Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: basmntdweller on May 15, 2012, 11:17:28 AM
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I am sure VirginiaJim will find a better place for this post but I didn't really see a suitable place for it.
I am not the best rider by a long shot. I have always been very leery of entering corners with much speed but I really want to get more aggressive. Last Friday I went riding with a couple friends on some mild twisties. The guy in the lead was riding his HD Ultra Classic that has been lowered a little bit. He was riding like he had a ton of clearance for leaning even though I couldn't believe he wasn't dragging parts. I was following him fairly close and matching his speed through the corners. Many of them were very uncomfortable for me. The speeds were uncomfortable because while I know my C-14 is much more capable than his Harley, the warning bells and sirens were going off in my head on many corner entries and when lean angles were getting steeper than I was comfortable with.
I know my Connie is more than capable and I know I can ride through this stuff but how do I quiet these warnings going off in my head? I need to mention that we were not going all that fast. We followed a car for a while and the car wasn't having any problems with the pace and it wasn't holding us up. My other vehicle is a 4WD Chevy truck and I have rode my bike through corners at my warning level speeds and come back through in my truck at same speed and it is no big deal. How do I get past this irrational fear??? I want to do a few track days this year to try to help this but not sure that is really the answer. I remember this fear was prevalent even as a kid on bicycles so it is pretty deep seated.
FWIW, I really enjoyed the ride the other day even though I was in a controlled panic at times.
Any ideas? Matt
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Don't out-ride your comfortable limits no matter what model bike you are on. That goes for street or track too.
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Running stock tires? If so, dump'em. I had no confidence in them, and rode like it as a result.
Advance Rider Course also helps let you know what your doing wrong and gives you the confidence to do it right.
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... How do I get past this irrational fear??? ...
That fear isn't irrational at all, it is fear of what COULD happen that keeps you safe.
What will change in time, and with practice, is that you fear threshold will be raised. Track days are a good place, as would be an advanced rider course. Seat time in a controlled environment where someone with more experience and knowledge can help guide you through your current threshold. This will lead to you gaining confidence in YOURSELF... and this is what will begin to quell you fears at the maneuvers you were talking about.
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Ride how you are comfortable riding, riding safely is much more important than keeping up with a buddy.
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There is no better way to learn than practice, but short of that, when coming over from the dark side to the C14, I found a great deal of benefit from reading Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough, along with Total Control by Lee Parks. Both are available on Amazon. These are good resources with many practical lessons to be learned. After reading them, I find myself practicing specific techniques from them in my everyday riding.
On that note, I personally have nearly 100,000 miles under my belt on HDs (and loved every mile by the way) and can attest that the C14 can do things, with margin to spare, that I would have never attempted on my Harleys. Even on what is HDs best handling configuration, the Dyna line, there was simply no way to ride even marginally as agressive as possible on the Concours. For me, the change came when I rode with others on sport touring bikes, me on an Ultra Classic, on a long distance ride and I simply could not stay within the same area code. I'm not the best rider in the world, I know, but do have nearly 30 years of riding experience, many thousands of miles of riding, and years of experience competing on dirt, and low speed drills, and find the C14 to be up to the task. Yes, there are sport bikes that may handle better and be faster, but from a versatility standpoint, I just can see any bike that will do as much.
Bottom line - learn as much as you can in theory, and in practice, but don't push past your comfort level, especially on the street or open road. And when riding within your comfort zone, and this comes straight from David Hough, when you get into a bad situation, you have a margin left to give. Lee Parks uses the analogy of have $10 worth of capability. If you are expending $9.50 around a corner and there is a bump (or gravel, or wildlife, or a vehicle, or, or) in your path, having $.050 left in your wallet is not enough. Why risk it?
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I took Abate's advanced class a couple years ago and again last August, shortly after getting my Connie.
I call the fear irrational because I know both me and the bike are capable of much more. Keepin up with my buddy the other day was very helpful and fun even though I was on edge a lot because him going through the corners on a less capable bike gave me the confidence I needed to follow him through.
My stock tires are getting close so I will have a set of PR3's in the next few weeks. Although I never felt the tires were holding me back in the least.
I have had this issue on the dirt bikes too. Went down a few times because of it but I have learned the lesson now that the only way out of a bad or uncomfortable situation is to buck up and ride through it.
If I am not pushing my limits a bit, I'll never get better.
Thanks, Matt
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In addition to my "irrational" fear situation, I have made the turn into my addition literally hundreds of times, likely at nearly the same speed. I still get that warning buzzer going off as I turn in. Before I am even 1/3 of the way through the turn, I know I could have gone way faster.
