Author Topic: Unbeliveably ironic  (Read 15011 times)

Offline gPink

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2017, 03:46:09 AM »
This country is not now, never has been, and never will be a 'democracy'.

Offline maxtog

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2017, 05:34:35 AM »
This country is not now, never has been, and never will be a 'democracy'.

Short for "representative democracy", but in cases like this, referendum is typically used, which is democracy.
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Offline jettawreck

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2017, 05:37:27 AM »
This country is not now, never has been, and never will be a 'democracy'.

As I recall from history/government classes in school, and perhaps I didn't pay close attention, but wasn't the country was set up as a "republic" with a democratic type of voting system?
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2017, 05:39:39 AM »
As I recall from history/government classes in school, and perhaps I didn't pay close attention, but wasn't the country was set up as a "republic" with a democratic type of voting system?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/11/14/the-united-states-is-both-a-republic-and-a-democracy-because-democracy-is-like-cash/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
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Offline gPink

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2017, 06:03:48 AM »
The Washington Post??? Nothing from the New York Times???

Democracy is mob rule.  See Charlotte for democracy in action.

Offline maxtog

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2017, 06:31:06 AM »
The Washington Post??? Nothing from the New York Times???

Democracy is mob rule.  See Charlotte for democracy in action.

As I said earlier, most (including me) use the word "democracy" generically.  Specifically, the USA, like most Western countries are representative democracies.  A riot is not democracy because there are no rules of conduct and does not create legislation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

"Democracy [...] in modern usage, is a system of government in which the citizens exercise power directly or elect representatives from among themselves to form a governing body"


"According to political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: (a) A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; (b) The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; (c) Protection of the human rights of all citizens, and (d) A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens."
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2017, 07:21:27 AM »
Yes, that would be the most correct way I can think of, and the way in place to deal with all things here.

But in some cases, such as minorities being underprivileged, by deification (minority = smaller segment of society, so a smaller voting block) they could never have any vote result in a change desirable to them but not desirable to those not underprivileged; that is why Jim Crow lasted so long. So how do we address dissatisfaction of minorities?

As to what is happening now, that is not democracy either, in fact, it is not even legal or any allowed method available to us. It is basically 'mob rule', being backed up by what I would call 'Governance via social media'. Put another way, we now decide things based on how many FaceTwit 'likes' or 're- twits' or whatever it is that gets 'them asses' stirred up. Because our politicians, starting with the top politician in the entire country, are using / working through / deciding events and especially, terrified of having a social media frenzy turn against them (other than the top politician, who uses FaceTwit as a method of antagonism at 3:00 AM apparently), the law enforcement of the country has also been held in check while these mobs roam and perform whatever the current 'hot thing' is. Right at the moment, it is tearing down or permanently defacing statues of Confederates.

Democracy has never faced an assault anything like this one, and I am not sure it can withstand it. Then again, no one has ever had Democracy anyway (and for this discussion, Democracy and Republicanism are interchangeable, it is merely the way we would refer to a voter- led gov't with the finer details of each system not meaning anything). Worse yet, it strips off a protective layer that used to protect us from ourselves; while in theory anyone in the US could be elected to office, even high office (most of us here are viable to be President of the US I believe, there are only three simple qualifications), reality buffered those offices. To run for, say, US Senator, a person had to has enough clout and perceived ability to win to get any appreciable media coverage, and the entire structure (media, university speaking invitations, etc., etc.) were restricted by nature. So the system itself thinned the herd of available people down to some level of 'acceptable'. Now, we could have a game show host run, and possibly even win the Presidential election with no screening whatsoever by the older system of media and such..... hey, in fact,...... :-)

And that, my friends, is why magazine capacity has increased steadily in the last 100 years. And I ain't talkin' about the size of the rack in the bathroom.  ;D  And while I am not suggesting it, I am a bit surprised that some of this mob action is being tolerated by the OpFor in the citizenry all over the south. I would have thought at least a few of these 'statue raiders' would have met up with a group of other minded locals by now but it has not happened.

Brian

Exactly, there is no easy answer with these situations.   Other than, as a democracy, it should be settled by orderly and informed public hearings and voting and orderly procedures- be it leaving them be, moving them, discarding them, adding other statues or signs, whatever.  Like many people, I can sympathize with all sides on the issue but it is something that each locality will need to deal with on their own.  Not national media and not outsiders coming into localities stirring up riots.
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Offline BruceR

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2017, 07:30:48 AM »
I've been giving it some thought from a different perspective.  If I were a Jew, I would be very offended to see swastikas and Nazi salutes.  So you don't see that in Israel.  Maybe taking the statues down, but leaving historic markers in place is the way to go.  Remembering the past is one thing.  Glorifying it is something entirely different.  No doubt passions are running high on both sides, and there doesn't seem to be ANYONE in a leadership role who is calming the situation down.  I dunno, I don't have a dog in the fight either way.  as I said, there's a confederate soldier statue in my town, right in the roundabout on the square.  I never give it a second glance, and no one else does either.  But now with this increased hyper sensitivity, there's talk of taking it down.  Not sure what would replace it, but I can't imagine the new display will be an improvement over what is there.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2017, 08:22:53 AM »
This is an excellent post I think, because it shows the different views different people have of the identical thing. You say you never give a local Confederate statue a second glance.... but perhaps some do? And that right there is the key to understanding (not solving) the problem: what do various people think or feel when they see these things? Like you, I would not really be stirred at all, other than perhaps the first time (none here where I am so I would find them unusual, just like palm trees), when I might walk up and read the plaque. But perhaps a black person DOES see a link to oppression and racial hatred? When I think of R.E. Lee, I think of a great general, commanding one side of the most destructive and one of the most important wars in American history, not a slave- owner..... but I am not black and so cannot comment on what a black person might see looking at the identical image (or statute).

