Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: bbroj on June 23, 2012, 07:36:55 PM
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Unfortunately, I missed the tech session at the National that covered pretty much exactly what I'm planning to do. There are plenty of previous threads and lots of reading, most of which just adds to my confusion. I bought 10w, because it's all the local shop had, but I want to firm up the front end, it bounces like a beach ball! I'm hoping just the age of the oil will be enough to make the difference. The bike is an '06 and the fork oil is most likely original. The shop told me I could stiffen it up a bit by adding a few cm more than what is called for. It seems reasonable to me, but rebound damping is what I believe I want to improve, not spring rate. Will new oil improve the "bouncieness" I want to fix? Also, I am thinking about changing the oil in the rear shock, anyone have a link to a procedure?
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For the shock...
Try here: http://cog-online.org/clubportal/clubstatic.cfm?clubID=1328&pubmenuoptID=29927 (http://cog-online.org/clubportal/clubstatic.cfm?clubID=1328&pubmenuoptID=29927)
I just did this to a shock I will be putting on my bike next week...it went real easy...but, I haven't ridden on it yet...
Good luck!
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Without sounding too personal, what is your normal riding weight (aprox.)? Just one up and under 200 lbs. the 10 weight oil will probably be ok. Over 200 lbs, or normally two up, I think most people go with the 15 weight oil. IIRC adding a little more fork oil will firm up the compression dampening, which can cause the ride to feel a little "firmer" but won't help with sag/droop or how much the suspension compresses when your sitting on the bike.
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Not too personal, I'm about 185 and usually ride solo. Sounds like just fresh oil should do what I'm looking for and if I wand a bit more rebound damping I can add a bit more oil to each leg, sound about right?
Thanks for the link to the rear shock procedure, I may give that a shot as well.
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From the info I got from the provided link, I won't be doing the rear shock tomorow. I thought it would use fork oil. I seem to need to get "suspension fluid".
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Murph sells a kit to do your rear shock ... http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_97&products_id=119 (http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_97&products_id=119)
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One thread I read said to check oil height with the fork compressed, the book says fully extended. Extended is easier for me, I'm doing this on the bike with a vacuum pump, which is correct?
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I've done it both ways....forks that is. The real proper way is to remove the forks completely and dump out the oil as stated in the book. But this past week I extended the forks and vacuumed out the oil to change it. The book gives you two numbers concerning the amount of oil you put into the forks, dry and wet, if you are vacuuming it out, I used the wet number as a guide, always measure though, and after you pump the forks a few times after initially adding the oil. Now, I did one fork a time, if you do both forks at the same time, you should get the front tire up off the ground to keep the forks extended and to pump them, I use a piece of wood with a small jack under the belly pan crossbrace, tie off and secure the center stand so it doesn't fold up and retract, that would not be good. I've measured extended and compressed.
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My issue is do you measure compressed or extended, and which number do you use? I will likely measure what is in there before I drain (extended), and use the number that is closest to that when I refill. Elvin's Wiki says the book changed how the measurement is taken in the post '94 bikes, but I can't find where the book (I have the Kawi manual) says that, even in the supplement. I have Murph's tipover bars, a perfect spot for jack stands and I have a method for placing them myself. I may pull the wheel and fender so I can pump each leg by hand, without having to take the bike off the stands and get it back up on the center stand without the springs helping to hold it up.
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I myself used the compressed method. Fill the forks with the initial maount of oil, no need to to remove wheel, with the bike secured grab the two forks and pump them up and down a few times, again, for me its easier to do this than remove the fender and wheel. Have a friend or use another jack and compress the fork all the way. Measure. The book tells you what number to use extended or compressed. I think the number for compressed was 155mm? About 6 inches? I can't recall the extended number, but its in the book. This is to the top of the forks, just oil, no springs or spacers, washers or emulators. Murph sells a nice measuring tool, I made one myself. Off the top of my head, I think the "wet" number for amount of oil was 322ml? Its in the book. Again, this is my method, others will chime in and add to it.
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The easiest way to drain the oil is with an air driven impact wrench. Simply remove the damper rod bolts and the oil drains out.
On an 06 model your supposed use the fully compressed method. The level should be 145mm to 150mm from the top of the tube.(no springs installed)
If your going to remove the forks and you have not replaced the seals in a while it would be a good time to do it.
That is also a good time to inspect, re-grease and adjust your steering stem. One of the most neglected and improperly adjusted parts on the bike (even when brand new)
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......On an 06 model your supposed use the fully compressed method. The level should be 145mm to 150mm from the top of the tube.(no springs installed)
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are you sure?
