How much clutch drag is OK? *UPDATED/SOLVED*

[Equito]

Sometimes you;ll put a bike in gear on a centerstand, clutch pulled in (to disengage), but the back wheel will turn.  Usually you can stop it with your foot.  Clearly, the clutch plates are not totally disengaged, or the wheel couldn't turn.

Questions - in a properly operating system (clutch, fluid, etc.), should the wheel stop when motor running, in gear, on the centerstand, clutch pulled in?  Or is a little drag OK?  What if you can't stop it with your foot?

I ask because my Concours wheel keeps a turnin', even with foot pressure on the tire, while another bike (chain driven Triumph) will stop the wheel when the clutch is pulled in.

More questions - assuming the clutch shouldn't be dragging that much and the hydraulic system feels like it's bled OK (no mushiness or pump-up needed), what else should I look at?  Star thingy?  Other?

The way this issue came to my attention is that it'd take 2-3 good jabs to get into first from neutral before it'd go in, and upshifts (all shifting with clutch) have been difficult, feel vague.  No crunching, or other sounds.

Bike is '04 and has 5.7K on it, easy use.  I thought the problem was inadequate disengagement due to too-thick handgrips so thinned the grip to where the stocker is, but the problem persists.  Adjuster is on "1" for max disengage.

Any guidance appreciated.

[Daytona_Mike]

Sometimes NEVER put the bike in gear on the center stand and never try and stop it with your foot, use the rear brake.
If you want to know if something is wrong with your clutch, put it in gear while you are on the ground and sitting on  the bike, hold the brake on, slowly let the clutch out , it should engage  further out in the travel and not right away at the beginning when you first let out the clutch lever.
That is how you tell if your getting a good disconnect.  CLEARLY dont do that again. Just adjust your lever out further for more travel if you have thick grips ( I see you did that already)
Also the service manual says to change clutch and brake fluid on a regular basis. When was the last time your was changed?
If you think you have a bad star spring that will cause a funny  'double bump' feed back in your hand and the engine would slip under heavy throttle.
You do not seem to have a slip issue, you may not have any issue at all unless you are engaging too soon  and in that case it would be  time to bleed the air out of the line and/or change fluid. (check the level too)

[Equito]

Sometimes NEVER put the bike in gear on the center stand and never try and stop it with your foot, use the rear brake.
If you want to know if something is wrong with your clutch, put it in gear while you are on the ground and sitting on  the bike, hold the brake on, slowly let the clutch out , it should engage  further out in the travel and not right away at the beginning when you first let out the clutch lever.
That is how you tell if your getting a good disconnect.  CLEARLY dont do that again. Just adjust your lever out further for more travel if you have thick grips ( I see you did that already)
Also the service manual says to change clutch and brake fluid on a regular basis. When was the last time your was changed?
If you think you have a bad star spring that will cause a funny  'double bump' feed back in your hand and the engine would slip under heavy throttle.
You do not seem to have a slip issue, you may not have any issue at all unless you are engaging too soon  and in that case it would be  time to bleed the air out of the line and/or change fluid. (check the level too)

Thanks for the response.  I reply:

1.  I change the brake and clutch fluid every other year and did it this year in March.

2.  Sometimes I have felt the double-bump thing, but not lately, and haven't noticed any slippage, but I don't ride very hard/fast.  I've got Murph's replacement kit so may open up the clutch cover for a look-see, after I make sure there's no air in the system.  Doesn't feel like it, but it's possible.

3.  The bike seems to operate fine in traffic, engages from a stop, doesn't engage too soon, etc.  Feels pretty normal, mostly.  Doesn't try to creep ahead when in gear with the clutch held in.  Apart from this failure-to-disengage-when-on-the-centerstand thing, only issues are difficulty going into first, and lots of foot effort needed to achieve vague undefined upshifts and downshifts.  It's probably been this way for a long time.  I seem to recall starting to notice the problem shifting last year, but with 4 bikes to ride and work on and keep track of, it's easy to run their minor issues together, or to overlook minor issues on one when a major issue's brewing with another.  Incidentally, the other 3 bikes (all chain drive and all with the same grips) all stop spinning their wheels when the clutch is disengaged.

4.  Lever can't go further out.  In fact I bent it out a little further than stock and it still doesn't disengage fully.

As mentioned, I guess I'll open it up and have a look.  Any ideas of what I should be looking for re: lack of disengagement appreciated!

