Finally had the valves checked

[DaddyFlip]

WHOA! Them's fightin' words right there. Are you saying they rubber stamped the greasy fingerprints too? Good thing PH decided he had the last word earlier.

For my part, if I don't think I can DIY the valves with the service manual and Freds videos, I will take my bike to him or Steve for the job. I'm going to practice on my ZR7 first in the near future.

[maxtog]

 

[DaddyFlip]

...rainbows and unicorns

[VirginiaJim]

 

[B.D.F.]

Yeah, this is a 'flak- catching' topic sometimes :-)  I guess it falls into the category of "We all know....." [that mechanics do not perform this job correctly, if at all].

I checked my own valve lash and found it w/in tolerance at 25K miles though a couple were on the edge. When checked them again at 50K miles, I found one that had been on the edge (tight) actually loosened up by 0.0005" and was therefore closer to the middle of the tolerance band. I am sure I did it correctly and have valid data but certainly some will doubt my findings also- starting with Kirby! 

Brian

And this is why I hesitated to post this. I know the mechanic well. I know he did the job, and he honestly wrote down the results. I'm sorry you all have not found someone you can trust, there are so many bad ones out there, I know. That is why I normally do all my own work. Unfortunately this time I couldn't due to time constraints. I've known Ken for 20 years. He is not at a Kawasaki dealership, but I go to him because he is good at what he does, and he does it right, or he would't touch my bike.

That's all I have to say about this.

[elektradw]

I noticed an oil leak from my valve cover gasket at 95,000 miles. It was covered under warranty. While they were in there I suggested they check the valve clearances and replace the plugs, all for the very first time. I simply would not spend the money to get the valves checked every 15k or replace plugs at 7,500 as the manual requires. The mechanic was a former race car engine builder and I was told he was the right mechanic for the job. Needless to say I feared anyone taking my engine apart. He documented all the valves on paper and found all intake valves well in spec. Only one exhaust valve was out at .005. However, he decided after exhaust cam removal that adjusting all exhaust valves to center was easy enough to do. Seven out of eight exhaust valves and all intake valves were still in spec and this is after 95K. He also replace the plugs with ones I supplied even though the plugs removed were functioning and still usable.

Im not proposing anyone deviate from what they would consider to be necessary maintenance. Just sharing a documented and trustworthy job done by a competent mechanic on a high milage Concours. I bought the plugs online at 50k with the thought of replacing them myself. I have been wrenching my cars and motorcycles for the past 45 years but decided replacing plugs on this bike was way too much of a pain in the butt. Forget about doing a valve adjustment myself, I would not even attempt it. I still find it hard to comprehend going through the tedious and dangerous steps of removing cams and adjusting valves that are in spec just to put them all in the center or loose end of spec.

[maxtog]

I noticed an oil leak from my valve cover gasket at 95,000 miles. It was covered under warranty.

Cool!  Love that extended warranty

While they were in there I suggested they check the valve clearances and replace the plugs, all for the very first time. I simply would not spend the money to get the valves checked every 15k or replace plugs at 7,500 as the manual requires.

You are certainly not alone.

The mechanic was a former race car engine builder and I was told he was the right mechanic for the job. Needless to say I feared anyone taking my engine apart.

Again, not alone.  So many dealers are unfamiliar with the C14- it is SIMILAR to the ZX14, but even more complex.  Variable valve timing, shaft drive, extra sensors, extra wiring and features, different plastics, etc.  Even the ZX14 is not a huge seller.  I am surprised you didn't ask for a throttle body sync too (I would have, even knowing it is probably just fine).

He documented all the valves on paper and found all intake valves well in spec. Only one exhaust valve was out at .005. However, he decided after exhaust cam removal that adjusting all exhaust valves to center was easy enough to do. Seven out of eight exhaust valves and all intake valves were still in spec and this is after 95K.

Yep.  That actually mirrors many other posts (but certainly not all)- intake being fine and exhaust being too tight by a little.  I imagine that if you have to go through the effort of taking out the cam shaft to adjust one valve, it really does make sense to adjust them all to center at that point (since that part is easy).  Actually, on the exhaust, it might make more sense to adjust them all to the loose side of in-spec (knowing they will, again, tighten over time)?

He also replace the plugs with ones I supplied even though the plugs removed were functioning and still usable.

And yep again, I am wondering now if I have ever seen ANY posting from ANYONE that has found ANY spark plug that EVER needed replacement at ANY mileage or age in a C14 (excluding the very rare case of obvious engine problems).
 