If most of you guys were to follow me, you'd all be wondering why is this guy going so slow!
Straight line speed on the bike and cornering in cars doesn't faze me in the least. I raced dirt late models through the '90's so high speed corners wasn't a problem there.
Matt
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I am sure VirginiaJim will find a better place for this post but I didn't really see a suitable place for it.
I am not the best rider by a long shot. I have always been very leery of entering corners with much speed but I really want to get more aggressive. Last Friday I went riding with a couple friends on some mild twisties. The guy in the lead was riding his HD Ultra Classic that has been lowered a little bit. He was riding like he had a ton of clearance for leaning even though I couldn't believe he wasn't dragging parts. I was following him fairly close and matching his speed through the corners. Many of them were very uncomfortable for me. The speeds were uncomfortable because while I know my C-14 is much more capable than his Harley, the warning bells and sirens were going off in my head on many corner entries and when lean angles were getting steeper than I was comfortable with.
I know my Connie is more than capable and I know I can ride through this stuff but how do I quiet these warnings going off in my head? I need to mention that we were not going all that fast. We followed a car for a while and the car wasn't having any problems with the pace and it wasn't holding us up. My other vehicle is a 4WD Chevy truck and I have rode my bike through corners at my warning level speeds and come back through in my truck at same speed and it is no big deal. How do I get past this irrational fear??? I want to do a few track days this year to try to help this but not sure that is really the answer. I remember this fear was prevalent even as a kid on bicycles so it is pretty deep seated.
FWIW, I really enjoyed the ride the other day even though I was in a controlled panic at times.
Any ideas? Matt
Matt,
Take some time to book a track day and start out in the slow group to gain confidence. Your peg feeler will let you know when lean angles are getting low. Get the suspension set up for your riding style and change to better tires.
Ride your ride and remember, smooth is fast. ;D
Jon.
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I think you will gain more confidence as time on the bike adds up, it took me a while to feel safe cornering on the Concours, my concern was "is the rear tire going to stick or wash out". All my riding in the past was on cruisers and compared to them the Concours is easier to ride for me.
My son drives a dirt Super Late Model in the Comp Cams Series here in the midsouth, if you can wheel a Late Model I know you have skills, just give it some time.
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The Connie is not a bike for rookies and needs an adequate time to get absorbed and to become one thing with the pilot.
It's way too heavy and even if the tires are wide, the initial feeling is...to slip away!
Do not compare the Connie with the Ultra, because the center of gravity of the latter is lower and helps a lot when curving.
My suggestion is to drive it relaxed, no hurry to stay behind another bike.
You'll naturally feel more comfortable day after day.
A riding course can help, but, IMO, it's not mandatory...
Regarding the stock tires, it's true: they are not of the same class of the bike!
Gonna change them asap with something with more grip! ;)
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My son drives a dirt Super Late Model in the Comp Cams Series here in the midsouth, if you can wheel a Late Model I know you have skills, just give it some time.
My home track was Brownstown IN but ran Eldora every chance I got. I miss racing so much but I am too old and too broke to play that game anymore.
Take some time to book a track day and start out in the slow group to gain confidence. Your peg feeler will let you know when lean angles are getting low. Get the suspension set up for your riding style and change to better tires.
Ride your ride and remember, smooth is fast. ;D
I could extend my peg feelers 6" and they'd still be in no danger of getting scratched up!
I really want to do a track day or several for that matter but I just don't want to put my Connie at risk. I had been looking for a cheaper used 600 strictly for a track bike but nothing good has come up in my price range. I probably should have kept my V-Strom and used it but I thought I could sell it and and get something for less than half what I sold it for.
As I mentioned above, tire grip isn't a concern. I am nowhere near the limits of even the stock tires. I still have about an inch of chicken strip showing on the rear. Too bad most of you are scattered so far away. It would be great to ride with someone who could teach and critique before I headed to a track day.
I think I'll run down to the library and see if I can't pick up either of the books Dalroo mentioned.
Matt
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Ditto what everyone else is saying... Ride at the pace you are comfortable with and take a MSF riders course. I took two of them last year after I bought the bike and it help allot in building confidence. Also highly highly recommend a track day they have a entry level group and they give you great instruction (at least the one I was in) I put 30k miles on the Concours last year and now I am hitting the peg feelers when riding and feel very comfortable in my skills and the bikes abilities. Also I had my suspension setup and that also made a huge improvement over the bike's handling in the tight stuff...
