A thread about nothing at all....

[B.D.F.]

Yes, it is that frankly HUGE difference between our two systems: once we get past the facade of 'it is free' and down to brass tacks, the real difference is that in the UK, one basically pays for the ability to watch TV while in the US, at least until recently and probably still the most widely used method has us actually getting TV 'for free' with the actual cost being the commercials buried in all of the shows. I never watch TV in real- time but record it and then watch is so that I can fast- forward through the commercials. Even a show that I am literally waiting to watch; we literally wait 15 minutes and then begging to watch the recording so I can FF through the commercials. So it appears we each have our own, somewhat convoluted systems, with yours I believe being the most honest and open. Although no one here (US) is fibbing in the least that there are commercials, they are in fact commercial in nature to generate income, etc.

As I have been saying for a while now, I believe a 'pay for bandwidth' and then have the provider divide up the income and distribute it to those providing the content that generated parts of that bandwidth usage has a lot of potential merit. Such a system would take some effort to implement and use and in the end it may not work at all but still, I think it could be a good and useful system that would walk right down the center of the road named Capitalism.

Brian

Almost correct

There's a TV licence fee payable by anyone using a TV or other device capable of receiving a signal, doesn't matter whether its BBC/ITV or whatever. If its capable of receiving a signal you need to ave a licence for it.

Or to quote Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom

"In the United Kingdom and the Crown dependencies, any household watching or recording live television transmissions as they are being broadcast (terrestrial, satellite, cable, or internet) is required to hold a television licence. Businesses, hospitals, schools and a range of other organisations are also required to hold television licences to watch and record live TV broadcasts.[1] A television licence is also required to receive on-demand programme services provided by the BBC, on the iPlayer catch-up service."

In other words even if you don't watch the BBC commercial free channels you still have to pay the licence fee.


Thats currently £147 per year for a Colour TV Licence &  £49.50 for a Black & White TV Licence.

Over 75's get it free and anyone living in a care home pays £7.50

If you're registered blind you get a 50% reduction


http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/tv-licence-types-and-costs-top2

[gPink]

All the 'fees' go to the central Gov.?  Which in turn funds the BBC?

[mikeyw64]

Another big difference is we don't rearrange our sports programs around the commercials

Where football (real football not your version ;o) ) is shown on channels with commercials then there are adverts at half time but that's still 45 minutes into the game.

For longer events such as F1 then yes they may interrupt live coverage briefly but again its typically mid race (although as I watch on SKY F1 then the entire race is commercial/advert free )

I actually quite like the adverts over here, many of them are made to a very high quality and are mini works of art in their own right.


Couple of my favourites from the last 20 years (yes a very small sample)

! No longer available

! No longer available

! No longer available

Yes, it is that frankly HUGE difference between our two systems: once we get past the facade of 'it is free' and down to brass tacks, the real difference is that in the UK, one basically pays for the ability to watch TV while in the US, at least until recently and probably still the most widely used method has us actually getting TV 'for free' with the actual cost being the commercials buried in all of the shows. I never watch TV in real- time but record it and then watch is so that I can fast- forward through the commercials. Even a show that I am literally waiting to watch; we literally wait 15 minutes and then begging to watch the recording so I can FF through the commercials. So it appears we each have our own, somewhat convoluted systems, with yours I believe being the most honest and open. Although no one here (US) is fibbing in the least that there are commercials, they are in fact commercial in nature to generate income, etc.

As I have been saying for a while now, I believe a 'pay for bandwidth' and then have the provider divide up the income and distribute it to those providing the content that generated parts of that bandwidth usage has a lot of potential merit. Such a system would take some effort to implement and use and in the end it may not work at all but still, I think it could be a good and useful system that would walk right down the center of the road named Capitalism.

Brian

[maxtog]

Thats currently £147 per year for a Colour TV Licence

Ouch!  $190 a year, every year, on top of the VAT and other taxes to buy the TV and the high taxes on the money earned to pay for it all.

At least here we pay nothing for terrestrial (over-the-air) HDTV, typically around 15 stations in rural areas with all the major traditional networks (NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, UPN, Fox, Ion, CW, TBN, etc).

[mikeyw64]

Ouch!  $190 a year, every year, on top of the VAT and other taxes to buy the TV and the high taxes on the money earned to pay for it all.

