Unbeliveably ironic

[VirginiaJim]

That is just not correct.  MOST people in "the South" couldn't give a rat's a** about the ancient Confederacy and certainly don't revere the military leaders.

As I said, ancient and inaccurate stereotypes... Especially regarding Virginia, which is barely even "South".

Depends where you live, Max.  You are in an area that we'll say is more cosmopolitan than the rest of the state.  I've lived here since 1969 and I can tell you for a fact that most white Southerner's outside of the major metro areas in VA do give a rat's ass about the Confederacy and do revere those military leaders.  If you take out Northern VA, Tidewater and parts of Richmond, the rest of the state is pro Confederacy and not by a little bit.

Just as an FYI: virtually all of the war was fought in the South (Gettysburg, PA, being a very unusual exception), so it was the Southern civilians and property that suffered along with the actual combatants. And it was a particularly harsh war, with a huge amount of 'retribution', cruelty had simple excess. The depth of the Southern hatred of Northerners can be summed up, at least it is for me, in a statement given to Gen. Joshua Chamberlain, US Army, by Gen. Wise, CSA, at the formal surrender as the Southerners surrendered their arms and battle flags: “You may forgive us but we won’t be forgiven. There is rancor in our hearts…which you little dream of. We hate you, sir.”

It has been over 150 years since the end of that war, although reconstruction lasted until 1877, and the entire civil rights era started in the late 1950's and raged for several decades. But there are still deep rifts, at least in attitude and thought, between the two sections of the country and I believe a true animosity to this day in the Southern states WRT the Northern people (the "Damn Yankees").

As a result of all of this yes, that statue is a real rarity. In fact, I did not know about it until your post and was amazed to see it when I looked.

Brian

And I can tell you for a fact that rancor is alive and well and is festering.  While it may not be out in the open so much, it's still there.  I can remember when we moved into Southside VA in 1969 distancing myself from the Northern folks as much as I could.  My accent was my undoing.  It was not southern.  In fact, I had no accent as I grew up on AF bases.  I did have an English accent at one time but that faded as I grew up over here.

I identify with the South as it's my home of choice these days.  It's part of my DNA from my father's side.

[maxtog]

Depends where you live, Max.  You are in an area that we'll say is more cosmopolitan than the rest of the state.  I've lived here since 1969 and I can tell you for a fact that most white Southerner's outside of the major metro areas in VA do give a rat's ass about the Confederacy and do revere those military leaders.  If you take out Northern VA, Tidewater and parts of Richmond, the rest of the state is pro Confederacy and not by a little bit.

I am not denying there are all kinds of people all over (nor will I discount your experience). But that was my point, one can't say "people in the 'South' believe 'XYZ'" or do "XYZ" because that implies 120 million people think or act the same, which is just so not true.  By population numbers, for sure, I stand by my statement, especially for VA, that MOST (probably the overwhelming majority) of people here don't care anything about the Confederacy.   Even most might want to preserve historic statues of all types (like me), but that is not being pro-Confederacy and certainly not pro-slavery.  I lived in a non-urban area for 1/3 of my life, and in cities the rest, and it didn't seem that much different, nor when visiting other areas.

I will also add that the people who are caught up in such [pro-Confederacy] stuff, the majority of even that minority are not racist or think slavery was a good thing (as it seems some left-wing media want to contradict).  It is a good time to point out, again, that in this riot situation, from my understanding, most of the protesters were not even Virginians.

[gPink]

The societal divisions in this country are much wider than north/south, slavery/nazi ideas. These are the convenient tools at this time. The ultimate goal being the complete revision of history via the new Cultural Revolution. It is playing out in different ways in different parts of the country. We've just seen how the North/South conflict is going to progress. The Midwest has red state/blue city conflicts. The West and Southwest is a combination of pitting immigrant against citizen and citizen against the fedgov BLM. This is a fight for the soul of the country. Luck to us.

[B.D.F.]

I would be happy if we could just tell the truth, such as we are aware of it at this time.

My oldest son, he is 35, told me a few months ago that 'all humans are genetically identical'. Now that was an amazing statement in my opinion. And I told him so, and asked him why he would say that. He responded with a lot of words, all P.C., and a bunch of rhetoric that just did not apply. Anyway, when he was done, I asked him one question: if he and his wife (both of Western European descent as far as we know) were to have a child, would that child have a ~30% chance of being Caucasian (White), a ~30% change of being Mongoloid (Asian), and a ~40% change of being 'other'? He was so shocked he went silent. And the next words were ones of sheer amazement, telling me I was right and this was like a lightening bolt! Really? Yep, we have become so P.C. that we are now piling the B.S. on in dump-truck sized doses.

It is unfortunate that we cannot simply speak the truth. Things such as Chicago does not have a murder problem; the South Side of Chicago has a murder problem. But not, we must disguise even the simplest facts until they are an outright lie.