Anyways have fun, be safe and most of all enjoy yourself.
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Ditto with me too. A lot of good/excellent posts above. This is really a very good thread.
Matt, you are not alone. I am by no means a fast/aggressive bike driver either. And I am even less so on the Concours than any other bike I have owned. Mostly because it is higher and heavier, it just scares me. Despite the weight and height, it is a very powerful bike, more power than anything else I have owned, so that doesn't help matters. In the past, most of the time I rode with (always followed) a friend, who is a MUCH better bike rider than I am. And that changes everything. If he could do it, I knew it was safe for me to do also, if I did it the same way... and with practice and repeating, I started to learn what was possible- which is far, far, far more than my internal warning system would ever have allowed. And it was far less than what my other bikes could do, too.
Unfortunately, he moved away, and I upgraded to the Concours and have never ridden with anyone again, since. I lost my practice and have no idea what the limits of the Concours are (yes, they are a zillion times higher than any Harley, but that is not the point). It doesn't help that as I get older, I am more afraid and nervous than ever. But, for me, it is not a contest. I really don't care if I am fast "enough" in corners... I am riding to either have fun or to get someplace. Both can be accomplished without pushing the envelope.
The alarms in your head CAN keep you safe, even if you would be safe going twice as fast. I know if I don't do something stupid, the Concours (yes, even on stock tires) can go way beyond my worst panic alarms. What scares me more is what I can't see- a sudden something around a corner, a deer jumping out, a car turning in front of me, a car veering into my lane. There are times it is hard for me to relax and enjoy a ride because I know just how dangerous riding a bike can be. Fortunately, I have never had a bad accident or wipeout; if I did, I am probably one of those people who could simply not recover and ride again :(
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my first question would be, is the bike "setup" for you? when I first got mine it scared the crap outta me until I learned how to set the bike up and make adjustments on it. the difference was night and day only after having the c14 for a month or so. with a good setup I was not leaning and working so hard with the bike. curves that required me to almost lay the bike over are now few.
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This IS a good thread. What you describe are what Keith Code refers to as "survival reactions." His Twist of the Wrist II video is worthwhile. I am no Valentino Rossi, and although I think I am pushing my personal evelope I know I am not (peg feelers aren't too beat up). My concerns about going into a turn too hot is not that I won't be able to lean enough (because I know the PR3s and the bike are more than capable) but that there will be something in the road that will take me down. Tar snakes, actual snakes (had a couple of those in the road in the middle of a turn) and dreaded sand can ruin a nice run through twisties. I have not done a track day, and want to do so. Nonetheless, I prefer to take it a bit easy and be upright than to push into a corner faster than my ability or the environment will allow. Nonetheless, when conditions are optimal I do take the opportunity to go into a turn just a bit faster than I would otherwise in order to extend my comfort zone and have some fun.
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First, kudos to the forum for the empathy and kindness of the responses.
Next, awareness, caution and prudence are all good things to have when riding. Fear is not. Knowledge, then skill, will help eliminate that fear.
Personal experience. I rode 150k miles in my first motorcycling career, and really didn't know how to ride. I fell off/crashed a few times early on and really didn't understand why. I felt the fear of cornering every time I leaned the bike over, because I didn't know if I would crash again. I rode faster on the straights to prove that I wasn't a coward. When I took up riding again after a 14 year absence, I was scared riding in a straight line. I almost ran off the road when I panicked in a corner and stood it up on the brakes. So I decided to learn more about riding, and it has made a huge difference. I'm still not one of the "fast guys", but I am much more comfortable cornering now.
A few things will help you right now, but please followup with the books and videos and classes mentioned above and below. First, don't follow closely going into a corner. Learn to adjust your speed prior to the corner, so that you can feel comfortable accelerating slightly throughout the corner. Now is not the time to practice late-braking, that will come later, if you desire. Next, keep you eyes level with the road/horizon and look ahead through the corner. You want to be focusing 2-3 seconds (or more) ahead of the bike. This will slow the bike down in your perception and will make an amazing difference. Let your peripheral vision take care of the closer stuff. You can practice focusing ahead even when you are riding on the straights.
