Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: VodkaAndPickles on April 13, 2012, 05:43:18 PM
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So while I had the bike running on the centerstand today, I put it in gear, and heard this knocking sound coming from the back wheel. It seemed to get worse with each higher gear, but maybe that's my imagination. Either way, the sound is there. What's causing it? Is it normal?
I made a couple videos, please check them out. You'll hear it. It's distinctive over the sound of the engine:
CIMG2033 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlhJtMEkXTI#ws)
CIMG2034 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdJnrLZN5zU#ws)
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Interesting sound. It could be wheel bearings or the final drive or it could be something simple like the brake pads rattling. I remember mine making a similar noise and it turned out to be nothing to worry about.
Maybe take the wheel off and run it and listen. One trick I do is take a long big screw driver (in this case the longer the better)and put the handle on the bone just behind your hear and touch tip to one side of the axle bolt and then the other side where the castellated nut is and maybe the caliper and see if you can isolate the sound but be careful please. I normally listen to engine sounds and not spinning wheels.
I take no responsibility if you stick that screw driver in the wheel and it goes flying.
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Interesting sound. It could be wheel bearings or the final drive or it could be something simple like the brake pads rattling. I remember mine making a similar noise and it turned out to be nothing to worry about.
Maybe take the wheel off and run it and listen. One trick I do is take a long big screw driver (in this case the longer the better)and put the handle on the bone just behind your hear and touch tip to one side of the axle bolt and then the other side where the castellated nut is and maybe the caliper and see if you can isolate the sound but be careful please. I normally listen to engine sounds and not spinning wheels.
I take no responsibility if you stick that screw driver in the wheel and it goes flying.
Hmm I'm a classical pianist, so maybe in the interest of preserving my hearing, that's not the best solution...
I'm hoping this is no big deal. I tried to shake the wheel around by hand and it doesn't seem like the bearings are bad, but who knows? I have no idea when they were changed last, if ever. If there's something wrong with the final drive, that will be the straw that broke the camel's back when it comes to this bike.
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The sound like knives being sharpened is probably the brake. Check both pads to ensure adequate thickness. If you press the rear brake pedal that sound should change so you will verify that is what it is.
The sound like someone is clacking around the inside of a tin can sounds like final drive.
does back wheel have any freeplay?
Is there oil in the final drive?
Have the wheel bearings been changed within the last 30k? Not that 30k is their life, but if they have a lot more then become more suspect.
Has the rear hub been disassembled and had the hub splines lubed recently? Gear teeth check out ok?
Maybe remove gearcase plug and slowly rotate wheel by hand, looking inside there to see if anything looks funny. Drain oil and look if you need to.
Next I'd remove the wheel and gearcase and inspect the driveshaft splines, etc. Inspect the wheel center hub if you haven't yet.
Harbor Freight sells a great stethescope for cheap. It works.
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Never met any worthwhile musician that turned down good advice that involved listening.
Then again, a classical pianist...out of my league. We non-classical type musicians listen a whole lot.
It was very good advice. Move the tip of the screwdriver to different locations and you will certainly get a very good idea where the sound is being produced. If you have not tried it, why so dismissive? It is not particularly loud, and easily attenuated.
saxman
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I haven't listened, having learned long ago that recorded sounds are nothing like reality when diagnosing automotive type noises. but I will offer this - running the rear wheel in gear while off the ground does result in various pops and bangs as the backlash in the gears and driveshaft rock back and forth against each other. My advise is to shut it iff and rotate by hand in and out of gear, and rock the wheel to see where the slop is. HTH, Steve
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I haven't listened, having learned long ago that recorded sounds are nothing like reality when diagnosing automotive type noises. but I will offer this - running the rear wheel in gear while off the ground does result in various pops and bangs as the backlash in the gears and driveshaft rock back and forth against each other. My advise is to shut it iff and rotate by hand in and out of gear, and rock the wheel to see where the slop is. HTH, Steve
+1 ......
Here is an improvement to the listening to sounds with a screwdriver trick; put on a pair of ear muffs and then put the screwdriver to the muff..... I work in an Engine Room so I'm already wearing muffs and with the screwdriver or other long metal object placed to the muff you will be amazed at how clearly you can hear and track down sounds.