I don't have my book handy, but I think it's a bit more, and I pulled this from a note I sent to Greg (pfloydgad) a few months back, I know I had the book in hand when I sent this to him:
"you need to take the fill measurement with the forks compressed on your model year,
use a bungy to pull the fork sliders up and hold them up top for that. My old book is showing a level from the top of the fork, along the axis of the tube at the center, to be 171mm from the top (6.73 inches... 6-3/4" will be fine...). "
also, make sure you have enough fluid before you start...I say this because I have been there, and done that....and having to run for a second bottle sucks....
post 94 bikes take 320 ml of fluid (10.82 oz.), for each fork....so if you just bought a pint bottle, you are gonna need more.... ;)
as for the books giving 2 methods, compressed or extended, those are specific to model year, and cannot be interchanged. the forks internals differ in post 94 and pre 94. pre 94 used the fully extended measurment, post 94 uses the compressed method, and both are done with the springs out.
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I thought I read 150 or 155 in the Kawasaki manual, I know it wasn't over that. I remember cause I asked here about the conversion to U.S. from metric and it was just short of 6 inches.
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I thought I read 150 or 155 in the Kawasaki manual, I know it wasn't over that. I remember cause I asked here about the conversion to U.S. from metric and it was just short of 6 inches.
hmmmmmmm
hang tight, I have to fire up my laptop....that's where my manual lives.... be right back. ::)
ok, back, my manual has 3 supplements, in addition to it's original form, the 94-97 (A9 thru A12) section is showing 379 ml +/- 4ml of sae 10w20 oil on a fresh build, and 330ml for a "change" without complete disassembly, oil level noted as 171mm, fully compressed, without spring, spring free length should measure 543.3mm, and service limit is 533mm
the section for A15 and up (2000) specifies that there was no change in the data in the 3rd suppliments data for forks.
I don't have a hardcopy book on the 2000-2006 to refer to, if you do, I will note it in my files as such... ;)
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From the Supplement for newer forks...post '93
Capacity...379ml (+-4ml)...or 330ml at oil change
Level......171mm fully compressed without spring
And, to think...all I do is pour 330-335ml in each tube...and put 'em back together...!
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My supplement mentions nothing about compressed or extended, and the body of the book says extended. My supplement also says nothing about the longer spring length, and mine did measure close to 545mm as MOB stated, not the shorter length listed in the book. It seems I am missing a few supplements. In any case, I did my best to suck all the old oil out with a vac pump, both sides yielded about 320ml. I carefully measured 330ml (the "change" value from my book) of new oil and added it to each leg, pumped and tried to measure, with the legs extended. I say "tried" to measure as I was using an automotive oil dipstick with a tape "flag" on it as a reference. I don't have all of my tools with me (living in my RV), and a tape measure escaped being packed. I managed to measure the springs using a paper tape measure in an emergency sewing kit in one of the camper drawers! In any case it's done, I appreciate the help and hope it makes a difference in the way the bike handles. Only one short ride so far and it does seem better.
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I'm at work, so I can't check till tomorrow morning, and the tool I used is just an old rifle cleaning rod marked with a piece of tape, it may well be 171mm, but I thought it was just under 6 inches not 6 3/4 inches. But, I did use the correct amount of oil, so, its got to measure 171mm, cause I filled it to the tape mark.
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It bothered me all day about how I got the oil level switched. I looked in the Kawasaki manual, there it was 171mm, then I looked at the instruction Race Tech sent and looked at the chart in the instructions for the Concours emulator kit and there it was, "150mm" compressed no springs. So, I was going off the info Race Tech sent. Kawasaki say 171mm, Ract Tech says 150mm, I'll go with Kawasaki and drain 3/4" out of my forks, maybe thats why I've been having issues with the firmness of my front suspension?
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I see the 10w20 recommendation from Kawi. Does that mean that 10w20 motor oil will suffice and does it allow for more consistent damping in hot and cold vs say using a 15w?
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I would not use motor oil in my forks.
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Not sure if I should start a new topic or not, but this is related to my original problem. I have changed the fork oil and really don't notice any difference. So I started checking everything I could think of. Tire pressure, rear shock pressure, frame bolts, wheel bearings (just spinning the wheel, didn't remove the wheel or bearings) and everything seems ok. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the fork oil is new and spring lengths are within spec and equal. Also, no fork seal leaks. The bike feels generally "bouncy", or like it's hinged in the middle of the frame. So here's what I did find and the question that goes with it. The rear swingarm has some vertical free play, about 1/2 inch, is this normal? The play seems to come from the bolts securing the shock to the linkage and the 2 individual bolts securing the 2 pieces of the linkage to the frame. that's as close as I can tell as I,m working alone and have to lever the wheel up and down and try to see where the play is at the same time.