At least here we pay nothing for terrestrial (over-the-air) HDTV, typically around 15 stations in rural areas with all the major traditional networks (NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, UPN, Fox, Ion, CW, TBN, etc).

ahh taxes, another good subject for comparison.

I'm 53 now and have never filled out a tax return in my life.

The majority of people on annual salaries, weekly paid etc all pay their income tax through a system known as PAYE, Pay As You Earn. COmes direct out of your wages each time you get paid.

Income Tax rates and bands
Band                           Taxable income            Tax rate
Personal Allowance   Up to £11,500            0%
Basic rate                   £11,501 to £45,000    20%
Higher rate           £45,001 to £150,000    40%
Additional rate           over £150,000            45%

Another big difference is that in shops the price on the shelf is the price you pay, VAT is included. There's no adding of sales tax at the checkout as I believe (& correct me if I'm wrong) happens in most (if not all) of the US.

Rate                      % of VAT   What the rate applies to
Standard              20%            Most goods and services
Reduced rate        5%            Some goods and services, eg children's car seats and home energy
Zero rate                0%            Zero-rated goods and services, eg most food and children's clothes

[B.D.F.]

Yes, sports interrupted for commercials, which generate all the money, are an excellent example of our system. When in doubt, capitalism will swoop in and save the day, or at least make a profit :-)

I am neither praising or condemning either of our systems, merely pointing out that your example is an excellent illustration of a very fundamentally different system.

Two points though: there is a commercial in the third video you posted.  and I believe you are right about some of your commercials but have not chosen the very best.... which are, of course, the Durex ads. Absolutely and utterly brilliant as you would say. I would say outstanding. Easily the equal of our own 'Trunk Monkey' commercials IMO. And if you have not see the Trunk Monkey commercials, I seriously and strongly suggest you stop whatever you are doing, ignore Winston for a few moments, and watch all of them. BTW: trunk monkey is an American slang term for a tire iron, usually when it is used as a weapon or a mechanism to smash and bash something into submission.

The best one of the TM commercials ends with the line: "Because sometimes, getting your car back is simply not enough." Add to that what the monkey (really not a monkey at all but a Chimpanzee, a Great Ape or Hominid, like me) is doing when the door glass is broken and that commercial still slays me years and years after I first watched it.

Brian

Another big difference is we don't rearrange our sports programs around the commercials

Where football (real football not your version ;o) ) is shown on channels with commercials then there are adverts at half time but that's still 45 minutes into the game.

For longer events such as F1 then yes they may interrupt live coverage briefly but again its typically mid race (although as I watch on SKY F1 then the entire race is commercial/advert free )

I actually quite like the adverts over here, many of them are made to a very high quality and are mini works of art in their own right.


Couple of my favourites from the last 20 years (yes a very small sample)

! No longer available

! No longer available

! No longer available

Edited 13 Aug: To finish last sentence. Duh.

[B.D.F.]

We are getting dangerously close to something, in a thread about nothing but my two cents:

We too have the very same tax on our income, which is withheld and paid to the Dept. of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service (affectionately (cough, cough) known as the IRS and other terms, such as 'revenuers' and such). Our system too is weighted and not linear, just as yours is. And while we do have an 'end of the year fixer' upper' known as a tax return, by far the great majority of our income tax is paid in each earner's pay period, just like yours.

In addition to Federal Income Tax, almost all US states also have a State Income Tax, sometimes piggy-backed onto the Federal tax as in MA, sometimes independent as in RI. Remember, the US of A is quite unusual in that we still believe, and in many cases act, as though were were not a country at all but a loose collection of states. This is a major difference between the US and UK, as well as the US and everywhere else.

Yes, almost all states have a state sales tax that one pays at time of sale. Some states do not but they are the rarity, not the norm. You have the VAT system, but it is not as simple as that either. We have excise taxes because the various gov'ts always need more money and spend a great deal of time thinking up new and exciting taxes, many of which are done very quietly.... excise tax on tires sneaks past almost everyone. Gasoline tax (substantial, maybe $0.50 / gal. depending on state), cigarette tax (very substantial, by far the majority of the cost of cigarettes at just over $8 / pack of 20). In the end, each country has a tax structure, built up over decades, and it is not possible to directly compare any one facet of any system with another system because they just do not cross. Our state sales tax (and we also have some sales taxes piggy- backed on in very large cities; those lucky enough to live / work / buy things in NY, NY get to pay the same tax three times: Federal, State and City) does not cross to your VAT, both are part of a larger system. Which is why one has to add up all the taxes an average individual pays to see what a country really costs each citizen.