I have been wrenching my cars and motorcycles for the past 45 years but decided replacing plugs on this bike was way too much of a pain in the butt. Forget about doing a valve adjustment myself, I would not even attempt it.

+1 x 2!  As I have posted elsewhere, no way I could do it myself, and I don't trust my local dealer enough.  Waiting for my mechanic friend to do it with me at some point.  I am at something like 25K miles now and I am in no rush (although I have a long list of other things I want to do with a major servicing so I will try to get it all done at once- valve check, lubing, bolt tightening, brake and clutch fluid flush/replace, coolant replace, clean rotors, clean/free bobbins, add a radiator guard, reclean/lube the gas cap AGAIN, throttle body sync, etc;  I probably shouldn't wait on the brake fluid, though).

Thanks for sharing the info, the more people post their experiences, the better.

[Daytona_Mike]

However, he decided after exhaust cam removal that adjusting all exhaust valves to center was easy enough to do.

Please go back and tell your mechanic  the next time  he does a valve adjust to not adjust to 'Center' .
They should be adjusted/targeted to the maximum spec.

[elektradw]

You would have to show me some documentation that adjusting valves to the loose end is preferable to center, because that makes no sense to me. Spec is spec and if they are at the loose or tight end I doubt very much it matters or could be detectable performance wise. But then again, you may have some engineering or physics documentation on this subject that I hope you would share. Certainly the maintenance schedule in the manual for plugs and valves is quite ridiculous.

As far as throttle body sync, they are synced at the factory and sealed. Why would I want to disturb them? I guess if I really enjoyed wrenching and had the time on my hands and I was looking for things to do it would be different, but I have never heard of the valve lash on any Connie being so severely out of spec that a valve would not close and burned causing major damage. My one out of spec exhaust valve at .005 still had a long way to go before that scenario would unfold. Again, Im not here to criticize or recommend just stating my experience with this bike and latest dealer service.

[Daytona_Mike]

Most  mechanics already know this. It is common knowledge. You must have heard the saying: "Tappy valves are happy valves"
Read here (just one of many references when googled):
http://www.zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=D659042A-D56B-84E2-1C5A7BC825184613
The rule to adjusting valve clearance is to always adjust to looser spec rather than tighter when a choice or a judgement presents itself. The reason is that valve clearance will always get tighter over time as the valves wear.


For this reason I think it is wrong for a dealership to 'look' at the valves and tell you they are all in spec. That is a waste of money. If your going to pay all that money to have it 'looked at' then  they  should complete the job correctly and reset the gaps to the maximum specifications so you can go many more miles before the gaps get too small and they always get smaller. When your engine was built the manufacturer sets them towards the max spec- not the middle or the center.
You take it to the dealer and the gaps are all small and   they tell you  it is ' in spec'  because they are.  In reality they are  close to the tight side but still not out of spec.
Tomorrow or a few  thousand miles later the gap(s) become tighter and now  they are out of spec.

Does this make sense now? Do not tell them to 'check' your valves so you can be charged for a 'look'.
  Tell them you want your valves 'adjusted closest to the max spec''

Reminds me of the commercial about the Dental Monitor.

[Fairfax]

I see that most Concours riders report here that valve clearance will get tighter probably due to loss of metal at guides and seat area. However, I have personal experience with valve clearances to become looser in other motors. I assume this was due to carbon build up but I never opened the top end on these engines to see it with my eyes. I wonder if carbon build up and/or valves getting looser has ever happened to a Concours rider in this forum.

[MAN OF BLUES]

is this on an '08 or an '11??? it really doesn't matter. tho.

I don't care what end of the 'spec" you adjust them to, I call B/S on the whole thing.. total B/S.. and synch? nahhh you don't need that either... tires? pressure? nah... not a problem...


you simply cannot tell us here, that have dealt with this bike for 9 years, your valves were within spec..

B/S.

sorry.
I would never take any advice from you, or believe in your mechanic.

[Daytona_Mike]

Carbon buildup  does occur  but mostly on the older carburated C10's when they are not maintained properly. I have a boroscope and you can see it with that.
  YOu dont normally see looser  gaps from wear unless the cams are wearing out due to bad or oil starvation and if that is the case- you got bigger problems than valve gaps.
Also  it does happen where a valve drops buts is very rare. I have seen  many bikes- dirt  and quad  and C10's with low and no compression because the valves where not adjusted.
I am sure there are C14's loosing compression due to tight valves but many owners dont even notice.

[Daytona_Mike]

ROFL.. MOB is very subtle..you have to read between the lines.

[MAN OF BLUES]

ROFL.. MOB is very subtle..you have to read between the lines.

everything is perfect...

ohcrap its afu

no problemo... bill paid...all good, head in sand...


yeah, I think i got the between the lines thing worked out...

