Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: Chrome Megaphone on March 13, 2022, 02:35:58 PM
-
I gather he's no longer making it and anyway I couldn't afford it if he was. Any clues on what bike the gears come from?
-
ZG1200 - he hogs out the stock C10 housing and installs the larger gear from the zg1200. You would also require the use of a milling machine.
-
ZG1200 - he hogs out the stock C10 housing and installs the larger gear from the zg1200. You would also require the use of a milling machine.
Thanks!
If its just removing case material to clear I can do that with a die grinder and some patience.
My bike was a non-runner so I didn't have a seat of the pants baseline for gearing, put in an Eliminator bevel box, and now it runs 4500 RPM at 75 MPH. Not good considering I'm making a 3000 mile trip in May.
-
Has anyone here mounted a 160/80/16? Does it rub? A taller rear might do it, I have a spare rear wheel and could make a travelling tire/rim set.
-
I don't know the particulars but shimming the bevel gear properly in the case is critical.
Steve recently posted on the COG site that there was only about 150 of these he converted.
I think finding the Voyager gears was the limiter.
-
I don't know the particulars but shimming the bevel gear properly in the case is critical.
That's a good point. I may gather the parts and see if a local differential shop is willing to dial in the gear lash. In the meantime I'll go with the taller rear and just mosey along on the trip.
-
I'm going to take the dive and do it. Setting pinion depth and backlash isn't entry level but not rocket science either. I'm going to research the steps further but far as I know now you use Prussian Blue dye on the gears to set pinion depth in the middle of the ring gear and a micrometer gauge on a stand to dial in the lash. Will document the steps with pics and notes for anyone else that may wish to do it.
-
Section 10 of the factory manual has a bunch of info on adjusting the final drive.
-
Just for visibility, when doing pinion/ring gear interfaces, the automotive "standard" color is yellow. I've used it for doing automotive diffs and it works well. https://www.amazon.com/Richmond-Gear-5500011-Marking-Compound/dp/B000MISKMU/
-
Just for visibility, when doing pinion/ring gear interfaces, the automotive "standard" color is yellow. I've used it for doing automotive diffs and it works well. https://www.amazon.com/Richmond-Gear-5500011-Marking-Compound/dp/B000MISKMU/
Section 10 of the factory manual has a bunch of info on adjusting the final drive.
:goodpost: :chugbeer:
If Steve wants to share any tips they're appreciated.
-
To the OP: I’m just curious. Why do you feel
4500 RPM @ 75 MPH is “not good”?
-
To the OP: I’m just curious. Why do you feel
4500 RPM @ 75 MPH is “not good”?
I always travel just a bit faster than the flow of traffic.
On the gearing charts 80mph is 4800 rpms with the stock rear tire. With the 7th gear unit and wing tires I was around 4250 range. This thing is now running 80mph at a tick more rpms than I used to go 70mph. This thing purrs down the freeway at 80.
https://forum.concours.org/index.php?threads/7th-gear-mod.667/
-
I assume Kawasaki engineers targeted final gear ratios for the 55 MPH national speed limit, which also gave more responsive acceleration test numbers that every guy with a motorcycle magazine looked for. This was the mid-80's.
-
It's very unlikely that Kawasaki even considered the 55Mph limit in the USA when most other countries had 70 or even higher speed limits.
It's far more likely that the gearing was fitted to the characteristics of the engine and gearbox.
In the USA you spend a lot more time at constant speed on long runs and since you mostly ride (or rode) low revving V-twins and you are (were?) not used to having an engine doing 5k Rpm for long periods of time, so people felt they needed to lower that Rpm and Steve figured out how.
In the rest of the world we mostly start riding on 50cc or 125cc bikes so we are used to higher Rpm engines.
A friend has a '91 CBR400RR (Gullarm) that she regularly tours on. That thing is doing 7500Rpm at 80Mph (redline is 14,500RPM) and yet has managed over 110k miles and still runs great. It is hilarious watching other road users trying to figure out where the rider is as at 4'11" she disappears when hunched down behind the screen and can't be seen from behind either due to her tail-pack.
-
Where's the torque peak on a 400 lmao
-
usually at 5252. and i have a 48 yr old (modified) 70 hp 350 that will smoke most c10s up to 100.. actually up to 125. ;D I mean, you're not even halfway up to redline at 80. I never found it an issue but to each their own. Good friend of mine did similar to above on an ex250. looped the us 2x on it (also a tiny woman, maybe 5'1").