Then there are all the ways to cheat the tax system but I am sure that only applies to we Colonists; a fine, up-standing subject of Her Majesty would never even think of such a thing.... eh what, Gov?   

Brian

ahh taxes, another good subject for comparison.

I'm 53 now and have never filled out a tax return in my life.

The majority of people on annual salaries, weekly paid etc all pay their income tax through a system known as PAYE, Pay As You Earn. COmes direct out of your wages each time you get paid.

Income Tax rates and bands
Band                           Taxable income            Tax rate
Personal Allowance   Up to £11,500            0%
Basic rate                   £11,501 to £45,000    20%
Higher rate           £45,001 to £150,000    40%
Additional rate           over £150,000            45%

Another big difference is that in shops the price on the shelf is the price you pay, VAT is included. There's no adding of sales tax at the checkout as I believe (& correct me if I'm wrong) happens in most (if not all) of the US.

Rate                      % of VAT   What the rate applies to
Standard              20%            Most goods and services
Reduced rate        5%            Some goods and services, eg children's car seats and home energy
Zero rate                0%            Zero-rated goods and services, eg most food and children's clothes

[mikeyw64]

And that was my point.

Yes we have tax on everything, actually petrol (why call a fluid gas lol) there is a 61% Fuel Duty on it plus 20% VAT on top of that (yes they tax the tax) but the price at the pump/shelf is the price you pay. You don't have to do any further calculations.

Same goes for alcohol, there is a alcohol duty added to the price then the whole lot has VAT added

If it says £1.14 per litre on the pump that's what you pay.

If its £26 for a bottle of Jack Daniels thats what you pay

If a telly costs £499 that's what you pay

All nice & simple


If you're  a VAT registered business then you can get a VAT receipt and start claiming back on some stuff but thats another whole minefield

Ie If I

We are getting dangerously close to something, in a thread about nothing but my two cents:

We too have the very same tax on our income, which is withheld and paid to the Dept. of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service (affectionately (cough, cough) known as the IRS and other terms, such as 'revenuers' and such). Our system too is weighted and not linear, just as yours is. And while we do have an 'end of the year fixer' upper' known as a tax return, by far the great majority of our income tax is paid in each earner's pay period, just like yours.

In addition to Federal Income Tax, almost all US states also have a State Income Tax, sometimes piggy-backed onto the Federal tax as in MA, sometimes independent as in RI. Remember, the US of A is quite unusual in that we still believe, and in many cases act, as though were were not a country at all but a loose collection of states. This is a major difference between the US and UK, as well as the US and everywhere else.

Yes, almost all states have a state sales tax that one pays at time of sale. Some states do not but they are the rarity, not the norm. You have the VAT system, but it is not as simple as that either. We have excise taxes because the various gov'ts always need more money and spend a great deal of time thinking up new and exciting taxes, many of which are done very quietly.... excise tax on tires sneaks past almost everyone. Gasoline tax (substantial, maybe $0.50 / gal. depending on state), cigarette tax (very substantial, by far the majority of the cost of cigarettes at just over $8 / pack of 20). In the end, each country has a tax structure, built up over decades, and it is not possible to directly compare any one facet of any system with another system because they just do not cross. Our state sales tax (and we also have some sales taxes piggy- backed on in very large cities; those lucky enough to live / work / buy things in NY, NY get to pay the same tax three times: Federal, State and City) does not cross to your VAT, both are part of a larger system. Which is why one has to add up all the taxes an average individual pays to see what a country really costs each citizen.

Then there are all the ways to cheat the tax system but I am sure that only applies to we Colonists; a fine, up-standing subject of Her Majesty would never even think of such a thing.... eh what, Gov?   

Brian

[Rhino]

And that was my point.

Yes we have tax on everything, actually petrol (why call a fluid gas lol) there is a 61% Fuel Duty on it plus 20% VAT on top of that (yes they tax the tax) but the price at the pump/shelf is the price you pay. You don't have to do any further calculations.

Same goes for alcohol, there is a alcohol duty added to the price then the whole lot has VAT added

If it says £1.14 per litre on the pump that's what you pay.