It gets worse from here. If I could find a 'truth group', I would join and pay almost any dues. And by that I really mean a 'TRUTH' group, not one supporting any particular ideas or views, merely ones who could see and state facts. But we are so hampered by our P.C. blinders that we cannot even see or state the real problems, never mind deal with them. Nope, we have to pretend that there is a huge crime problem in Chicago when in fact that is an outright lie and hampers any progress toward actually dealing with our social issues.

BTW- I am not picking on Chicago or the South Side of Chicago; I merely mention this area because it happens to be the murder capitol of the US at the moment (not Chicago, the other one mentioned, no matter how much people fib about it).

"I speak the truth not so much as I would, but as much as I dare, and I dare a little more as I grow older."
- Montaigne

If I live much longer, I ought to be hell on wheels, huh Max?

Brian

The societal divisions in this country are much wider than north/south, slavery/nazi ideas. These are the convenient tools at this time. The ultimate goal being the complete revision of history via the new Cultural Revolution. It is playing out in different ways in different parts of the country. We've just seen how the North/South conflict is going to progress. The Midwest has red state/blue city conflicts. The West and Southwest is a combination of pitting immigrant against citizen and citizen against the fedgov BLM. This is a fight for the soul of the country. Luck to us.

[gPink]

Ahh, but what makes your truth better than my truth? Herein lies the problem and I'm afraid it is insurmountable.

[B.D.F.]

It is not 'my' truth and it is not 'your' truth, the truth is the truth. Facts are facts. Gravity is a positive force, always and without exception. Can you possibly spin that into anytihing else? Does a dropped hammer in your house hit the ceiling..... ever?

Fact: giraffes are taller than donkeys. Would you disagree? Would you suggest it may not be that way if only.... what, we looked at it differently? If we averaged the facts enough? When would a donkey become as tall as a giraffe?

Seriously, do you not believe there is a root, base- line truth in the universe? Are all things merely matters of opinion or 'slant'?

Do you see any Confederate statues being toppled by angry mobs in the northern US? Would you believe anyone who said that this is a situation spread evenly across the entire US? Seriously?

The truth is that this situation is occurring in the Southern states, specifically the Confederate states. Would you dispute that and say it was 'my' truth?

Brian

Ahh, but what makes your truth better than my truth? Herein lies the problem and I'm afraid it is insurmountable.

[gPink]

Brian,I obviously missed conveying the irony in my last post. I do think you and I are pretty much on the same page.

[mikeyw64]

Brian,I obviously missed conveying the irony in my last post. I do think you and I are pretty much on the same page.

You forget to suffix the statement with any form of emoticon :p

[BruceR]

I'm waiting for this dispute to land on my doorstep.  I live in Franklin, TN where the Confederacy suffered a major defeat.
Fourteen Confederate generals (six killed, seven wounded, and one captured) and 55 regimental commanders were casualties.
There's a statue of a Confederate soldier in the town square.  Many men lost their lives in/around Franklin and I personally see no harm in having a monument to them.  Not to glorify their cause, nor to condone slavery, but to acknowledge that a great and tragic event happened nearby.  There is even an old house (the Cater House, which you can tour) that is riddled with bullet holes from the battle.  The residents, which might include their slaves, hid in the basement while the battle raged.  It too has been threatened, but why I can not fathom.
The question that we all must ask is, where do we stop?  When does the cleansing become 'enough'?

Playing devil's advocate:  Could white people protest and demand monuments to Martin Luther King Jr be torn down because he is a serial adulterer?

[gPink]

Just prior to Charlotte riots

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[B.D.F.]

Yep, I missed the ironical part entirely. I thought you were on the Maxwagon.... you know, the one that says it ain't really like it is, even when it is exactly like it is.

:-)

As I said, my views do not fit in any nice little box.... I guess I am a staunch conservative, progressive (the T.R. kind of progressive, not a modern liberal) mixed in with some libertarian. And I am not at all pleased with us becoming so politically correct that we cannot even allude to any facts anymore. It really angers me that there are words we cannot even say, write and at least according to some think. Another example, in this current 'anti- Confederate' enviroment, is that private companies as well as individuals apparently cannot wear / own / display anything represnetative of that era. Again, a very important tennant of America is freedom of expression so if someone wants to fly a Confederate flag, wear a shirt with the Confederate flag on it, etc., etc. they can no longer do so due to intolerance. And it is those screaming tolerance that will not tolerate such displays so it is a two- fer' for me: one is people getting in the way of anyone's Constitutional rights and the second is the absolutely disgusting practice of the tolerant people being utterly intolerance. Of perhaps it is them being tolerant of that they like, and antagonistic toward that they do not like. It all makes me want to get a Confederate shirt.....

Brian

Brian,I obviously missed conveying the irony in my last post. I do think you and I are pretty much on the same page.

[maxtog]

I thought you were on the Maxwagon.... you know, the one that says it ain't really like it is, even when it is exactly like it is.

:-)

As I said, my views do not fit in any nice little box....

Or the Brianwagon, you know, that one that likes to put other people's views into nice little boxes (like old and inaccurate stereotypes) but not his own views?

Oh yeah,  "  :-) "

[B.D.F.]

