Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: sgilbert14 on October 14, 2013, 03:42:28 AM
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Back again with more issues with the 92'. I have done the following - carbs rebuilt, cleaned again after putting a new liner in the tank, plugs, wires etc.. and now the bike turns over but doesn't want to start. IT doesn't matter if I use the tank or my aux bottle for gas.. it turns aver great but doesn't start nor act like it wants to.. I am lost as to what may be the cause of this... someone mentioned the CDI box but? Any ideas or directions?
Thanks
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did the bike fire before you removed the carbs, plug wires etc.?
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Spark at the plugs? Plugs wires going to the correct plugs?
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A few guesses:
1) gas in the carbs? You can check gas level with a bit of plastic hose on the drain nipple, whilst opening the drain screw a bit.
2) is there spark?
3) plug wires hooked up right? left coil drives cylinders 1 & 4, right coil drives 2 & 3, cylinders numbered from left to right.
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3) plug wires hooked up right? left coil drives cylinders 1 & 4, right coil drives 2 & 3, cylinders numbered from left to right.
Left Coil to Plugs 1 & 4 with Coil plugged into black and red wires.
Right Coil to Plugs 2 & 3 with Coil plugged into green and red wires.
Be sure that the coils are well grounded via the black with yellow wire.
Battery well charged? A weak battery may spin the motor but not leave enough voltage to fire the coils.
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Plug and coils are correct, good spark, gas in the bowels but when I pulled the plugs after trying to start they are bone dry like there is no gas getting to them... Thanks for the help
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... gas in the bowels...
I hate it when that happens. I'm no expert, but that's probably your problem..
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When you cleaned the carbs, did you clean the start jets as well as the pilots and mains? The very small (.025") start jets are critical to good starting, as are the enrichener circuits.
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I actually had the dealer do them, should have sent them back to Steve. I have no problem doing it myself if I knew how to set them again.
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I actually had the dealer do them, should have sent them back to Steve. I have no problem doing it myself if I knew how to set them again.
:yikes:
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I only had the dealer even look at them for the hope of having them back the next day for a ride that I wanted to do for the weekend....... :'( :'( Never made it to the ride and now I still want to send them back to ya Steve.... Season is about over and only rode the bike 4x... I did get a nice new tank liner in it so no more of the brown gas... I have the Plastifix kit for the tab now as well.
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I guess I am missing something, what tab?
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I guess I am missing something, what tab?
Broken cowling mount tabs? Very common with past owners who had a case of the drops!
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Oh, I was trying to figure how that related to not starting.
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Do you know how to do the clear tube method of checking fuel levels in the carb bowls? The center carbs would be hard to do on the bike, but the outer two could be checked pretty easily. Don't forget to put the tank on prime, or use an aux bottle. If that looks about right, cool. If the major change is just that the dealer worked on them, I'd guess they might have screwed up the job.
If it ran just before all this, I doubt the black box has gone tango uniform in the mean time.
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If it ran just before all this, I doubt the black box has gone tango uniform in the mean time.
:rotflmao:
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The reason the "box" was brought up was that I had to jump start the bike at work right before all the trouble started..
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Did bike run well before the work was done? If you had to jump bike, maybe the spark is weaker now because the battery is iffy and that's not helping the situation.
Do you know how to do the clear tube method? You can get a rough idea if you're in the ballpark with carbs still on bike - center carbs a just a tad more difficult to reach but I use a long handle needle nose plier to grab near the tube end and push it in place, then route to the outside carb seam to check.
Where are you located - maybe another member is close and can help?
I actually had the dealer do them, should have sent them back to Steve. I have no problem doing it myself if I knew how to set them again.
Set what?
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I will check stuff out and hope. Season is about shot and I am think of just giving this year up.
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Set I mean the jet settings once I pulled them to make sure they are clean. I am think more of back to Steve over the winter to have ready fro spring
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I did these carbs. They were right. They were put back on the bike, ran for 250 miles and then a piece of trash got in a needle seat, holding it open. That's when the dealer got involved, removed the trash and reset the fuel float, which I'm sure should not have been done.
There was alot of rust in the carbs when I got them, I guess it was after the miles that the tank was addressed. Am I correct on this?
IF it's the carbs, here's some thoughts. 1) if the airbox isn't on, the bike won't start, don't know if it is or not.
If the tank sealant wasn't fully cured it can get into the carbs - I had a set that were full of the epoxy - and that could cause this.
I also think the FIRST thing you should do - before messing around with the carbs and creating more issues - is to find out if it even has spark. I'll gladly check the carbs out as I offered before, but please stay out of them, you're not going to make anything better in there, trust me - Steve
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:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Hi Steve, You did everything with the carbs that I could have wanted. My issues came from the tank and not your work. I would never have even hinted at that. The old liner look good at first glance but it was only after I borrowed a scope that I found that the back of it was falling down and filled with rust. This was after the 250 miles and the leaking overflow on carb 4. Into the dealer who said they found a piece of cloth in them - big questions to this fact? I only took them to the shop because they said that they would have them back in 2 days they did but it never ran since that day- 2 huge mistakes. All me - none you.