Ok, enough rambling, is there a free play spec for the swingarm?
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There should be no measureable freeplay. It appears your suspension linkage bearings are worn out. Pull it all apart and check them, if they are no good replace them with bronze bushes. Bronze bushes are better in this installation and cost way less than the bearings that can only be gotten from Kawasaki. For more details see post below.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=6061.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=6061.0)
Regards, Russell
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Thanks, I hope I have the problem and the fix for my handling issues in hand! My free play is vertical, not lateral (at least not that I can perceive). But looking over the thread you linked to and the diagrams in the book, I can see where the bearings are located in the assembly and that you are quite correct, there should be no free play. My biggest problem now is that I'm not where my tools and and vise versa.
As a side note, there may be a "kit" opportunity here for Murph...
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Hey Blaise. My garage and tools are open to you if you need them. I'm over here in Fuquay Varina not too far away if you recall. I'm normally around the house or close to home so just let me know if you'd like to take advantage. I don't think I'll be doing much over the upcoming holiday period as far as leaving town so most any time/day is probably doable. Just shoot me a message or you can email me at mlfagan73 at hotmail.
Marlan
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Thanks, Marlan. I may be taking you up on that, but probably not as soon as the holiday as I need to get the parts. The primary tools I know I'm lacking are a grease gun and a torque wrench. I want to have the new/replacement bushings in hand before tackling the job of tearing it all apart. What I discovered is if I "hug" the bike's rear wheel, face down on the seat facing the back of the bike, arms draped down each side with my fingers laced through the rear wheel, I can move the wheel up and down nearly 1/2 inch. Appearantly, this is NOT normal or good!
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A torque wrench is one thing I don't have. I always just torque by feel. Just let me know if and when you need to do the work. I normally work from home and weekends usually don't involve big plans so I'm close by most of the time.
Marlan
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Hey Blaise most parts stores have loner programs. Hell I have two or three 1/2" and 3/8" torque wrenches. Just give me the word and one of them will be headed your direction (I might even put a special edition of Rider magazine in the box)
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Thanks, Chris! I just remembered the loaner programs myself, that's the way I will go. I have 1/2 and 3/8" torque wrenches in my tool box, but that is 700 miles away :( The only torque wrench I brought here with me is 1/4" drive, I doubt it is within the range I will need for this project. I need to collect the parts first, then I will set aside some time and get this done. It seems I can grease and adjust the swingarm bearings without the need for parts, so that will probably be this weekend. The shock linkage bushing replacement is another story, I need to get the bushings first and someone mentioned a seal that I need to go back and re-read to be sure I have it on hand. I also see a little weeping where the swing arm meets the final drive, not sure what kind of seal is there, but that needs to be replaced as well. Hmm, the swing arm needs to come out for the bushings to be replaced for the shock linkage, not much sense in adjusting the swingarm ahead of time...
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Hmm, the swing arm needs to come out for the bushings to be replaced for the shock linkage, not much sense in adjusting the swingarm ahead of time...
The swingarm does not need to be removed to install the bushings into the suspension linkage.
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Cool! That may give me something to do today, lube and adjust the swingarm! I thought I had read that the swingarm had to come out to do the bushings, thanks Tcro. Someone handed me a HF flyer yesterday and there is one nearby. They are running a special on torque wrenches, $12.99. For that price it's worth it even if it fails after a few uses. I have not looked carefully at this job, but I do know there is a "special tool" refered to in the book for setting the swingarm torque and locking the adjuster. Is it necessary or is there a simple work around?
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Cool! That may give me something to do today, lube and adjust the swingarm! I thought I had read that the swingarm had to come out to do the bushings, thanks Tcro. Someone handed me a HF flyer yesterday and there is one nearby. They are running a special on torque wrenches, $12.99. For that price it's worth it even if it fails after a few uses. I have not looked carefully at this job, but I do know there is a "special tool" refered to in the book for setting the swingarm torque and locking the adjuster. Is it necessary or is there a simple work around?
You can work around the special tooling.... I don't recall how I did mine when I installed the the 7th gear so it must have been fairly easy.
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Great, thanks again. It seems to me like a large (1/2'drive) socket with a smaller (1/4') extension through the middle to hold the adjuster in place may work, if that is even the setup (I'm picturing something like the valve adjusters). As long as you are willing to use vise-grips on the outside of the large socket...
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You can work around the special tooling.... I don't recall how I did mine when I installed the the 7th gear so it must have been fairly easy.
i think that tool had a square drive stub for the socket, with a hole runing thru it so you can insert an allen key (6mm?) to hold the center bolt, and the stup was part of a flat bar with an offset square hole for the torque wrench to drive.