If its £26 for a bottle of Jack Daniels thats what you pay

If a telly costs £499 that's what you pay

All nice & simple


If you're  a VAT registered business then you can get a VAT receipt and start claiming back on some stuff but thats another whole minefield

Ie If I

Makes it easy to forget how much taxes you are really paying. That is the problem with our income tax. Would be better if we had to pay it in cash in person every year. Then no one would ever forget.

[maxtog]

Yes we have tax on everything, actually petrol (why call a fluid gas lol) there is a 61% Fuel Duty on it plus 20% VAT on top of that (yes they tax the tax) but the price at the pump/shelf is the price you pay. You don't have to do any further calculations.

Here (USA), all taxes are included in gas [petrol] prices- you pay what you see on the pump, same as there.  Most other products you do have to add sales tax at the end, if there is a sales tax.  Sales taxes are typically a flat percent across a whole state (but not always) and usually on all products sold (although there are often exceptions, like a lower sales tax on food and medications).  Here in VA it is generally 5 to 6% with half that for food and medications.   "Sin taxes" on alcohol and tobacco (I think those are the only two product categories) are hidden/included in the shelf price, then you pay sales taxes on top of that.

There is a wide variation in the amount of sales tax depending on which state.  Each state raises money in a variety of ways, those with no or low sales taxes typically have higher personal property, and/or real estate and/or income tax, for example.

[mikeyw64]

wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who said there are only two certainties in life, death & tax.

[maxtog]

wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who said there are only two certainties in life, death & tax.

One of them, yes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_taxes_(idiom)

[mikeyw64]

Loving Al Gores sense of humour

[B.D.F.]

Yep, I hear you, I just do not think it is a big deal and merely a different mechanism. But I have seen enough Europeans at the cash register and the look on their faces, as well as having numerous conversations with many non- US familiar folks to know that it really is an emotional issue for some. And most unusual for most, if not all, who are used to the system. Still, it is merely a method to generate revenue and not something anyone is trying to hide or minimize. In fact, I believe most if not all advertised prices say 'plus tax' as a way of warning.

Now in a really left- handed way, it can be a benefit over, say, the VAT system: there are cases in which we do not pay sales tax. Many on- line orders are not taxed because the vendor is not required to collect sales tax (you may be amused by one slang term for it: "The Governor's Cut" :-)  ), and then there is the whole question of exactly which state the sale actually took place in (yeah, that is not grammatically correct but you can make a thought out of it). This can be very hard on real 'brick and mortar' vendors with local stores for two reasons: they have to compete with on- line orders that may and often do omit sales tax, plus people end up using their store as the 'shopping floor and display' for a warehouse a thousand miles away. The store owner maintains stock, pays utilities, rent (or had to buy the building), pays help, insurance and a host of other things so a potential customer can look, handle, often get advise and then go home and buy the item on- line and have it delivered.

BTW- more and more on- line sales outfits now DO charge sales tax for the state in which the purchaser resides because they are spreading out (Amazon now has six locations in the US), and the Fed. gov't is considering legislation to plug this 'leak in the tax dyke'.

Our state sales tax system does generate some weird results though: I live in RI, and the sales tax here is 7%. 25 miles north, in MA (you know, Plymouth & The Pilgrims & The Mayflower, Boston and that.... er, 'unpleasantness in the late 1700's, etc.) the sales tax is 5%. So when buying big ticket items such as furniture, a lot of RI residents hop the line, buy stuff in MA and have it delivered. But that makes the Guvnah of RI unhappy 'cause he ain't gettin' his cut so they post agents in the parking lot of the large furniture dealers in MA, look for RI plates, and snoop around for what might have been sold. So occasionally, the state of RI bills its residents for the tax difference on large purchases made in MA.... yep, 2% due and payable to the State of RI. Amazing but true.

Brian

And that was my point.

Yes we have tax on everything, actually petrol (why call a fluid gas lol) there is a 61% Fuel Duty on it plus 20% VAT on top of that (yes they tax the tax) but the price at the pump/shelf is the price you pay. You don't have to do any further calculations.

Same goes for alcohol, there is a alcohol duty added to the price then the whole lot has VAT added

If it says £1.14 per litre on the pump that's what you pay.

If its £26 for a bottle of Jack Daniels thats what you pay

If a telly costs £499 that's what you pay

All nice & simple


If you're  a VAT registered business then you can get a VAT receipt and start claiming back on some stuff but thats another whole minefield

Ie If I

[mikeyw64]

With the Cross border stuff you've almost touched on something that could prove interesting Post Brexit.