Those things will help, but to get where you want to be, read, watch, and learn from the pros. I would recommend starting with David L Hough's Proficient Motorcycling. He also wrote More Proficient Motorcycling. These are very much real-life and street oriented, and do an excellent job. In no particular order, I also highly recommmend Nick Ienatsch's Sport Riding Techniques, Lee Parks' Total Control, Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist I & II (both book and video), and Jerry Palladino's Ride Like a Pro video. Parks, Code and Palladino also offer training classes. FWIW, it was Code in Twist I that talks about your $10 of attention, not Parks. Most of the instruction is very similar, but the styles and teaching methods are just different enough to make each a valuable investment in yourself. Palladino is the odd man out in the group as his focus is mostly on low-speed (parking lot speeds) handling, whereas the others focus more on street, highway and tract handling.
Hope that helps you as much as it has me.
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My home track was Brownstown IN but ran Eldora every chance I got. I miss racing so much but I am too old and too broke to play that game anymore.
I could extend my peg feelers 6" and they'd still be in no danger of getting scratched up!
I really want to do a track day or several for that matter but I just don't want to put my Connie at risk. I had been looking for a cheaper used 600 strictly for a track bike but nothing good has come up in my price range. I probably should have kept my V-Strom and used it but I thought I could sell it and and get something for less than half what I sold it for.
As I mentioned above, tire grip isn't a concern. I am nowhere near the limits of even the stock tires. I still have about an inch of chicken strip showing on the rear. Too bad most of you are scattered so far away. It would be great to ride with someone who could teach and critique before I headed to a track day.
I think I'll run down to the library and see if I can't pick up either of the books Dalroo mentioned.
Matt
Matt,
Don't worry about taking the Connie to ride for a track day as there are a great deal of people on this forum that have done just that.
As long as you listen to the ride instructor all will be good. Track schools are there for a reason so that you will learn the following;
1) Throttle control
2) Head position (and arm position)
3) Braking points
4) Apex in and out of a corner/corners
5) Engine response for a particular gear on a corner or series of corners that you will learn very quickly is best (not 6th unless it is a fast sweeper)
6) Classroom lectures enhancing your learning and the art of riding safely and correctly executing each corner and straight away on a track
7) Blah blah
8) Beer tent
9) Food
10) Only joking for "7 through10" ;D ;D ;D ;D
Have confidence (do not over do it though) but respect the beast is my motto! ;D
Jon.
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lt1,
All the things you mention I am doing already. Been through ABATE basic once and Advanced twice. I was looking at a review of Hough's first book and I think I have already read it once. I went ahead and ordered it and Lee Parks' book from Amazon. It can't hurt to read it again.
I wasn't following my buddy real close, just close enough to see his entry and get an idea of how far he was leaning. I was far enough back that if he went down I had plenty of time to stop. I didn't expect him to have any problem though. While he has only been riding on the street about 3 years, he has been on bikes since he was 6 years old. Only 3 years in his life of 52 years he wasn't riding a bike since he got his first one.
I still go back to you can't gain the skill and confidence to alleviate the fear without pushing beyond your comfort limits. So what is the best way to do so? Track days would play a part but they are expensive and not that frequent at least here in my area. Riding with someone in the lead that is going just a little over your comfort speed is the most available to me but even that is not that often. I can only handle about 4 hours a day in the saddle and decent roads are about an hour away.
Matt
On a lighter note, a young couple that is friends of mine from Texas took this week for a vacation to the Dragon. Ashley got her first knee drag today and her fiance was scraping his boot regularly. They are having a great time. I wouldn't begin to try to keep up with them. She was really happy with it. They are both riding SV 650s.
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If you add good tires and pull the bags off, you'll be shocked to see how nice this bike is. Both take away from what the machine really is...and how damn good it is.
Find some good, fast (70mph) sweepers to build confidence. Then move on from there.
But Jeremy Mitchell nailed this. A slow rider looks safe. A fast rider, wadded up on the side of the road looks like an idiot.
Now, if you really want to figure this out, in a safe way, find an old dirt bike. Borrow one, buy one, whatever. Find a nice isolated trail or track and go nuts. You'll learn bikes love to slide and its no big deal....the c14 is just abig dirt bike, really. It too loves to slide and will do it all day long.
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Reading, training, practice are all good and nec. but in the end a leap of faith may berequired to overcome your lean angle alarm. Human heads come with a built in tilt meter and lean angle alarm, trouble is its not calibrated for a motorcycle, even a Harley. I believe in everyone's riding career there is a point at which he/she must overcome that internal alarm and recalibrate the meter. It was that way for me. I won't suggest you ignore your fears - you may well get yourself killed. I am just saying we all have a natural instinct to overcome to get to a certain level.
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I think lather pretty much nailed it. My level meter in my head is out of calibration and overly sensitive.