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I haven't listened, having learned long ago that recorded sounds are nothing like reality when diagnosing automotive type noises. but I will offer this - running the rear wheel in gear while off the ground does result in various pops and bangs as the backlash in the gears and driveshaft rock back and forth against each other. My advise is to shut it iff and rotate by hand in and out of gear, and rock the wheel to see where the slop is. HTH, Steve
So are you saying this is normal? I did rotate the wheel in neutral by hand today, and did find some slop in one place that is probably causing the sound. Is this the bearings or the final drive?
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can't say I'd call it "normal", but I'm more prone to think it's emanating from the brake pads, as the rear rotor looks a bit rusty. The pads can be getting "tapped" by the runout in the rotor, and by the rust spots.
I don't assume a wheel bearing, but it could be the dreaded wheel hub splines needing lube, this is the hub in the wheel, and oten in the past people don't see that the splines are all shot, it needs to be disassembled to see well.
oh, that's an ugly coolant leak you have in video one..... ???
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So are you saying this is normal? I did rotate the wheel in neutral by hand today, and did find some slop in one place that is probably causing the sound. Is this the bearings or the final drive?
Perhaps a definition of "slop" would be good here. Side to side, for and aft, rotational. A hitch in the giddyup, a pot that catches, or moves more freely? Lots of different diagnoses are possible with the information provided thus far. All we can do is guess at things, so far. It may be that you should be offering up a person in your area an adult beverage and/or some grilled pork or beef muscle to come over and listen to what you have going on. And it appears that there is something going on.
Or... it's really not that big of deal to remove the caliper, then check for noise. If still there, further dis-assembly would be required. I would strongly urge you to not take this to a dealer.
Iff'n you have a trailer, you could haul it down to Guy Young's(Connieklr on the other forum) garage, near Richmond VA(I think). Honest dude that won't rip you off. Or haul it down to SiSF's place outside of Tampa. Those are the only two people I can think of that I would want to pay to work on a C10 Connie. Oops, I would include MOB, Larry Buck, Brian Snowberg, and Dan Bergman on that list, also.
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can't say I'd call it "normal", but I'm more prone to think it's emanating from the brake pads, as the rear rotor looks a bit rusty. The pads can be getting "tapped" by the runout in the rotor, and by the rust spots.
I don't assume a wheel bearing, but it could be the dreaded wheel hub splines needing lube, this is the hub in the wheel, and oten in the past people don't see that the splines are all shot, it needs to be disassembled to see well.
oh, that's an ugly coolant leak you have in video one..... ???
I know, that was the water pump, I was running the bike to heat it up the oil before draining it. The rotors are rusty from the bike sitting for so long, so I'm not really worried about the grinding noise, I don't think the pads are rubbing. Just replaced the pump and the countershaft oil seal today. Next is the fuel petcock...
Steve, the slop was fore and aft.
Unfortunately I don't really know any bikers in my area, and I don't have a trailer... :-\
I will post a video of me rotating the wheel by hand in neutral with the engine off, you'll hear the sound.
I figure the splines should be lubed anyway as I have no idea when, if ever, it was done last. How bad is this? Is there a write-up with pictures somewhere about it?
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OK, new video. Engine off, bike in neutral.
CIMG2039.MOV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VhVqUy-ubI#ws)
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Easier to hear what is going on with this vid...I would start by pulling everything off. Drain and measure the rear drive oil first. Remove rear wheel, pumpkin, etc. Everything you can get off. Examine for extreme wear due to no lube, and then greasing and reassembling assuming the splines, etc. look OK. Splines do not need a lot of grease, but every contact point needs some. Every.
Same with wheel bearings. Check for smooth operation, then lube them up real good. I clean them without solvent since they are installed and staying that way. Just wipe out the old and pack in new.
BTW, I do that whole business EVERY time the rear wheel is off, which is at least every Spring.
Then new rear brake pads. HH compound.
Bet you will have found / cured the problem by then.
saxman
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Sounds like the rubber in the cush drive is old and shrunk a bit which means nothing is wrong. Take it apart . It is the only way to tell and then show us as you go.
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Sounds like the rubber in the cush drive is old and shrunk a bit which means nothing is wrong. Take it apart . It is the only way to tell and then show us as you go.
So would I have to replace it?