I did the liner right. Bought the Kreem large tank kit, followed all the directions and gave it 6 days to cure. The linker was like steel so I know that it is solid. Now, I would like to send them back to have them brought back from dealer death. The only think that I did to them myself was clean the bowls before they went to the dealer. Now, it may be early Spring when I send them down as the season up here is over, but down they will go as the should have the first time. The only part I checked was the bowls for rust, changed the bowl gaskets with the Kawasaki ones. Nothing else.
My mistakes include:
1) Only looking through to opening when I checked the tank using a small mirror - should of spent the $ and did them liner while the carbs we at Steve's.
2) Bringing them to the dealer after the bowl overflowed.
3) Putting the carbs back on the bike thinking that the second filter was enough.
4) Cleaning the bowls thinking that that was the issue.
5) Not listening to Steve about the tank in the first place as my tank inspection was crap.
Things that I have done - not messing with carbs
Checked and the spark is good.
Battery is holding a charge but I still need to test the voltage levels.
Checked the grounds, connections etc.. as I had all the plastics off to rebuild the Tabs using the Plastifix.
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OK, this really could be the tank liner issue. I hope not, because it almost impossible to clean up, but let me explain.
the time I dealt with this was just a few months ago, and the tank sealant job was done by a very professional COG member, an engineer, a very thorough person. He also let it dry for more than the prescribed time, but the problem came from pools of sealant in the very lowest points on the sides of the tank. Those pools are deep, and not cured.
Todays gas is loaded with cleaning agents. I know, because Shell V power ate JBWeld epoxy i put in my intake ports back on 06, which was unscathed by gas back then. It'll eat the epoxy, and it gets in the carbs and gums everything up with a thin seal over the jets.
Also, let me say I posted up the first post because the help you were getting, though good, didn't have the benefit of the knowledge I had of the situation. I posted because you were going to go down the rabbit hole and not accomplish anything, and I just wanted to stop the bleeding before it gets bad.
Send the carbs back to me. Send them this winter. Soon, while I'm not slammed - not in the springtime! Let me see if they're the issue, if epoxy is the culprit, and you can at least get a plan together to get your bike running for next year. HTH, Steve
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Thank you Steve. I just wanted to make sure you knew that I your work was top notch. The tank job I did the same as the gut you knew. Everything in the directions I added 20% to and dried the tank between step long term with a hair dryer to make sure.. For the bike work, I hate doing carb stuff.. I can tear a car down and rebuild like I did when I turn my Mazda from and auto to a std because someone bet me I could not do it and not get any engine lights,,, sold the car 2 years later no lights... carbs I just do not like to play with... I will get them to you and you can take you time with them... I have a huge list to do on the bike prior to spring anyway.
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Hey Steve, I pulled that carbs before storing the bike so I will get them to you over the winter.
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now is good! Steve
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Hi Steve, Cash is a bit tight due to the car needed new struts but I will get them down as soon as I can. Rough idea of $$ maybe? Steve
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Hi Steve, Cash is a bit tight due to the car needed new struts but I will get them down as soon as I can. Rough idea of $$ maybe? Steve
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/products-and-pricing (https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/products-and-pricing)
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Hi Steve, Cash is a bit tight due to the car needed new struts but I will get them down as soon as I can. Rough idea of $$ maybe? Steve
Just send them, let me see what's going on before we worry about cost. might not even be the carbs, who knows at this point. Steve
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I will see what I can do to get them to you soon. thanks
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Just send them, let me see what's going on before we worry about cost. might not even be the carbs, who knows at this point. Steve
Steve, you are a good man. Hat is off to you.
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Better than good as I was giving up on the bike.. hope for the spring and a new interest in finishing my build
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So where are you now with this Connie and its problems?
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The carbs are with Steve. The bike is in hibernation and I have plane for a paint job when she wakes... It has been a long summer without the bike but I have plans for some rides the next season.
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Well, the carbs showed up today. I have only given them a cursory exam, so far I see the idle adjustment all the way in, so the throttles are opened maybe 1/8"; the vacuum cap on the #3 carb (the only cap) is cracked and vacuum leaking, and the slides are almost stuck down, like they're glued down. The owner had done a tank sealant, I think it's on the slides and gluing them. If that's the case, it's not going to be fun trying to fix it, epoxy is hard to clean off, and the diaphrams are very fragile. It's easy to determine what's new issues, I just did these carbs earlier this year, and I know what was / wasn't up with these carbs. I'll report back after further investigation. Steve
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:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Bubba, POR 15 company has stuff that will dissolve "Kreem", if you need it.... ;)
http://www.por15.com/POR-Strip_p_20.html (http://www.por15.com/POR-Strip_p_20.html)
it comes in this kit also..
http://www.por15.com/HEAVY-DUTY-CYCLE-TANK-REPAIR-KIT_p_60.html (http://www.por15.com/HEAVY-DUTY-CYCLE-TANK-REPAIR-KIT_p_60.html)
for those that have had Kreem fail.
I personally would never use Kreem, too many horror stories.
My Z bike tank was done using POR, and it is holding fine after 10 years...