-
Maybe I'm going to find out charging $500 for this was a bit much and hence the flaming thread derailment.
-
im not sure as i haven't personally done it, but i would bet that material could be removed with a lathe with a big enough swing. that being said, let me know if you need help on that, i have a pretty big one at work that IF i can chuck it (by axle thru the hole) i can cut it.
-
Maybe just swapping the final drive for a Zg1200 will accomplish the same?
-
The seller reported that compared to a C10 unit the Venture final drive is identical in every way EXCEPT the Connie is 3mm longer :(
-
ZG1200 gears and a new pinion seal are on the way, will end posting in this thread and start a diy how-to if I'm successful.
-
The seller reported that compared to a C10 unit the Venture final drive is identical in every way EXCEPT the Connie is 3mm longer :(
3 mm longer on a Connie might mean that all you have to do is build a 3 mm shim?
The splines on the driveshaft would still be the right length.
I tried to get my head around the ratio. Out of practice.
(Using 5000 RPM/80 mph) What would the RPM's be at 80 mph with the 1200 differential?
Ride safe, Ted
-
I thought about a shim but there's the coupling sleeve and wasn't sure if the pinion-driveshaft gap would be too much. I found the ZG1200 gears and ordered a 160/80/16 to knock off a hundred RPM or two if I don't get the bevel swap done in time for the trip in May to Indy.
-
3 mm longer on a Connie might mean that all you have to do is build a 3 mm shim?
The splines on the driveshaft would still be the right length.
I tried to get my head around the ratio. Out of practice.
(Using 5000 RPM/80 mph) What would the RPM's be at 80 mph with the 1200 differential?
Ride safe, Ted
Out of curiosity sake I may get a 1200 diff in the future and investigate this approach. I replaced the final drive on my bike with a later model because of pinion seal leakage and flaking paint. Maybe I could have tried swapping gears but I gave the old one to the junk man auughh
-
#3 Reply. Has anyone here mounted a 160/80/16?
Yes, absolutely no problem on my 87!
-
I'll simply say that I bought my Connie to use in Europe, put 70K miles on it over the Alps & on Autostrada's and Autobahns. Bought the 7th gear mod when it was available and it is THE BEST mod I ever made to my Connie. 100mph at about 5500 - 6000 rpm depending on wind & grade.
-
I'll simply say that I bought my Connie to use in Europe, put 70K miles on it over the Alps & on Autostrada's and Autobahns. Bought the 7th gear mod when it was available and it is THE BEST mod I ever made to my Connie. 100mph at about 5500 - 6000 rpm depending on wind & grade.
It very well may be!
-
Maybe I'm going to find out charging $500 for this was a bit much and hence the flaming thread derailment.
HA! not even close... now you're going to find out the meaning of "be careful what you wish for". Setting up the gears is about the easiest part of this modification. Be prepared for a lot of precision measuring and machining.
Steve
-
HA! not even close... now you're going to find out the meaning of "be careful what you wish for".
If it was easy, everyone would do it.
-
Has anyone here mounted a 160/80/16? Does it rub? A taller rear might do it, I have a spare rear wheel and could make a travelling tire/rim set.
Just to be different: I installed a 180/60-16 on mine.
-
Just to be different: I installed a 180/60-16 on mine.
That's a smaller diameter (180/60-16 = 24.5" vs 25.4" for the 150/80-16) so will give higher rpm at a given speed.
You'll get a mild improvement in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile but not much.
A 160/80-16 takes that diameter up to 26.1" so will give slightly lower rpm at a given speed.
It should fit inside the rear fenders and may be enough for ya.
-
Hi Boomer. Good to see yer ugly face. <grin>
My 180/60 - 16 is "squeezed" onto the stock Connie rim (which is narrower than a 180 requires) so it is about 26" tall and about the same width as a 160/80 - 16.
NOTE: I did the install to see if it would prevent the wiggle that some of the Radial tires are doing because the 180/60 has lower/stronger side walls. (You know how I like to experiment)
The result was less wiggle but a tire profile that is similar to the roundness of a front tire.
ie; It turns in QUICKLY! I love it..
Ride safe, Ted
-
Hi Boomer. Good to see yer ugly face. <grin>
Hi Ted, at least I don't hide mine behind hair. <LOL>
My 180/60 - 16 is "squeezed" onto the stock Connie rim (which is narrower than a 180 requires) so it is about 26" tall and about the same width as a 160/80 - 16.
