Dot 5 ... Tee?

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

I used dot 5 in my suzi's back in the 80's and early 90's. thinking of giving Shoodaben the treatment. To those who are running dot 5 (Teecro ) did you notice any spongyness when you went to the dot 5? And yes, I know the proceedure - I'll be disassembling and cleaning everything before the change. THX - steve

[Charlie747]

I used dot 5 in my suzi's back in the 80's and early 90's. thinking of giving Shoodaben the treatment. To those who are running dot 5 (Teecro ) did you notice any spongyness when you went to the dot 5? And yes, I know the proceedure - I'll be disassembling and cleaning everything before the change. THX - steve

Never replace Dot 4 with Dot 5 as one is mineral and one synthetic. The seals and rubber components of your system will fail due to contamination that no amount of cleaning will remove

Spongy will be the least of your problems 

[T Cro ®]

Never replace Dot 4 with Dot 5 as one is mineral and one synthetic. The seals and rubber components of your system will fail due to contamination that no amount of cleaning will remove

Spongy will be the least of your problems 

Really? Strangely enough I've been using DOT-5 Silicone based brake fluid in my bikes since the 80's sometimes with nothing more complex than a healthy double flush with DOT-5 without any unwanted results granted a full take down and cleaning is the preferable route....

Yes Steve there will be a small amount of "softness" in the system this is due to the entrained oxygen (IIRC) molecules in the oil to which I've grown quite accustomed to the softer feel and rather like it is it allows a bit of forgiveness to ham-fisted grabs of brake without causing lock up. Once you get past the initial soft bite your brakes will be just as strong as you need them to be.

[Charlie747]

Really? Strangely enough I've been using DOT-5 Silicone based brake fluid in my bikes since the 80's sometimes with nothing more complex than a healthy double flush with DOT-5 without any unwanted results granted a full take down and cleaning is the preferable route....

Yes Steve there will be a small amount of "softness" in the system this is due to the entrained oxygen (IIRC) bubbles in the oil to which I've grown quite accustomed to the softer feel and rather like it is it allows a bit of forgiveness to ham-fisted grabs of brake without causing lock up. Once you get past the initial soft bite your brakes will be just as strong as you need them to be.

FYI

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Brake-Fluid-Explained.pdf

http://www.advancepetro.com/differentbrakefluid.htm

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Charlie, your second link specifically states that dot 5 is compatible with different rubber formulations.

I researched the Dot 5 issue before posting this; it seems the idea of seal incompatibility is a wive's tale. And if it's not, so what, I can rebuild the brakes and return to dot 4 if I so choose.

OTOH, I SAW a couple drops of Dot 4 literally shatter the fairing on a 98 connie. The owner had a couple drops get behind the windshield and he didn't remove the shield to clean it . A couple days later, the mirror broke off and a huge hole cratered into the side of the fairing, all shattered in little brittle pieces. The replacement fairing was over 500.00 plus labor. Makes brake seals seems cheap...JMO, steve

BTW, thanks Tee -

[T Cro ®]

FYI

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Brake-Fluid-Explained.pdf

http://www.advancepetro.com/differentbrakefluid.htm

Yes Charlie I'm quite aware of the information and believe me I've read the articles on brake fluids but I'll reaffirm my above comment with empirical knowledge dating back to the 80's to present day..... NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER WITH A PROPER FLUSH AND/OR CLEAN...

[Charlie747]

Yes Charlie I'm quite aware of the information and believe me I've read the articles on brake fluids but I'll reaffirm my above comment with empirical knowledge dating back to the 80's to present day..... NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER WITH A PROPER FLUSH AND/OR CLEAN...

Tony I'm not questioning your personal experience and Dot5 has worthy qualities but may be Dot 5.1 is a better street solution. 

I my experience as a Service Manager I've had experience of seal failure through in advisable alteration to manufactures O.E. Specifications and seen the high cost of failure of equipment.

May I tactfully suggest that we agree to differ on this one and enjoy the banter friendship and information sharing that this site brings ?

Charlie

Charlie, your second link specifically states that dot 5 is compatible with different rubber formulations.

I researched the Dot 5 issue before posting this; it seems the idea of seal incompatibility is a wive's tale. And if it's not, so what, I can rebuild the brakes and return to dot 4 if I so choose.