This article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/us/confederate-monuments-stonewall-jackson-lee-davis.html?mcubz=3

Shows a very interesting perspective of the relatives of several Confederates who have had statues erected to them. Somewhat surprisingly, many support removing the statues, or in some instances, moving them to an place where they would cause less or no social irritation, to private property. And there are some areas, such as museums and privately held, previous estates of Confederate leaders who have volunteered to accept any / all statues or monuments possible to move to that location. Perhaps this is a viable solution; they would be available to the public but held in private hands, on private property and not in open display where the public has no choice but to see them?

Brian

I've been giving it some thought from a different perspective.  If I were a Jew, I would be very offended to see swastikas and Nazi salutes.  So you don't see that in Israel.  Maybe taking the statues down, but leaving historic markers in place is the way to go.  Remembering the past is one thing.  Glorifying it is something entirely different.  No doubt passions are running high on both sides, and there doesn't seem to be ANYONE in a leadership role who is calming the situation down.  I dunno, I don't have a dog in the fight either way.  as I said, there's a confederate soldier statue in my town, right in the roundabout on the square.  I never give it a second glance, and no one else does either.  But now with this increased hyper sensitivity, there's talk of taking it down.  Not sure what would replace it, but I can't imagine the new display will be an improvement over what is there.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2017, 08:46:48 AM »
Weren't most of the statues erected by Democrats?

Offline mikeyw64

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Lightening it up a little :)
« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2017, 10:45:06 AM »
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2017, 11:25:07 AM »
I do not know but I have little interest in what Democrats may erect anyway....

:-)

Brian

Weren't most of the statues erected by Democrats?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Lightening it up a little :)
« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2017, 11:40:31 AM »
Funny and the no- cost extra is that it looks like it might be [careful how you say this Brian, careful, careful] Mesoamericans doing the removin'. Maybe they are going to smuggle him over the border where he will become an 'undocumented immigrant' in another country.

 ;D

Saw the sig. line once that said: 'Calling an illegal alien and 'undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer and unlicensed pharmacist'. I believe you call them 'chemists' but the idea should cross the pond OK.

Brian


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Offline gPink

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #93 on: August 18, 2017, 12:13:44 PM »
Might brush up on your Nationalities.  ;)

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: Lightening it up a little :)
« Reply #94 on: August 18, 2017, 01:03:54 PM »
you go to the chemists to speak to the pharmicist


go figure ;)

Typically though a CHemists refers to a high street outlet whilst pharmacies are typically found inside hospitals


Funny and the no- cost extra is that it looks like it might be [careful how you say this Brian, careful, careful] Mesoamericans doing the removin'. Maybe they are going to smuggle him over the border where he will become an 'undocumented immigrant' in another country.

 ;D

Saw the sig. line once that said: 'Calling an illegal alien and 'undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer and unlicensed pharmacist'. I believe you call them 'chemists' but the idea should cross the pond OK.

Brian
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2017, 01:09:13 PM »
Monica was very interested in what some Democrats were erecting ;)


I do not know but I have little interest in what Democrats may erect anyway....

:-)

Brian
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Offline BruceR

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Re: Lightening it up a little :)
« Reply #96 on: August 18, 2017, 01:31:41 PM »

This is hilarious to me.  Just South of Nashville you can see this gem from I-65. 
http://wkrn.com/2017/08/16/oak-hill-mayor-asks-haslam-to-obscure-forrest-statue-from-i-65/
It is on private land so the city really can't do anything about.  And it is butt ugly.  The proprietor looks just like Colonel Saunders from KFC  :finger_fing11:

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2017, 03:13:29 PM »
I assume you mean me?

Mesoamerican: peoples from Mesoamerica, a pre- Colombian region that now would include central Mexico down through the northern South American coast. I believe it would correctly refer to the descendants of those peoples still living in those areas as well as any other area. In the same way I am Western European although NOT born in Europe but America. Anyway, my best guess was that those two young folk taking Mr. Sanders for a walk are Mesoamerican.

But given the resolution of that photo, it is tough to tell and those two people may be Asian (notice how I did not use the now- incorrect word Oriental, which is apparently 'bad' although I have to look it up every single time because I cannot remember which one is bad and which one is OK.)

'Luke, ya' got ta' get ya' mind right.' To which he would respond (in 2017) 'takin' out the bad thoughts Boss' or 'puttin' in the good thoughts Boss'.

Brian

Might brush up on your Nationalities.  ;)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Lightening it up a little :)
« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2017, 03:16:46 PM »
Yeah, and doctors practise in a practice or vice- versa, right. And accounts perform in a surgery I believe.

Man, you got a tough language there. I get in trouble here with language here and we do not have all those complexities. Imagine the hi jinks if check had a 'q' or color had a 'u'?

:-)

Brian

you go to the chemists to speak to the pharmicist


go figure ;)

Typically though a CHemists refers to a high street outlet whilst pharmacies are typically found inside hospitals
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline gPink

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Re: Lightening it up a little :)
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2017, 03:24:32 PM »

Thai workers carry a statue of Colonel Harland Sanders, founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) out onto the street one of the fast food restaurants in Bangkok, Thailand January 27, 2004. Vietnam announced the closing of 8 outlets in order to change to a fish based menu. An outbreak of Bird Flu has ravaged poultry farms and could devastate the country's chicken export sector which is the worl's fourth largest worth 1.5 billion dollars. The Bird Flu (also called Avian Flu) has claimed six victims in Vietnam and one in Thailand. The World Health organization ( W.H.O.) said there was no evidence of person-to-person spread of the virus.