I think you can get away with using a torque wrench, with a "crow foot" end wrench (again, not sure of the hex size) attached, and this will give access to the center bolt.
looks kinda like this (http://images2.mcmaster.com/Contents/gfx/large/5845a13p1l.png?ver=30896614)
Honestly I can't remember doing this procedure myself....my bad.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#drive-sockets/=i7dbx8 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#drive-sockets/=i7dbx8)
I think a lot of auto parts stores have loaner sets also.
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So after a long day tinkering with the bike, I have accomplished a few things and have come up with more questions than answers. I pulled the swingam, cleaned and packed the bearings, checked for fee movement and lateral play. All seems good, but I still need to gather the tools for a proper bearing adjustment. While I was in there, I looked at the shock linkage needle bearings and the bolt surfaces, they look great, really, nearly no signs of wear. That's good, except I have vertical movement in the swingarm when the linkages are all hooked up. It looks like the play is actually from the interface of the shoulder bolt and the dog bone linkages, where there is no bearing or bushing. Is any play here acceptable, or do I need new dog bones?
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.... except I have vertical movement in the swingarm when the linkages are all hooked up. It looks like the play is actually from the interface of the shoulder bolt and the dog bone linkages, where there is no bearing or bushing. Is any play here acceptable, or do I need new dog bones?
When I fitted the 6 bronze bushings in place of the needle bearing to my bike I also drilled the dog bone in a vertical mill and then hand fitted a bushing to remove that same slop. If I recall there was about half a millimeters worth of slop around the bolt. I will not say that it NEEDED to be done but I wanted it done.
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Interesting. No I'm wondering if I have found my handling issue at all. The needle bearings look good and so do the bolts, the swingarm bearings also looked fine and I repacked them. Do you think that minor amount of play that you discovered in yours, which is probably about what I have, but of course the added length of the swingarm etc makes it to about 1/2 inch at the wheel, would affect the handling of the bike?
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In my opinion that slop is not your handling issue as the slop for the most part go away when you put weight on the bike. The biggest thing I noticed with installing the bushings was just a smoother feeling in the rear end; no more squeeks.... If your still running a stock front end and OE air shock the bike will NEVER ride worth a hoot.
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Ok, so instead of trying to find a problem to explain why my bike doesn't seem to be handling well, just keep adding farkles and upgrades? :o I like it! :thumbs: Seriously, though, it seems that something has changed, unless my ability has inproved enough to pick up on sublties that I couldn't before. I like to believe I am improving as a rider, but I'm not convinced it's my perception that has changed instead of the bike. The next group of upgrades I believe to be pricy, and I'm not in a position to be doing those at this time (ZRX front end, new rear shock). I may see if I can find a reasonably priced fork brace and see what that does to improve the situation. It seems the bike wallows when leaned over, so maybe a difference in the fork legs would explain that.
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What tires are you using?
If you can find a ZZR rear shock without breaking your bank it is a great improvement over the stocker.
Replace the fork oil and springs with straight rate and find a fork brace.
This will have the most bang for the buck and if you move on the a ZRX front end later your money will not be a total loss as I had no problem selling off everything that I replaced on my bike in building it to my taste.
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Tires are Avon Storm up front and a Shinko 777 out back. The Shinko is relatively new and has seemed to handle my riding very well, I never even considered it as a possible handling issue. I don't give myself credit for being perceptive enough to know if this is a front end, rear end, frame or other issue, which is why I'm inspecting everything. It doesn't feel like something a tire would cause, but again, I could be wrong. Another rider I know (Outback_Jon) is running the Shinko and happy with it. Jon is a bigger rider and more agressive than I am, so I don't suspect the tire. I will look for a fork brace and see what deals I can get on suspension upgrades one piece at a time until it's time to upgrade the bike and start all over again!
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What tires are you using?
If you can find a ZZR rear shock without breaking your bank it is a great improvement over the stocker.
Replace the fork oil and springs with straight rate and find a fork brace.
This will have the most bang for the buck and if you move on the a ZRX front end later your money will not be a total loss as I had no problem selling off everything that I replaced on my bike in building it to my taste.
TCro, I appreciate you sticking with me through this, and your questions have brought me back to troubleshooting 101, "what was the last thing you changed?" For me, that would be the rear tire, and while it didn't dawn on me at the time, that is about the time I seem to recall issues starting. One thing I did not realize when I purchased the Shinko is that it is a bias ply to the Avon radial in the front. I know people have mixed tire construction types with no ill effects, some even prefer it, but it is still a possibility for what I am experiencing. Not wanting to go out and buy another rear tire, I will wait the short time until my front needs to be replaced and get the matching Shinko for the front and see if that changes things. I left the Avons due to short life and high cost, but I may be back next time around.