Rcannon409, I have a nice old dirt bike. Been riding it for years. The guy leading on the Harley was my mentor on the dirt. He gave up the dirt after a knee replacement brought on by a couple falls on the dirt. I've known him for 20 years and he swore he wasn't going to ride on the street. Giving up dirt changed his mind.
By the way, I have the same warning buzzers going off all the time on dirt too. I had a little practice loop at a friends house that I used to ride for hours. I could slide it around every corner, nice roost on a couple coming out. I had a blast doing it but every corner entry I had to fight to ignore the warning bells! I need to clean the carb on my dirt bike and get it out some. I tried to take it down the street on one warm day back in March but never got it to fire up.
Matt
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I tend to disagree with the idea that dirt biking will help overcome your problem. They help overcome a fear of sliding or getting loose, but that doesn't seem to be your issue. I did not mention countersteering earlier. Do you understand, practice and believe in countersteering?
Other than the reading/training suggestions, I don't think any of my further opinions or suggestions would be of much help.
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This IS a good thread. What you describe are what Keith Code refers to as "survival reactions." His Twist of the Wrist II video is worthwhile. I am no Valentino Rossi, and although I think I am pushing my personal evelope I know I am not (peg feelers aren't too beat up). My concerns about going into a turn too hot is not that I won't be able to lean enough (because I know the PR3s and the bike are more than capable) but that there will be something in the road that will take me down. Tar snakes, actual snakes (had a couple of those in the road in the middle of a turn) and dreaded sand can ruin a nice run through twisties. I have not done a track day, and want to do so. Nonetheless, I prefer to take it a bit easy and be upright than to push into a corner faster than my ability or the environment will allow. Nonetheless, when conditions are optimal I do take the opportunity to go into a turn just a bit faster than I would otherwise in order to extend my comfort zone and have some fun.
Indeed
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Do a couple of track days ;)
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Counter steering, you can't ride a bike without it! After my basic Abate class started talking about it, I kind of figured it out for myself and much of the physics of bike design and riding started falling into place.
Matt
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If you add good tires and pull the bags off, you'll be shocked to see how nice this bike is. Both take away from what the machine really is...and how damn good it is.
I can certainly go for the tires, but exactly how to the bags negatively affect cornering or "niceness" of the bike. The bags are one of the best things about the Concours...
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I can certainly go for the tires, but exactly how to the bags negatively affect cornering or "niceness" of the bike. The bags are one of the best things about the Concours...
I fully agree, but, as a matter of fact, you run better without bags: just think of the weight you get rid of (Connie's saddlebags are not light like feathers... ;))
Moreover, I also mount the case and If I take the hands off the handlebar at a speed of let's say 35/40 mph, I can see the handle bar slightly shaking.
It could be solved (or reduced) with a proper set up of the suspensions, but I'm lazy and using the hands "properly" I don't feel that difference ;)
As a general rule, the "cleaner" the bike, the "smoother" it rides! :)
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I still go back to you can't gain the skill and confidence to alleviate the fear without pushing beyond your comfort limits. So what is the best way to do so? Track days would play a part but they are expensive and not that frequent at least here in my area. Riding with someone in the lead that is going just a little over your comfort speed is the most available to me but even that is not that often. I can only handle about 4 hours a day in the saddle and decent roads are about an hour away.
Matt
If you're just talking about lean angle, it seems to me you can use the Lee Parks' Total Control approach and work on that in a parking lot at slower speeds. If the turn is tight enough, you could be dragging your peg feelers at 20 or 30 mph. I've used this approach to work on overcoming this same fear, and it's helped me remove all of the other distractions and fears to focus on the one fear: lean angle. The biggest help for me was knowing I could take a little risk, enter the "test turn" outside my comfort zone, and, if I blew it, I could just straighten out the turn and circle back to try again.
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Maybe in the same boat as the OP 3,500 miles in, for me I'm thinking the stock tires have a lot to do with it, it's a wrestling match to get the Connie leaned. Not sweating it to much still learning the bike, so if I need to so slower through the curve that cool...for now.
Was on the Connie following a buddy on a Yamaha Tenere through some mild twistes and he noticed I was falling way back as we were going through them, opposed to taking the same curves on my DR650 with a Kendra tire at way more speed.
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The more I ride, the more lean I can get without encountering discomfort. I have a maximum lean angle today, but as I ride there more often, the "maximum" gets further over. It's just about practice and time in the saddle.