This is the part in the TV series Fargo where someone would go 'aw gees'.

:-)   but I really mean it.

In fact, I will buy you one of these if you want:

https://rednecknationstrong.com/collections/confederate-flag/products/ban-this-flag-cofederate-rnss-58

Just let me know your size. Notice that the sizes range from sm. to 4XL but not XSM or 2XSM..... If I were someone who put labels on people, things like this might make me think Rednecks are on the husky side.   

Brian

Or the Brianwagon, you know, that one that likes to put other people's views into nice little boxes (like old and inaccurate stereotypes) but not his own views?

Oh yeah,  "  :-) "

[maxtog]

Eeeeew, no thanks...  I'll pass on that 

[B.D.F.]

 

Yeah, that one is kinda' confrontational. Probably best to start off with something a little more subtle.

My brother has a "Black guns matter" shirt he wears now and then. Kinda' funny watching peoples' reactions to that one 'cause they almost always miss- read it in the first glance. :-)

But I do think I will grab a couple of shirts with the Confederate flag on them just to show a little support for my Southern fellow citizens. While I am sure there are some bigots and probably distasteful people that support distasteful views, I firmly believe there are many more Southerners who are simply proud of the positive traditions and accomplishments of Southerners, both past as well as present but without the hatred or evil wishes for anyone. I was in the South for the 2014 COG rally in the very corner of TN, then traveled to N. Carolina to visit with my son in Charlottesville (sp?) (in NC, not VA where the recent rioting occurred) and was frankly quite surprised by the huge changes in the southern culture from many years ago when I was there (the South) last.

Anyway, this whole thing has been unfortunate IMO and there is no end in sight. I hope that some artifacts of the Confederacy can be saved and displayed in a way and in a place that does not offend any group of people. That may not be possible, and the very idea may not be workable; I only have my own view and really cannot relate to a statue of someone who died 100+ years ago threatening or demeaning me but then again, I have never been a member of a minority group and so cannot know how those folks feel.

Brian

Eeeeew, no thanks...  I'll pass on that 

[B.D.F.]

Just tripped over this:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/robert-e-lee-thought-confederate-220734970.html

Apparently, Robert E. Lee was opposed to monuments and statues erected depicting Civil War participants. Further, he was opposed to the Confederate flag after the war, and would not wear his uniform, again after the war. He was not buried in a CSA uniform and no mourners wore CSA uniforms at his request, though of course many were veterans of that was on the Confederate side.

This is all quite interesting I think and apparently his goal was exactly the same as a lot of people today; to do nothing that would give offense. Kind of amazing actually because I believe a LOT of the Confederate statues now giving offense to some are of the very man who did not want them, R.E. Lee.

Brian

[BruceR]

Well, if you read  his own words, there is "at this time" in there.  He knew that the monuments would cause strife.  But I doubt he could imagine that 100 years later they still would be.  And I think people fail to realize the Lee was a good man both before and after the civil war.  He loved this country and tried hard to heal her wounds. His downfall was that he could not bring himself to bear arms against his home state of Virginia

[gPink]

You mean just get rid of the Confederate presidents carved there?

Although, now that you mention it, two of those Presidents were slave holders, and a third one stole a number of colonies from the Spanish and made them US possessions (is that another word for colony?). We should probably stop looking pretty soon or we may find other American heroes with flaws and some bad behavior in their lives (say it isn't so!).

Brian

Talk about calling it.... https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9kkkby/lets-get-rid-of-mount-rushmore

[B.D.F.]

Believe me, had those writings been any ones other than Lee himself, I would not have bothered posting them. His honor and yet sensitivity to the situation may be a lesson that still applies; perhaps we (all Americans) should re- visit this whole issue and perhaps come to a somewhat different conclusion. As I have said previously, I believe Southerners have a right to be proud of their accomplishments and some of the true heroes the South has produced. But reading about Lee's attitude, perhaps it IS a mistake, even so much later in time, to cause the very type of harm he was concerned about to a segment of our current society by having those statues and monuments. Maybe it is not possible to separate the ideals and goals of the Confederacy from the accomplishments and honorable deeds of those participating in the Civil War?

This would not be an issue we would even be talking about if the answer were easy IMO.

Brian

Well, if you read  his own words, there is "at this time" in there.  He knew that the monuments would cause strife.  But I doubt he could imagine that 100 years later they still would be.  And I think people fail to realize the Lee was a good man both before and after the civil war.  He loved this country and tried hard to heal her wounds. His downfall was that he could not bring himself to bear arms against his home state of Virginia

[maxtog]

This would not be an issue we would even be talking about if the answer were easy IMO.

Exactly, there is no easy answer with these situations.   Other than, as a democracy, it should be settled by orderly and informed public hearings and voting and orderly procedures- be it leaving them be, moving them, discarding them, adding other statues or signs, whatever.  Like many people, I can sympathize with all sides on the issue but it is something that each locality will need to deal with on their own.  Not national media and not outsiders coming into localities stirring up riots.