene gas are marked in red, indicating the danger of even filling the welding hose with that gas at or above 15 PSI as it may well spontaneously breakdown and cause ignition upon contact with oxygen (from the air). Not good. Which is why when one gets a tank of acetylene filled, it is not filled to high pressure such as most welding gasses but 250 PSI. Wait, what? If it is unstable above 15 PSI, how can a tank of the stuff be pressurized to 250 PSI?

Under the heading of it ain't what you think: Acetylene is not stored in tanks as a gas but in solution inside the liquid acetone. Turns out acetone just loves the stuff and if exposed to acetylene and just a little bit of pressure, it will slurp it up like.... well, like one o' dem really impressive paper towel commercial products. So the tank is not full of acetylene but acetone that has absorbed a great deal of acetylene. But that is still not enough to make it safe as there would always be a bubble of acetylene on top of the solution of acetone below. So inside the tank there is a very porous rock fully filling the tank. The acetone is absorbed inside the porous, rigid material, and the acetylene is absorbed in the cells of acetone. And should one pore of the porous material spontaneously decompose.... no problem because the decomposition will not spread and cause an exothermic runaway condition. Whew, that was close and probably much, much more than anyone ever wanted to know about how acetylene is stored, shipped and used. And what in the hell does all this have to do with the expression 'At any rate'? Glad you asked!

Now given this tank, full of rock and the rock being full of acetone, and the acetone having acetylene gas dissolved in it, it would kind of follow that the acetylene bottle or tank must be used upright so that the gas can collect and leave the tank without taking a lot of acetone with it. Oxygen cylinders are typically laid down horizontally (any drunk will tell you, it is IMPOSSIBLE to fall down.... from the floor) so that they are easy to store and cannot fall over. But acetylene tanks MUST be used vertical, with the draw point (the valve) of the gas being the highest point. Also, because the acetone must boil the acetylene out to get the gas, there is a maximum delivery rate on each tank based on the square area of the cross section of the tank; the larger the tank, the higher the rate at which it can deliver acetylene. And the literature, instructions, etc., clearly state this information because it is important. 1) the bottle must remain upright at all times when acetylene is being drawn off and 2) do not exceed a certain rate, based on ambient temperature. Or, as it is often stated by the suppliers:

The maximum rate of acetylene delivery is shown on the chart below.

Chart here:

But, AT ANY RATE, the bottle must remain upright during acetylene delivery.

And there is the source for the expression. Now given all this, is it probably better to use a more simple expression such as 'In any event', which has a much looser meaning and no particular origin or even possibly the single word 'regardless'. Or irregardless if you want to impress your friends too.

At any rate, the world is usually more complex than it would appear at first blush.

Brian
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:01:02 PM by B.D.F. »
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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