I guess I'm saying, if you're 90% confident at 70% lean today, eventually you'll become 100% confident at 70% and 90% confident at 80% lean. Once you're at 100% confident at 80% lean, ..., etc. etc. etc.
Next thing you know you're taking corners at 2.5x the posted recommended speed and dragging your elbow and knee. Well, maybe not on this bike.
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The Connie is designed to be safe and maintain grip right up to and beyond the point where something will scrape. The only issue is the knee-jerk fear (unfounded) that you might slide and the resultant grab brakes and stand the bike up reaction. The last will hurt you. Relax and let the bike do it's thing, DO NOT freak and input brake or steering commands.
Chances are most of you have probably leaned your bike much further than you ever realized. Take a look at the lean angle on my avatar, almost touching the shifter and completely safe with worn Angel tires.
Smoothness does it every time. Disclaimer - none of the above applies to people running car tires!
Fretka
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That fear isn't irrational at all, it is fear of what COULD happen that keeps you safe.
Yep.. true statement. But also, you have to realize that no matter how safe you ride, "stuff" happens :o
I went down in a gentle sweeper about 25-30mph. Didn't see gravel in the road, and I still have no clue if I did anything "wrong" to cause me to break traction.
Now I've had close calls before. What always amazed me was that I was able to detect, and by some miracle, recover. But I was aware of the whole event.
What amazed me when I experienced "sudden pedestrian syndrome", was that I had *NO* clue what was going on... til I was skidding down the road, divested from the bike.
Safe riding, confidence, skill... didn't seem to play into anything here... sometimes it's just go-time.
(btw... a guy who lives just past that corner came out to help...said I was the 4th bike to go down that year! >:( )
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Press, Lean, and Believe. When ya run out of lean; praying sometimes helps.
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It sound like you can benefit from an MSF ERC (aka BRC2). This course has a lot of focus on basic cornering technique and will go a long way to identify what may be causing your cornering apprehension and difficulties. During the course the Ridercoaches can evaluate and coach you in the use of proper cornering technique. After the course you can then practice these skills more on your own and be ready for a more advance course like the MSF ARC-ST, Total Control, or maybe even a good track school.
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As I mentioned before I have been through the ERC twice through my local ABATE group.
(btw... a guy who lives just past that corner came out to help...said I was the 4th bike to go down that year! >:( )
Could be the same guy that keeps spreading the sand across the lane >:(
I have a email in to Sportbike Track Time. I am going to try to do a 2 day weekend over Memorial day if I can work out the details. It will be at the track in Joliet IL. It will be the South course on Sunday and the Full course on Monday. They claim to teach in classroom as well as coach on track sessions. Of course, I will be registering for the slow novice group. If I was sure nothing would happen to my bike, I'd just ride up for the weekend but not that confident. Planning to trailer Connie there and back.
Matt
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Maybe in the same boat as the OP 3,500 miles in, for me I'm thinking the stock tires have a lot to do with it.
I was fighting mine in the curves on the stock tires to maintain my lean angle (the bike wanted stand back up all the way through), after installing PR3s it was a totally different bike....Night and day I would say.
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The other day, my wife commented to me that I am seemed to be more confident on the bike. Music to my ear because she lost confidence herself when I dumped her quite a few months ago on a slow U-turn. When I am riding solo (which is not that often), I practise taking corners a bit more aggressively and do slow speed maneuvering. This helped a ton. But as others have pointed out, switching out the front tire made a big difference as well. The stock tire was getting an odd shape, feels like it slips when taking corners, and really felt weird. After switching out (albeit it is a Shinko - not a PR2 or PR3), I can now appreciate how different it is with the new tire - the bike corners with so much less input. I do however want to point out that with wife on the back, I still get a bit nervous (which is bad) on slow speed cornering. Although she is about 120 lbs or so, I definitely feel that weight on slow speeds. Twisties is another story - she just does not like it when the bike leans too much - she will do all kinds of crazy stuff on the back. I keep telling her she will get us both killed or maimed. Not that I lean that much to begin with, my feeler will be good few inches off the ground and yet she does not like it whatsoever. So, guess no twisties for me unless solo, which is fine by me. But I do need to gain more confidence on slow speed with her on board. I am taking some ERC this June and hope I learn a few tricks.
I also wants to point out that knowing your limits, which can manifest itself as fear, is a good thing. But with fear can come nervousness and that can be a bad thing. When you are taking a corner and you get nervous, you can make all kinds of mistake.
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Press, Lean, and Believe. When ya run out of lean; praying sometimes helps.
But proper safety equipment helps even more: certified full face helmet, armored jacket, gloves, heavy boots....