[maxtog]

It is hard to believe anything that comes from some dealers and mechanics.  There is a huge temptation with things like "valve clearance check/adjust" to pocket the lots of money with doing the least amount of work possible.  It is not like the owner is going to be able to verify what was or wasn't done or likely notice ANY change in the behavior or performance of the engine (other than placebo effect).  This is the reason why our sharing information here can be useful.... especially when it is information about jobs done by the owner, himself.  I kinda wish I kept a spreadsheet of the findings from every post over the years, categorized by year, mileage, who did it, what kind of riding, how many times the check has been done, etc.

[kwakrider]

I see that most Concours riders report here that valve clearance will get tighter probably due to loss of metal at guides and seat area. However, I have personal experience with valve clearances to become looser in other motors. I assume this was due to carbon build up but I never opened the top end on these engines to see it with my eyes. I wonder if carbon build up and/or valves getting looser has ever happened to a Concours rider in this forum.

In saying "other" motors you must obviously mean older motors....other than the Concours! These motors have under bucket shims, so as any wear takes place the clearances get smaller, not larger....always!! Have to agree with you maxtog...most stealers/mechanics take full advantage, and as you say...do nothing but charge for it all the same. I fortunately do keep a detailed speadsheet/record of what has been done etc., seeing I'm the only one who has ever worked on my Concours!! 

[elektradw]

Sorry MOB I still dont buy your or DM's assumptions. Saying that "all" mechanics know that valves should be adjusted to be "happy" is ridiculous. I would need physics and proof that valve lash decreases with time and is dangerous. Wear on the buckets or cams would induce a loosening of valve lash not tightening. Well we could have this discussion well into the night. I firmly believe when the engine manufacturer set SPECS that any value within those margins are right for the engine. This obsession with loose valve lash is just not logical. Sorry to disagree. Too many owners are obsessed with valve lash when they need to just ride and enjoy the machine. Just because you are a shade tree mechanic and have owned a Concours for 9 years and you are among those who have drunk the kool aid you don't convince me at all. If you believe in what you preach that is great, don't try to force your amateur views on the rest of us. I still have not seen any PROOF or real documentation on your loose valve position. Trying to belittle any other opinion is about all you can do. The mechanic that worked on my engine was a professional race car engine builder. I trust his judgement not yours.

[Classvino]

 

[MAN OF BLUES]

Sorry MOB I still dont buy your or DM's assumptions. Saying that "all" mechanics know that valves should be adjusted to be "happy" is ridiculous. I would need physics and proof that valve lash decreases with time and is dangerous. Wear on the buckets or cams would induce a loosening of valve lash not tightening. Well we could have this discussion well into the night. I firmly believe when the engine manufacturer set SPECS that any value within those margins are right for the engine. This obsession with loose valve lash is just not logical. Sorry to disagree. Too many owners are obsessed with valve lash when they need to just ride and enjoy the machine. Just because you are a shade tree mechanic and have owned a Concours for 9 years and you are among those who have drunk the kool aid you don't convince me at all. If you believe in what you preach that is great, don't try to force your amateur views on the rest of us. I still have not seen any PROOF or real documentation on your loose valve position. Trying to belittle any other opinion is about all you can do. The mechanic that worked on my engine was a professional race car engine builder. I trust his judgement not yours.

Now that, really cracks me up......
Shadetree mechanic?

I never said valves cam clearance got loose.... they ALWAYS get tighter.... and at some point, the valve will not seat, and it will burn.

I have adjusted my valves... I have disassembled and reassembled this stuff, and documented clearances...
Not sure if you are a COG member, but if so, I have to ask you if you know the past Technical Editors of the group, and if so, understand how they got appointed to that position....

Shadetree mechanic... whatta maroon...
I have stayed at a few Holiday Inn Express hotels tho....

Some people pay to have this done.... I prefer to do it myself....  because I CAN....



Amateur views??? Really???
Here is a view you undoubtably have never seen.....




Documentation??? What kind do you want, an article?

Maybe I should make and sell a video to prove something???
Wojldnt matter, you wouldn't gain anything from it... enough people here have gained from the shared knowledge tho...

Documentation....
Not sure you will.understand this chart, as you pretty much have to dig into the engine to do this...
But it clearly shows valve cam clearances closed up, and to a point they were at or below min specs, prior to my adjustments...




this was after an initial "inspection at 15k" where I felt everything was within, but close to limit, and the chart posted shows what was found at 24k.... when I took action, and DID adjust.