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So carbs are apart, and let me say, this is why you don't let folks who don't know what they're doing work on your carbs. Not only did I find the above issues, but also when I closed the throttle blades, the sync was all off, telling me there was a vacuum issue but someone tried to "fix" it with the sync. additionally, the pilot screws, which I set at 2 turns, were all 2.3 to 2.5 turns. Once inside the bowls, more fun, as you can see from the pics, someone re-set the fuel floats, which resulted in low fuel levels ( I filled / checked before disassembly). When looking at the pics, the caliper is set at the proper height, you see how high the float height is. They also used black RTV to set the bowl gaskets and it was off in little bits in the bowls - you cannot use rtv on carbs! Once checking the pilot and main jets, they're all clogged with something. I guess the problem is the carbs... Steve
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the email... I had the dealer work on these and the only thing that I did was to replace the bowl gaskets. Here they said that the reset the bowels and cleaned them to make sure that there were no dirt in them.. expensive lesson that I should have sent them back to you instead of thinking that saving time in shipping was ok. Stupid!
So, what are we dealing with... Are the parts that you put in still ok? I understand that that everything needs a good cleaning, adjusting etc.. but what else are they going to need?
Send me a pm and let me down easy with the price. Time is not an issue as there is a ton of stuff going on in my life with work and possible relocation so I will need to work this out cause I do want my bike for next season..... promise that no one will ever touch carb on my bike ever again except for Steve in Sunny Fla..
Steve
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pm sent - Steve
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This is easy. Sgilbert, get your butt over to the 'For Sale' thread and offer $85 (or more!) via PayPal and build a spare set or just canabilize the parts you need -- except pilots. I think I'm convinced that previously plugged pilots are more prone to re-plugging. Not sure $40 from Gary is the best deal, but am sure that new pilots work very, very well.
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This is easy. Sgilbert, get your butt over to the 'For Sale' thread and offer $85 (or more!) via PayPal and build a spare set or just canabilize the parts you need -- except pilots. I think I'm convinced that previously plugged pilots are more prone to re-plugging. Not sure $40 from Gary is the best deal, but am sure that new pilots work very, very well.
get serious.
if you think he could do this rebuild, or you could for that matter (just judging by the way you suggest it..) you have a LOT of learning to do.
Fun if you have the time, and the patiance to attempt it, but frutile if you expect the outcome to be right first go.
I'm standing back and saying this because both Steve and I are good friends, and both have paid major "dues to sing the blues" when it comes to downright being able to rip them down, and put them together in a couple hours.... and slap them on a bike, look sidways at a customer, hit the start button..... and have the bike fire, and run.... and then, when we put the synch tubes on, and touch a screwdriver to the adjustments, say it was perfect without tweaking a thing, and call it done....I've done this in front of a crowd, and as they slowly drifted away over the hours it took to complete, the end result was the same... the owner stood and hit the button, and the bike ran..... perfectly.
I say this with all earnest, there is nobody out there that has this talent that I still today keep secret, other than Steve, and truthfully, he has much more patiance than I do.Today, I just work on my own $#!+, he is willing to take on the other ones, just be thankfull wayyyyy back when, when I ditched being the "COG Tech Dude" that he decided not to take the position, because he has scruples, and wouldn't do it knowing it would be controversial. :thumbs: :thumbs:
Thumbs up to you Steve, can't wait till we can sit and discuss the year at the ralley ;) :hail:
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If I did learn anything out of all this that is carb work should be left to the specialist. Not saying that, in time, I could possibly learn this, but my experience with the dealership who has a shop and the right tools, prove to me that everything related to ZG carbs will go to Steve. I do fine art painting and now understand that like in art, learning is nothing more then years of making the errors that lead to knowledge. Like stated above, Steve has the years and the knowledge and I will forever use it when needed.
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They also used black RTV to set the bowl gaskets and it was off in little bits in the bowls - you cannot use rtv on carbs!
Even as an Engineer on sea/ocean going tugs and ships working on equipment as varied as the alphabet RTV is my LEAST used sealant; it can just about be counted on to cause problems if not used correctly and by correctly I mean sparingly.....
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My intent was to note that a collection of the most expensive parts (slides in particular) were readily available right now, and wouldn't be for very long.
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So carbs are apart, and let me say, this is why you don't let folks who don't know what they're doing work on your carbs. Not only did I find the above issues, but also when I closed the throttle blades, the sync was all off, telling me there was a vacuum issue but someone tried to "fix" it with the sync. additionally, the pilot screws, which I set at 2 turns, were all 2.3 to 2.5 turns. Once inside the bowls, more fun, as you can see from the pics, someone re-set the fuel floats, which resulted in low fuel levels ( I filled / checked before disassembly). When looking at the pics, the caliper is set at the proper height, you see how high the float height is. They also used black RTV to set the bowl gaskets and it was off in little bits in the bowls - you cannot use rtv on carbs! Once checking the pilot and main jets, they're all clogged with something. I guess the problem is the carbs... Steve
What a mess.
The most challenging aspect of being a professional mechanic is not fixing things, it is "refixing" things someone else tried to fix.