Currently if I buy anything from another EU country as long as the taxes have been paid on it in that country I don't have to pay any further import duties/taxes etc (VAT & other duties do vary across the EU). Technically that only applies if you bring it back in in person , in practice it's applied online as well.




Its one of the reasons why so many people pop over to Belgium as their "sin" tax on tobacco is significantly lower than the UK. Prices are typically 2/3's lower. I know when I used to smoke it made sense for me to pop over the channel, pick up 6 months worth ,and have a weekend away. The total cost including ferry/chunnel, fuel, tobacco , hotel, food etc was still cheaper by a margin than buying the tobacco in the UK as I needed/wanted it. (Honest Guv I never ever made any money by selling a pouch bought in Belgium for £5 to any one at work for £10 where the UK price was £15, everything brought in was for personal consumption only in line with the law)



Nobody really knows yet what the situation will be post Brexit.

Will they just tighten up on the online ordering and keep the physical journeys alone or will their be a hard line imposed by the UK govt and it will be the same (meagre) allowances as already exist  bringing good in from anywhere outside the EU

 l

Yep, I hear you, I just do not think it is a big deal and merely a different mechanism. But I have seen enough Europeans at the cash register and the look on their faces, as well as having numerous conversations with many non- US familiar folks to know that it really is an emotional issue for some. And most unusual for most, if not all, who are used to the system. Still, it is merely a method to generate revenue and not something anyone is trying to hide or minimize. In fact, I believe most if not all advertised prices say 'plus tax' as a way of warning.

Now in a really left- handed way, it can be a benefit over, say, the VAT system: there are cases in which we do not pay sales tax. Many on- line orders are not taxed because the vendor is not required to collect sales tax (you may be amused by one slang term for it: "The Governor's Cut" :-)  ), and then there is the whole question of exactly which state the sale actually took place in (yeah, that is not grammatically correct but you can make a thought out of it). This can be very hard on real 'brick and mortar' vendors with local stores for two reasons: they have to compete with on- line orders that may and often do omit sales tax, plus people end up using their store as the 'shopping floor and display' for a warehouse a thousand miles away. The store owner maintains stock, pays utilities, rent (or had to buy the building), pays help, insurance and a host of other things so a potential customer can look, handle, often get advise and then go home and buy the item on- line and have it delivered.

BTW- more and more on- line sales outfits now DO charge sales tax for the state in which the purchaser resides because they are spreading out (Amazon now has six locations in the US), and the Fed. gov't is considering legislation to plug this 'leak in the tax dyke'.

Our state sales tax system does generate some weird results though: I live in RI, and the sales tax here is 7%. 25 miles north, in MA (you know, Plymouth & The Pilgrims & The Mayflower, Boston and that.... er, 'unpleasantness in the late 1700's, etc.) the sales tax is 5%. So when buying big ticket items such as furniture, a lot of RI residents hop the line, buy stuff in MA and have it delivered. But that makes the Guvnah of RI unhappy 'cause he ain't gettin' his cut so they post agents in the parking lot of the large furniture dealers in MA, look for RI plates, and snoop around for what might have been sold. So occasionally, the state of RI bills its residents for the tax difference on large purchases made in MA.... yep, 2% due and payable to the State of RI. Amazing but true.

Brian

[B.D.F.]

As the story goes.....

John 'Uncle John' Sedgwick. Born in Connecticut in 1813, graduated West Point in 1837. A Colonel at the start of the Civil War (of the 'War between the States' for my southern brethren) he rose in rank to Major General at the time of his death in VA, 1864. He is really remembered for two things: one is certainly true, the other one is sketchy but makes a great story either way.

First, he was the highest ranking US officer to be killed during the Civil War, or more accurately, was one of two Major Generals to be killed in action during that war (the other was John Reynolds, killed at Gettysburg, 1863).

The other thing that is notable is that during the battle of Spotsylvania Court House, he stood tall and tried to rally his men while they ducked and cowed. He showed frank amazement as there was nothing but occasional rifle fire, no artillery or even concentrated rifle fire aimed anywhere near him or his men and even that being fired from at least 1,000 yards and further away. He berated and bullied them in an effort to get them to stand and man the artillery pieces he commanded without success and finally said: "They could not hit an elephant at this distance!" but never actually finished the final word as a confederate sharp- shooter hit him and killed him where he stood; he was dead before he hit the ground.