[Daytona_Mike]

Well, I know the type and thickness of  engine oil can effect they way it shifts.
Can you say at which point the clutch engages as you drive away in first? As soon as you start releasing the lever or more like 3/4 or more on  the way out to the end of the lever travel  which would tell you your getting good clutch separation

[Equito]

Well, I know the type and thickness of  engine oil can effect they way it shifts.
Can you say at which point the clutch engages as you drive away in first? As soon as you start releasing the lever or more like 3/4 or more on  the way out to the end of the lever travel  which would tell you your getting good clutch separation

It's pretty soon after I start releasing the lever, no more than the first third or half for full engagement, and it may start to engage at 1/4 or so.  The engagement point doesn't seem to be changed from when I bought it at 800 miles.  In fact, none of the running behavior, other than the crappy shifts, has changed.

I'll change the oil first.  I had the bike apart for a long time (2 years or so) while I performed various service/upgrades, and I hodge-podged the most recent oil change with different kinds of what I had around (all good stuff, but different brands/grades) to use them up and to get the bike back on the road, so if oil can affect release/disengagement of the clutch, then that's a definite possibility.  If true, then it would mean the crappy shifts are newer than last year, which is also possible.  I've got to get rid of a couple of these bikes - I'm losing track.

[lt1]

You didn't say whether the bike had been left unridden for a while.  Sometimes, if a bike is inactive for a while, the clutch plates will be sticky/grabby until they loosen back up from normal use.  Usually, a few hundred miles of mixed riding is sufficient to clear the problem.

If you've been riding the bike regularly, then please ignore the comment.  Good luck.

[Equito]

You didn't say whether the bike had been left unridden for a while.  Sometimes, if a bike is inactive for a while, the clutch plates will be sticky/grabby until they loosen back up from normal use.  Usually, a few hundred miles of mixed riding is sufficient to clear the problem.

If you've been riding the bike regularly, then please ignore the comment.  Good luck.

It was laid up for probably 2 years and put back into service in March, and I've probably put only 200-300 miles on it since getting it back on the road.  I wonder if the plates dried out.  I put it in gear and tried to push it without pulling the clutch in and it barely moved with my full force on it.  Yet, it didn't creep at lights.  Anyway, good thought.  New oil on Monday, verify no air in the clutch line, and go from there.  Thanks.

[Boomer]

Whether the wheel turns or not when on the centrestand and in gear is irrelevant.
This can be down to the drag of the engine oil in the clutch.
Mine does it and mine is fine.

The best test is to put her in 1st on level ground, release all brakes, and then rev her a bit keeping the clutch in.
If she pulls forwards then you have clutch drag at which point I'd recommend replacing the clutch fluid and bleeding it thoroughly.
Also change the engine oil using 10W40.
If she still does it after that then you may need to pull the clutch plates and check the steel plates for warp.

[Equito]

Whether the wheel turns or not when on the centrestand and in gear is irrelevant.
This can be down to the drag of the engine oil in the clutch.
Mine does it and mine is fine.

The best test is to put her in 1st on level ground, release all brakes, and then rev her a bit keeping the clutch in.
If she pulls forwards then you have clutch drag at which point I'd recommend replacing the clutch fluid and bleeding it thoroughly.
Also change the engine oil using 10W40.
If she still does it after that then you may need to pull the clutch plates and check the steel plates for warp.

Thanks - good to know a bit of drag is OK, as that was part of my concern.  At this point, there's no creep forward, so I'm thinking it's one or more stuck clutch plates because the bike was laid up a bit (found http://www.dansmc.com/clutches.htm where the author states:  "Sometimes, when a bike has been sitting a long time, like over winter, the clutch plates will stick together. You pull the clutch lever in but the plates will not disengage. About 60-70% of the time you can get them to release by running the bike up to 15-20 MPH and locking up the rear brake while you hold the clutch lever in (disengaged). If this does not break it loose, you will have to take the clutch cover off and with the lever held on, pry the plates apart with a screwdriver and reoil them a bit.").

I'll try his "lock the brakes" fix, then, if needed, his "pry and oil the plates" fix.

[Outback_Jon]

Thanks - good to know a bit of drag is OK, as that was part of my concern.  At this point, there's no creep forward, so I'm thinking it's one or more stuck clutch plates because the bike was laid up a bit (found http://www.dansmc.com/clutches.htm where the author states:  "Sometimes, when a bike has been sitting a long time, like over winter, the clutch plates will stick together. You pull the clutch lever in but the plates will not disengage. About 60-70% of the time you can get them to release by running the bike up to 15-20 MPH and locking up the rear brake while you hold the clutch lever in (disengaged). If this does not break it loose, you will have to take the clutch cover off and with the lever held on, pry the plates apart with a screwdriver and reoil them a bit.").

I'll try his "lock the brakes" fix, then, if needed, his "pry and oil the plates" fix.

Don't bother.  You'll be wasting your time.  That's for an actual stuck clutch.  If your clutch had that problem, the bike would be moving forward as soon as you put it in gear, even with the clutch pulled in.  Even one stuck clutch plate equates to a fully engaged clutch.  Your bike is fine - some rear wheel movement is normal when the bike is on the centerstand.