OTOH, I SAW a couple drops of Dot 4 literally shatter the fairing on a 98 connie. The owner had a couple drops get behind the windshield and he didn't remove the shield to clean it . A couple days later, the mirror broke off and a huge hole cratered into the side of the fairing, all shattered in little brittle pieces. The replacement fairing was over 500.00 plus labor. Makes brake seals seems cheap...JMO, steve

BTW, thanks Tee -

Steve I stand by my above comment and agree to differ on this one ......................but agree with you especially with regard to the corrosive qualities of Dot3/4 fluid really nasty nasty stuff

Charlie

[T Cro ®]

... May I tactfully suggest that we agree to differ on this one and enjoy the banter friendship and information sharing that this site brings ?

Sure we can agree to differ but I will still banter on that your claim of "system will fail due to contamination" just aint going to happen...

[20/20]

 

The replacement fairing was over 500.00 plus labor. Makes brake seals seems cheap...JMO,

  Failing brakes cheaper then 500.00+ labor, what happens with medical bills or possibly something worse?  Just thinking out loud here, but messing with a possible brake failure doesn't seem cheap to me at all(maybe I'm missing something).
 
  I'm not knocking switching brake fluids it may or may not be an issue. If it is an issue or even has a small percentage of failure is it really cheaper/better in the long run?

[T Cro ®]

 
  Failing brakes cheaper then 500.00+ labor, what happens with medical bills or possibly something worse?  Just thinking out loud here, but messing with a possible brake failure doesn't seem cheap to me at all(maybe I'm missing something).
 
  I'm not knocking switching brake fluids it may or may not be an issue. If it is an issue or even has a small percentage of failure is it really cheaper/better in the long run?

What your missing here is where is percentage of failure? Thus far in 30 plus years of real use I'm batting a 100 percent success rate...

To this day I've never started a thread trying to get people to switch to DOT-5 brake fluid but when the subject does come up I'll give my opinion and I will stand by it like a momma bear...

[20/20]

What your missing here is where is percentage of failure? Thus far in 30 plus years of real use I'm batting a 100 percent success rate...

To this day I've never started a thread trying to get people to switch to DOT-5 brake fluid but when the subject does come up I'll give my opinion and I will stand by it like a momma bear...

  T Cro; No disrespect intended, heck I do things all the time that are questionable.  You seem to have a heads up on this with experience, but I still have to question. If the manufacturer has proven without a doubt there is a possibility(even if it's a small percent) of failure switching fluids, then is this truly safe? To put it another way, would a kawi dealer risk their business, practicing procedures that could be unsafe? Again not saying it would not work but would someone lay millions(or even possible jail time) on the line to do it? You have 30yrs with no problems, but their is still that scientific proof that it could cause failure.  Like I wrote no disrespect intended, oil always seems to be an ongoing debate. Overall I've found folks that will be sticklers on mechanics, swear up and down to do this don't do that, than turn around and say don't pay any attention to the manufactures data, why?. I am not saying anyone on this site does this just pointing out an overall observation that I've noticed through the years.

[T Cro ®]

  T Cro; No disrespect intended, heck I do things all the time that are questionable.  You seem to have a heads up on this with experience, but I still have to question. If the manufacturer has proven without a doubt there is a possibility(even if it's a small percent) of failure switching fluids, then is this truly safe? To put it another way, would a kawi dealer risk their business, practicing procedures that could be unsafe? Again not saying it would not work but would someone lay millions(or even possible jail time) on the line to do it? You have 30yrs with no problems, but their is still that scientific proof that it could cause failure.  Like I wrote no disrespect intended, oil always seems to be an ongoing debate. Overall I've found folks that will be sticklers on mechanics, swear up and down to do this don't do that, than turn around and say don't pay any attention to the manufactures data, why?. I am not saying anyone on this site does this just pointing out an overall observation that I've noticed through the years.

Don't worry I've thick skin and perceive no disrespect nor do I'm imply any either... I'm not the only person in the world using DOT-5 fluid, perhaps I'm one of the few here that does but I know many classic car buffs who use this fluid. In fact H.D. saw fit to use DOT-5 likely for the same reasons I do in that it is not harmful to painted finish and that silicone oil has been proven to not cause detrimental results to rubber seals and such. The failure only results when the two fluids are intermixed with each other and a gel or gum results...