As I said, it is a great story. But another version, this one by Gen. Sedgwick's adjutant, who was present when the General was killed, said this:

"    I gave the necessary order to move the troops to the right, and as they rose to execute the movement the enemy opened a sprinkling fire, partly from sharp-shooters. As the bullets whistled by, some of the men dodged. The general said laughingly, "What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." A few seconds after, a man who had been separated from his regiment passed directly in front of the general, and at the same moment a sharp-shooter's bullet passed with a long shrill whistle very close, and the soldier, who was then just in front of the general, dodged to the ground. The general touched him gently with his foot, and said, "Why, my man, I am ashamed of you, dodging that way," and repeated the remark, "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." The man rose and saluted and said good-naturedly, "General, I dodged a shell once, and if I hadn't, it would have taken my head off. I believe in dodging. "The general laughed and replied, "All right, my man; go to your place."

    For a third time the same shrill whistle, closing with a dull, heavy stroke, interrupted our talk; when, as I was about to resume, the general's face turned slowly to me, the blood spurting from his left cheek under the eye in a steady stream. He fell in my direction ; I was so close to him that my effort to support him failed, and I fell with him.  "

Source: http://www.phrases.org.uk/quotes/last-words/john-sedgwick.html

I think everyone has to admit, the other version of the story is better even if it is.... er, stretched somewhat.

Brian

Edited to correct a simple mistake regarding what century something may have occurred in.

[just gone]

So where's Conniesaki now? Really?

As the story goes.....

John 'Uncle John' Sedgwick. Born in Connecticut in 1813, graduated West Point in 1937. A Colonel at the start of the Civil War (of the 'War between the States' for my southern brethren) he rose in rank to Major General at the time of his death in VA, 1864. He is really remembered for two things: one is certainly true, the other one is sketchy but makes a great story either way.

First, he was the highest ranking US officer to be killed during the Civil War, or more accurately, was one of two Major Generals to be killed in action during that war (the other was John Reynolds, killed at Gettysburg, 1863).

The other thing that is notable is that during the battle of Spotsylvania Court House, he stood tall and tried to rally his men while they ducked and cowed. He showed frank amazement as there was nothing but occasional rifle fire, no artillery or even concentrated rifle fire aimed anywhere near him or his men and even that being fired from at least 1,000 yards and further away. He berated and bullied them in an effort to get them to stand and man the artillery pieces he commanded without success and finally said: "They could not hit an elephant at this distance!" but never actually finished the final word as a confederate sharp- shooter hit him and killed him where he stood; he was dead before he hit the ground.

As I said, it is a great story. But another version, this one by Gen. Sedgwick's adjutant, who was present when the General was killed, said this:

"    I gave the necessary order to move the troops to the right, and as they rose to execute the movement the enemy opened a sprinkling fire, partly from sharp-shooters. As the bullets whistled by, some of the men dodged. The general said laughingly, "What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." A few seconds after, a man who had been separated from his regiment passed directly in front of the general, and at the same moment a sharp-shooter's bullet passed with a long shrill whistle very close, and the soldier, who was then just in front of the general, dodged to the ground. The general touched him gently with his foot, and said, "Why, my man, I am ashamed of you, dodging that way," and repeated the remark, "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." The man rose and saluted and said good-naturedly, "General, I dodged a shell once, and if I hadn't, it would have taken my head off. I believe in dodging. "The general laughed and replied, "All right, my man; go to your place."

    For a third time the same shrill whistle, closing with a dull, heavy stroke, interrupted our talk; when, as I was about to resume, the general's face turned slowly to me, the blood spurting from his left cheek under the eye in a steady stream. He fell in my direction ; I was so close to him that my effort to support him failed, and I fell with him.  "

Source: http://www.phrases.org.uk/quotes/last-words/john-sedgwick.html

I think everyone has to admit, the other version of the story is better even if it is.... er, stretched somewhat.

Brian

[B.D.F.]

Not following this one Marty.....

Brian

So where's Conniesaki now? Really?

[Conniesaki]

So where's Conniesaki now? Really?

Aw crap. This feels like a test.

[maxtog]

Aw crap. This feels like a test.

Don't let them trap you...