NOTE: I did the install to see if it would prevent the wiggle that some of the Radial tires are doing because the 180/60 has lower/stronger side walls. (You know how I like to experiment)
The result was less wiggle but a tire profile that is similar to the roundness of a front tire.
ie; It turns in QUICKLY! I love it..
The 180/60-16 normally needs a 4.5" to 5.5" wide rim and the C10 rear rim is 3.5" wide so "squeezed" is right.
I've never felt rear tyre movement on my C10 on any of the radials. What tyre pressures were you running when you felt the wiggle?
That said, I would like a smoother response to turn-in on my C10, more like my C14 with the 190/55-17 rear fitted.
At the moment it requires a bit of effort on initial turn in and then it drops fast, but freeway stability is excellent.
-
Maybe just swapping the final drive for a Zg1200 will accomplish the same?
The Rear Drive Gear PN: 42034-0002 is the same for ZG1000, ZG1200, ZG1400, and even some KZ shafty models back into the 80's, so I would think the answer to your question is no.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See: https://forum.concours.org/index.php?threads/zg1000-and-zg1400-share-same-rear-wheel-coupling.53241/ (https://forum.concours.org/index.php?threads/zg1000-and-zg1400-share-same-rear-wheel-coupling.53241/)
Part No's:
42034-1011
42034-0002 superceded 42034-1011
42034-0754 2020-2021 ZG1400 (same part? I did not find any reference to this superceding a prior part no. but have been told by a C14 owner who owns C10 and C14 that they are the same)
List by Models:
1979-1980 KZ1000 Shaft
1983-1985 KZ1100 LTD, ZN1100 LTD, KZ1100 Spectre
1983-1986 Voyager ZG1300
1985 KN1100
1985-1986 Eliminator
1986-2003 Voyager ZG1200
1986-2006 Concours 10 - ZG1000
1987-2008 Kawasaki Vulcan VN1500 - 88 - Classic - Mean Streak - Nomad - Drifter
2008-2019 Concours 14 - ZG1400
2020-2021 Concours 14 - ZG1400 (as part no: 42034-0754)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
critical thinking... if I could have accomplished the desired gearing change by just bolting on a different final drive, do you think I'd have gone through all the effort to develop the 7th gear unit?
Steve
-
or maybe he'll figure out how to do it a different way that you didn't. why the negative tone?
-
or maybe he'll figure out how to do it a different way that you didn't. why the negative tone?
How can something written have a "tone"? You hear the tone in your head, it doesn't mean I heard it when I wrote it.
Steve
-
"how can something written have a tone."
Because of the context.
"HA! not even close... now you're going to find out the meaning of "be careful what you wish for"."
I'm sure the tone may have been different to you.... But its def not how it reads to the non-author.
-
"how can something written have a tone."
Because of the context.
"HA! not even close... now you're going to find out the meaning of "be careful what you wish for"."
I'm sure the tone may have been different to you.... But its def not how it reads to the non-author.
thanks Mark, I'll be sure to send my posts to you for your approval before they are made public. You know, I have nuked threads worth of my comments because you have chosen to chase me around, and hound me. Let it go, ok?
Steve
-
or maybe he'll figure out how to do it a different way that you didn't.
Mark, you are right that there may be / is more than one way to skin the cat. I know of several approaches to fitting the zg12 gears to the zg1000 housing. I settled on the method I used successfully for apx 150 units based on 1) maintaining overall strength and longevity of the parts; 2) efficiency of using said parts so that a minimum of collars / shims / machining was necessary.
So yes, are there other methods? Sure. But also don't forget the OP did make a statement that maybe the 500.00 I charged was high (actually 450.00) . I'm quite sure if he can successfully sort this out, he won't think I was overcharging by any measure.
Steve
-
I'm just looking forward to seeing how he accomplishes his goal. Not everyone wants to cut a check even if they have no problem affording it, some just enjoy the process of figuring it out even if it takes 3x the time and 2x the cost. I was trying to encourage him in his process. that's all. 8)
-
Personally, I've had Steve's 7th gear mod for quite a few years now, and I can only repeat what I have said before;
IT IS THE BEST MOD YOU WILL EVER DO. Especially coupled with the cam timing resets, for more low-end torque. ;)
$450 ????? BEST MONEY I EVER SPENT ON MY CONCOURS. PAID FOR ITSELF MANY TIMES OVER. :) :)