[kzz1king]

I have been using Dot 5 since the 70's after a bottle of dot 3 leaked into my windjammer fairing pocket! I never new at that time that you were supposed to flush or clean anything. Not sure I have ever replaced seals on that one and still ride it today. I had it in my 86 Connie and will be in my 01 soon. Might even flush it out first.
Wayne

[20/20]

Don't worry I've thick skin and perceive no disrespect nor do I'm imply any either... I'm not the only person in the world using DOT-5 fluid, perhaps I'm one of the few here that does but I know many classic car buffs who use this fluid. In fact H.D. saw fit to use DOT-5 likely for the same reasons I do in that it is not harmful to painted finish and that silicone oil has been proven to not cause detrimental results to rubber seals and such. The failure only results when the two fluids are intermixed with each other and a gel or gum results...

  I didn't sense any disrespect with your post. What is the easiest way to flush out the system, any tricks?

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Being lazy, when I do the switch on Shoodaben I'll just disassemble and clean everything before the switch. My motto is "if you don't have enough time to do it right the first time, where are you going to get the time to do it a second time?"  Steve

[T Cro ®]

  I didn't sense any disrespect with your post. What is the easiest way to flush out the system, any tricks?

Easy depends on your skill level and tools on hand as well as how long it has been in service too. When I've done a simple double flush it has been on systems that were less than 2 years old. One trick that I do still like to use today namely when dealing with a DOT-X system that is going to remain DOT-X is to suck all the old fluid out of the master cylinder with a turkey baster or miti-vac and wipe it clean before refilling it with fresh fluid. This way you get the fresh fluid into the system faster than sucking the old stuff out through the brake slaves. But truthfully for as simple as our calipers are made I would just remove them from the bike and blow the piston out with compressed air and clean everything with non-chlorinated brake cleaner; there is just a dust boot and a simple square o-ring inside the caliper.

BTW I'm the Chief Engineer on a ship so there is not much that really intimidates me so my "its easy" can be quite jaded....

[Daytona_Mike]

Very interesting. I too did a lot of research  years ago on glycol based and mineral based (5.0_ brake fluids.
I determined and maybe things have changed but friends were only using dot 5 on antique cars and antique bikes for fear of corrosion/paint issues which is a good thing BUT
Dot 5  is non-hygroscopic (which is why it doesn't need to be replaced regularly). Here in high humidity  states  I think we should use hygroscopic fluid  just in case somehow moisture did get into the closed system- basically a safety thing. Therefore  I thought at the time it was a  bad  idea to switch.
I tend to go with trends used in high performance vehicles like a  race track- If car tires are so good - race bikes would use them- if Dot 5 was so good - race bikes and race cars would use it too. Just MHO. dont shoot me and no disrespect intended. I use dot5.1
This maybe old info but it is was I went by back then: (Read this part)
DOT 5 is silicone fluid and the above does not apply. Ideally, silicone fluid should be used only to fill non-ABS systems that have not been previously filled with glycol based fluid......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid

[T Cro ®]

.... Dot 5  is non-hygroscopic (which is why it doesn't need to be replaced regularly). Here in high humidity  states  I think we should use hygroscopic fluid  just in case somehow moisture did get into the closed system- basically a safety thing....

Take a look at your service manual to see how often the factory recommends replacing the DOT-4 in our bikes; it is something like every year or every other year....

I flush my DOT-5 out at least every other year...

[Daytona_Mike]

yes Tony your are correct, I think it is every 2 years AND it says to replace all the rubber brake lines and clutch line every 4 years.
Here in Florida 2 years is too long. It will be tan to brown colored by then.
I spilled some brake fluid when I installed new pads. I pushed the pistons back in and overflowed the reservoir  onto the silver handle bar base (trippled tree) and it peeled the paint  off  before I got to it in  just a few minutes.

[T Cro ®]

yes Tony your are correct, I think it is every 2 years AND it says to replace all the rubber brake lines and clutch line every 4 years.
Here in Florida 2 years is too long. It will be tan to brown colored by then.
I spilled some brake fluid when I installed new pads. I pushed the pistons back in and overflowed the reservoir  onto the silver handle bar base (trippled tree) and it peeled the paint  off  before I got to it in  just a few minutes.

Ouch that sucks.... Even though I use DOT-5 I still vac out the master before pushing pistons in just so that I don't make a mess...