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I find the C14 to be very easy to ride quickly and easily in the twisty bits, very balanced and carries the weight very well. I just wish it had a reverse, that is the only time I really notice the weight. :o And yes proper tires makes a big difference.
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I ordered a set of PR3's from Murphs today. Looking into somebody to get them mounted up as soon as they come in. I'm trying to arrange either one track day or maybe a two day weekend up in Joliet IL. I have a couple questions about tires and coolant but I'll ask them in another thread.
Matt
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Had an issue a few years ago with wife on the back of a non-Connie. We were riding the Talimena scenic drive in OK/AR. Right hand curve switched back into a left hand curve. Wife decided that she wanted to lean right in the midddle of the left curve. Bike sat upright and off road onto the right shoulder. Managed to get it stopped on the dewy grass without killing us both. We then had a roadside "discussion" about what a passenger's responsibilities are when in a corner. "Lean with me, or don't lean at all, but NEVER lean against me!!"
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Had an issue a few years ago with wife on the back of a non-Connie. We were riding the Talimena scenic drive in OK/AR. Right hand curve switched back into a left hand curve. Wife decided that she wanted to lean right in the midddle of the left curve. Bike sat upright and off road onto the right shoulder. Managed to get it stopped on the dewy grass without killing us both. We then had a roadside "discussion" about what a passenger's responsibilities are when in a corner. "Lean with me, or don't lean at all, but NEVER lean against me!!"
I was guilty of that once! My best friend in high school had just bought a new bike. I was buying his old bike so he trailed me up to the dealership so he could pick up his new one and I'd ride his old/my new one back home. I had not ridden much at that time maybe 10 miles just to see how his old one rode. When he leaned the bike over for a interstate ramp it scared me and I leaned over the other way so that I was straight up. He bitched about that all day, even at the dealership >:(. That was the bike that later put me in the hospital when I half slid out in a corner and took to the cornfield. Nothing like great high school memories ;D
Matt
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Two words. Ride relaxed. Heres what we use for the Advanced Street Skills at Pacific Raceways. SMART, Scan what's in front of you/the horizon, Mark your entry point, better delayed then early, Adjust your speed and body position, RELAX, Throttle (smoothly) off corner. Any braking (the engine is a brake as well, maintain at a minimum a steady throttle, as the bike leams more the diameter of the tire changes, becoming smaller, this is why throttle should be added in moderation) should be accomplished before the corner, don't worry about trail braking, that will come with time and training. Steady throttle will keep the suspension stable and smooth roll on as your are exiting will help stand the bike up. Worth repeating, ride YOUR ride, take a course, an advanced course that isn't race centered, you are looking for real life training, less of course ya looking to take Rossi's ride ;)
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This is something that I wrestle with all the time. Speaking of wrestling, one poster mentioned he has to wrestle his bike in the turns. If you're wrestling the bike, you're doing something wrong. Whenever I find myself getting nervous the accompanying tension that comes with it, I try to tell myself to relax. If I'll do that, lean the bike, shift my position properly, relax a bit, the bike just goes smoothly around the corner.
Also with a passenger, the ride is completely different. I'm too old to try to impress a passenger. Plus my wife has been riding with me for some 12 years. I don't need to impress her any more. I ride much more conservatively with her on it, both for her protection and just because the bike handles so much differently with a passenger. I'll save the risk taking for when it is just me and I'm prepared for it.
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A big +1!
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This is something that I wrestle with all the time. Speaking of wrestling, one poster mentioned he has to wrestle his bike in the turns. If you're wrestling the bike, you're doing something wrong. Whenever I find myself getting nervous the accompanying tension that comes with it, I try to tell myself to relax. If I'll do that, lean the bike, shift my position properly, relax a bit, the bike just goes smoothly around the corner.
Also with a passenger, the ride is completely different. I'm too old to try to impress a passenger. Plus my wife has been riding with me for some 12 years. I don't need to impress her any more. I ride much more conservatively with her on it, both for her protection and just because the bike handles so much differently with a passenger. I'll save the risk taking for when it is just me and I'm prepared for it.
Wise words.
I found out how fun it can be to slow down and enjoy the scenery a little more rather than just blowing by at mach 3. Of course there is a time and place for everything but riding at 6-7/10ths instead of 9/10ths makes for a much more enjoyable day.
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I used to have the same alarm setpoint you did. What worked for me was to conciously keep my head parallel to the pavement and I felt much more comfortable. Also I try to look up through the turn to the outlets, not at the scary entry points. This works on pillion riders too.