I've been doing a ton of work on this bike: water pump, fuel petcock, countershaft seal, now I'll have to be pulling the rear wheel for this, and today I just discovered that the right side fairing antler is snapped and I had been riding that way for a year. Never bothered to pull the plastic and see why it was rattling...
This bike is literally a rolling demonstration of every potential problem that can affect the Concours.
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How old is this bike and how many miles? Mark
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How old is this bike and how many miles? Mark
1990 with 70,000 miles. I got it in January of last year with 60,000.
This bike has a habit of breaking down during the best riding weather...
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''fairing antler is snapped''
a few good bumps and the rest of them will snap to, you been lucky. or unlucky i should say.
It started when my right side broke, after riding it like that a while the rest of them broke to and my fairing almost fell off, I found a welding shop that does things like welding on farm equipment - trailers and spray rigs stuff like that and they welded all 3 of my fairing braces, so fare so good.
8)
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''fairing antler is snapped''
a few good bumps and the rest of them will snap to, you been lucky. or unlucky i should say.
It started when my right side broke, after riding it like that a while the rest of them broke to and my fairing almost fell off, I found a welding shop that does things like welding on farm equipment - trailers and spray rigs stuff like that and they welded all 3 of my fairing braces, so fare so good.
8)
Yeah, I've been lucky, as I frequently ride in NYC, where the pavement is ****.
Is it possible to weld the antler in place, without completely disassembling the front fairing?
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So would I have to replace it?
I've been doing a ton of work on this bike: water pump, fuel petcock, countershaft seal, now I'll have to be pulling the rear wheel for this, and today I just discovered that the right side fairing antler is snapped and I had been riding that way for a year. Never bothered to pull the plastic and see why it was rattling...
This bike is literally a rolling demonstration of every potential problem that can affect the Concours.
You haven't had to deal with the "h" word yet.
Some people just maintain things very well, they just gas n go.
Looks like you may have gotten one of those.
My bike is sitting in garage right now with 162,000 miles on it. It is dead on reliable. I'm headed 500 miles up to the RWTW this week, prolly 1,500 for the weekend. The bike, as it sits, is ready for an Alaska run. I maintain it.
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You haven't had to deal with the "h" word yet.
Some people just maintain things very well, they just gas n go.
Looks like you may have gotten one of those.
My bike is sitting in garage right now with 162,000 miles on it. It is dead on reliable. I'm headed 500 miles up to the RWTW this week, prolly 1,500 for the weekend. The bike, as it sits, is ready for an Alaska run. I maintain it.
Don't even mention hydrolock... Hopefully with the new petcock the risk of that will be reduced. I just don't know how clogged up the carbs have gotten; the bike has been sitting for 3 months now because I haven't had time to work on it until now. Don't know if running a few tanks with Seafoam through them once I get everything buttoned up (if ever) will be enough, or if I'll have to take them out and clean them.
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You might have to take off the lower side plastic so the welder can get to where it needs welding, make sure you tell who ever is welding to be careful and not melt any wires under the fairing, i brought a roll of tinfoil with me to cover wires be he did not use it and i was worried while watching him being close to some wires but it turned out ok.
you probably know this already but you will have to remove the gas tank before he can weld and make sure you clean up any spilled gas that will happen when you remove the fuel hose.
NOTE: if its welded like i had mine done then you wont be able to remove the fairing without cutting threw the weld, in order to do a good job he had to weld the nuts around the fairing mainstay. but i don't ever intend to remove it anyway, the middle nut and bolt was still there but part of the mainstay brace was cracking, it was only a matter of one more good bump and i would have been eating the pavement after running over the entire fairing. i don't want my fairing falling off in front of me at 70mph.
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I found my old post, here is some ideas about the fairing, there is some good photo's to at this link and here is a few of my weld pics.
sorry but i only have a very cheap camera ::)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3278.msg37926#msg37926 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3278.msg37926#msg37926)
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Unfortunatelty it's not my mainstay that's broken, it's the right antler right behind the right side of the speedometer. It snapped clean just above one of the bolts that holds the instrument assembly on. So this is in a harder to reach area than the mainstay. FML.
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your right that is a hard place to get to, i'm not sure how one would go about fixing that without removing the fairing. perhaps just removing the windshield and dash/instrument cluster would be enough room to get a welder in there, gosh i just don't know.