As for the bike not always going into first:  How is your shifter adjusted?  Mine is quite low, due to an injury, (and Murphs KneeSavers) and it contacts the fairing, sometimes making getting into first difficult.

[paul1k]

Having trouble posting so I hope this goes through.
Ive seen similar issues with a Kaw Vulcan. The owner put regular car oil in it. When shifting from neutral to first when starting off it would clunk then stall + difficult shifting till it got hot.
Make sure your using motorcycle oil. I use Castrol 20w50 M type.
The additives in the car oil are very bad for the clutches. If this is the case you may have to change the oil a few times to get it to clear up. Good luck.

[timsatx]

Now now, don't be snobbish towards automotive oil. That is all I have ever used on my bikes (XS Eleven, Nighthawk 750 and Connie). I have never had a problem. I have been using Rotella Synthetic but this time I switched to Mobile 1 and thus far no problems at all. I have heard of the occasional bike that had issues but the vast majority do not seem to have any problem whatsoever.

[Daytona_Mike]

Well, I am one. It is known to be an issue and I for one had to replace my clutch due to friction modifiers in automotive oil.
They make motorcycle specific oil for a reason.  I wish some one had told me not to do it.
Also,  changing the oil  will not fix it. Once the clutch material has the slippery  stuff impregnated into it  you cannot get it out no mater how many times you change the oil.
I also think the vast majority dont even know they have a problem because they either do not do WOT much if ever and if they did they most likely do not realize the clutch is slipping.

[Equito]

Update - Recall that on centerstand with clutch pulled in (disengaged) I could not stop the spinning wheel with my foot pushed against the tire's side, meaning, the clutch was dragging (failing to completely disengage).  This gave me difficult shifts.  Off the bike, bike in gear, clutch in, the bike is almost impossible to push forward - like pushing through sand (other bikes - notice it's not like being in Neutral, but nowhere near as resistant).

However, sitting on the bike, there's no lurch forward when dropping it into first, and, when holding the clutch in, there is no creep forward, even without my weight on the seat.  Seems like it's easier to edge the bike forward using my legs, but it also seems easy to roll it backwards, too.  That tells me the drag is pretty light, despite not being able to stop the spinning wheel with my foot (recall my other bikes all stop the wheel on their own when the clutch is pulled in).  I use M/C oil, but this batch was a hodgepodge of brands/weights/syn-nonsyn I wanted to use up, so that could be a factor.

Rather than waste an oil change, however, I elected to open the clutch pack for a look at the plates.  The plates measured fine, but I noticed some shiny scraping on some of the tangs on some of the fiber plates.  Can't tell what might have caused the scraping and there's no obvious pattern to it.  The plates looked semi-oiled on their lower halfs, but pretty dry up top.  Oil pipe is clear.  The innermost fiber disk was basically bone dry on the engine side, and it was this disk that scraping on almost every tang, albeit on the steel disk side.

Everything looks good and I don't see any obvious reason for the clutch to drag other than that the dried plates might play a role.  I'm soaking them in Rotella overnight and will change the oil to Mobil 1 Racing 4T once reassembled.

[Cholla]

The problems with automotive oils in bikes is ONLY with the "energy conserving" oils. these are the ones with the friction modifiers.
IOW, the rule of thumb is any oil that is 10-30 or thinner, i.e. 10-30, 5-20, 0-30, the top number being 30 or lower.
There are a couple 10-40s that have the modifiers, IIRC Havoline is one of them.
If the label has the "energy conserving starburst" on it, don't use it in a wet clutch engine.

That being said, the Rotella is perfect for the application, either dino or syn. NOT the 30 wt.

[RapidRoy]

Mine wheel rotates a bit when on the center stand and clutch pulled in. I've never tried to stop the wheel though. It does make sense that there would be some drag given the area of the clutch plates. The clunk when shifting into first attests to that.

[Equito]

Mine wheel rotates a bit when on the center stand and clutch pulled in. I've never tried to stop the wheel though. It does make sense that there would be some drag given the area of the clutch plates. The clunk when shifting into first attests to that.

I'll bet if you (carefully) placed your foot alongside the tire that it'd stop with modest pressure.  Mine would not.  I've soaked the plates in oil and reinstalled the clutch (everything spec'd out OK and looked fine), but have not buttoned it up to test it yet.

[Equito]

Happy to report that soaking the friction plates in oil for a day (probably a couple of hours would have done it) fixed the problem.  Now have more complete disengagement, can stop the rear wheel easily, and better/easier shifts into first, and otherwise.  Celebrated by then changing the hodgepodge oil fill with Rotella's T5 10/30 SemiSyn, but haven't ridden it yet.  Thanks to all who replied.