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I thought I would revive/update this thread. Over the weekend I finally had the opportunity to do a track day. It was at Putnam Park road course in west central Indiana. It is a 10 turn 1.8 mile track with a really long front stretch. The event was ran by Sportbike Track Time and I have nothing but good things to say about the operation, the track and the coaches.
I elected to ride in the slowest group of the novice class. There were 6 groups of 5 plus their coach in the novice class. With 36 riders on track it wasn't too crowded. My coach was Kevin T or at least that is what his jersey said that he wore over his leathers. His first comment was an apology that our first couple sessions would be "painfully slow". By the time we were on our fourth lap I was convinced my Connie and me were in over our head. By the end of the first session I had settled in a bit and was a little more comfortable. The alarms were still going off in my head but didn't seem as loud. Our first four sessions were all basically led by our coach but he would drop back and follow/observe us and then give us points to work on. The last three sessions were sort of a free for all with limited passing allowed. I ran the fifth session pretty much on my own, passed a few riders and a few passed me but I felt I was all over the track by the end of the session. I asked my coach for help during the next session. He led me for a while and then had me lead him so he could watch. Between that session and the last session he came over to my pit and gave me some more instructions. In the last session he was going to follow me and watch again after two laps he blew by me and I never saw him again. After the session ended he showed back up at my pit and said he ducked in the pit just to sneak back behind me so he could observe me with me not thinking I was being watched. He said I was doing far better than the previous session and running lap times right in the middle of the expected novice times. I was very happy with that and really happy with my day.
I had one minor off track excursion where I blew the exit of one corner and then that screwed the entry to the next corner. I just rode off in the grass and got it back on track and continued on. At the end of the day, my Connie was unscathed with the exception of a few scrapes on my peg feelers, something I would never have believed would happen with me at the controls, and some scrapes on my boots.
In the end, I feel I have a little more comfort and ability if needed and at the same time, quite a bit more respect for the dangers of street riding compared to the track. I am not sure I adjusted my lean angle alarms but I did quiet them a bit so I can ride through whatever I need to.
I am now trying to figure out if this is something I want to continue doing. It will not be on my Connie as there is just too much risk of a crash and I owe too much on her to cover out of pocket if it is a bad wreck. I am also really too old to be doing this and there is no real future in it. I have no illusions of getting into real MC racing. I'm thinking maybe an SV650 just for fun and an occasional track day.
Matt
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:thumbs: practice practice practice
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Over the weekend I finally had the opportunity to do a track day. It was at Putnam Park road course in west central Indiana.
I was there and I saw you! You looked like you were having fun, I know I was. I have several friends that have C14's and I have a C10. I was in intermediatr on my FZ1. There was also an FZ1 in your Novice class. My friend was on a Gixxer 1000, orange and black with a white helmet. I had another friend riding in advanced. We had a ball. I had never ridden there so I was lost in the morning but picked up the pace as the day went by. I was scraping pegs on my FZ1, a first for me as the pegs are fairly high on that bike. 60 laps at speed, I would shut off at 140 mph on the front straight, what a rush!
BTW, I ran a brand new set of PR2's. They don't look new anymore!
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I was shutting down about 125 down the front straight. I didn't like not being able to see over that hill so I would close the throttle just before the hill and coast the rest of the way. I stayed in third all day with the exception for fourth for the front straight. Connie didn't have any trouble coming out of the corners and keeping up with others in the novice class while in third. Turn 7 could have been the exception there but I had more issues with turn 7 than any others. I figured I didn't need to add to my troubles there by possibly overpowering the rear tire with more gear.
I stopped by a couple shops today looking for a track bike and been searching Craigslist and the Bay as well. I really don't have the cash to buy another bike but I know I can't put Connie through that again. I had a new set of PR3s with less than 200 miles on them when I took to the track. I hadn't even looked at my tires until my coach pointed them out. It was kind of a good/bad surprise. I was abusing them pretty good which surprised me as I didn't think I was pushing that hard and it was kind of bad as I would hate to guess how many miles I cut off their life.
It was really a blast and I can't help but want more. The problem is, I am 53yo and not in very good shape. I have doubts my body will be very kind to me if I hurt it and I figure sooner or later, pushing that hard on the track, something bad is bound to happen. AFAIK, there were 6 wrecks on saturday and all but one walked away basically unhurt. I heard one was taken to the hospital and I asked on STT's site about him and they told me it was impolite to ask so I let it go.
Matt