Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: wb57 on November 30, 2017, 12:29:54 PM
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Yesterday on the morning commute, I got a KTRC Error on the dash. Suspected that it might have something to do with the left side leaking fork seal somehow getting fork oil on the sensor. Spent the day looking around on the forums and found everything from a broken cable coming from the sensor to dirty connectors on the ECU (mine's never been pulled).
Checked before leaving work and felt no fork oil on the sensor (the piece attached to the wheel, not the wired component). Cable looked fine. Didn't reseat the ECU connections figuring I'd get to it this weekend, if need be.
Of course, the error has NOT reappeared since.
Any idea what may have caused it? What triggers this error?
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It wasn't the infamous "F1" error that flashes up for about 10 seconds and goes away was it?
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=336.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=336.0)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9892.msg120432#msg120432 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9892.msg120432#msg120432)
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Probably F1
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I believe a KTRC error is when the traction system senses a differential between the front and rear wheels. Because the sensors are the ABS wheel disc sensing system, you may well be right about oil causing a problem but I sort of doubt it because it is an induction system and should be impervious to oil; exactly how the cam and crank position sensors work perfectly in an oil- bathed environment. Any chance it happened during acceleration? If so, maybe the rear wheel broke traction slightly and turned a but more than the front wheel; it does not take much of a difference to trip the ABS or traction control systems.
Brian
Yesterday on the morning commute, I got a KTRC Error on the dash. Suspected that it might have something to do with the left side leaking fork seal somehow getting fork oil on the sensor. Spent the day looking around on the forums and found everything from a broken cable coming from the sensor to dirty connectors on the ECU (mine's never been pulled).
Checked before leaving work and felt no fork oil on the sensor (the piece attached to the wheel, not the wired component). Cable looked fine. Didn't reseat the ECU connections figuring I'd get to it this weekend, if need be.
Of course, the error has NOT reappeared since.
Any idea what may have caused it? What triggers this error?
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I believe a KTRC error is when the traction system senses a differential between the front and rear wheels. Because the sensors are the ABS wheel disc sensing system, you may well be right about oil causing a problem but I sort of doubt it because it is an induction system and should be impervious to oil; exactly how the cam and crank position sensors work perfectly in an oil- bathed environment. Any chance it happened during acceleration? If so, maybe the rear wheel broke traction slightly and turned a but more than the front wheel; it does not take much of a difference to trip the ABS or traction control systems.
That is a good troubleshooting question. I have had numerous isolated F1 errors, and they were always while just riding- no acceleration, no braking, no engine stutter, nothing. I can't recall what it says on the screen other than "F1" because it is always while moving and disappears very quickly. Curious- is there something on the screen that actually says "KTRC" or something else before the F1 appears?
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I didn't notice an FI error. This was "KTRC Error" displayed on the screen and it didn't go away until I turned off the bike. Unlikely I broke traction. It's a 5 mile route where I rarely hit 45mph in fairly heavy traffic. Two lane start to finish. Was able to clear the dash with the two finger exercise, but the red light remained.
Not mine, but exactly like this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV2N6hrN5x0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV2N6hrN5x0)
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Yep, that is KTRC alright. Pretty rare to see that. Very likely a sensor got fouled/damaged/disconnected, although there are other possibilities.
See
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21099 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21099)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3366 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3366)
Ironically, I have had that error, not in operation, but when I had the bike running on a stand, in gear. :) (I was warming up the shaft drive oil before replacing it). Obviously it was quite upset that the rear wheel was moving but the front was not.
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Yeah, I've seen those threads. Wish I'd known I could pull a code while it was still present. Other than checking and cleaning connections, not sure there's anything else I can do at this point unless the error returns.
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It happened again this morning. Same commute. No traction problems. I did follow up to get the error code this time and it's Error 27. I don't see a list of error codes in the shop manual. Is this published somewhere?
Edit: I did find a list of error codes, but Error 27 isn't listed.
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Error 27 is discussed in topic 21099 that Max provided the link for. On the first page.
Error 27
Front and/or Rear Wheel Rotation Sensor Signal (K-ACT ABS Equipped Models) Front and/or rear wheel rotation sensor must sends 48 signals (front) and 45
signals (rear) to the ECU at the 1 rotation of the wheels. If the front and/or rear wheel rotation sensor system fails (the signal is missing, wiring open), the ECU stops the KTRC control.
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I'd read that thread previously, but rereading it now seems to make more sense. Going to try several things before looking at replacing parts. Error cleared itself during lunch ride. :o
Will start with cleaning rotational sensors and checking clearances on the hall effect sensors. Will clean and reseat ECU connections as well. If it reappears, I'll run the tests on the sensors specified in the manual.
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Start ALL electrical diagnostics on this bike by checking / redoing ground and battery connections. Steve
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Occasionally a sensor has been far enough away from the activation disc (the one with the holes in it) that it cannot sense the metal in- between the holes. That may be your problem.
Also, check both wheel sensor connectors to make sure they are clean and do not have any corrosion in them; Japanese sealed connectors are excellent but if one is missing a seal, for example, water may have entered the connector and caused some corrosion. And of course make sure the connectors are fully engaged by hearing them 'click' and lock into position.
It is possible you have a faulty sensor but that is going to be somewhat difficult to diagnose if it is intermittent, which your problem certainly is.
I would start with the sensor / wheel spacing and alignment, and then check the connectors on each sensor.
Brian
I'd read that thread previously, but rereading it now seems to make more sense. Going to try several things before looking at replacing parts. Error cleared itself during lunch ride. :o
Will start with cleaning rotational sensors and checking clearances on the hall effect sensors. Will clean and reseat ECU connections as well. If it reappears, I'll run the tests on the sensors specified in the manual.
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Start ALL electrical diagnostics on this bike by checking / redoing ground and battery connections. Steve
Easy enough. Will do. Replaced the battery about 18 months ago and haven't had any electrical issues, but will check this first.
Thanks.
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Occasionally a sensor has been far enough away from the activation disc (the one with the holes in it) that it cannot sense the metal in- between the holes. That may be your problem.
Also, check both wheel sensor connectors to make sure they are clean and do not have any corrosion in them; Japanese sealed connectors are excellent but if one is missing a seal, for example, water may have entered the connector and caused some corrosion. And of course make sure the connectors are fully engaged by hearing them 'click' and lock into position.
It is possible you have a faulty sensor but that is going to be somewhat difficult to diagnose if it is intermittent, which your problem certainly is.
I would start with the sensor / wheel spacing and alignment, and then check the connectors on each sensor.
Brian
I'll check them. I feel like I've had them out during tire changes, but not 100% sure. I don't recall hearing/feeling them click into place, but I would have torqued them according to spec. I had planned on pulling them to see if there was any crap on them.
Thanks.
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Visual inspection: There was a good amount of patina/corrosion on the front slotted sensor. Wire wheeled that off. Electrical component looked fine. Rear wheel wasn't as bad corrosion-wise, but lots of road gunk on the sensor. Cleaned it up. Both were within spec as far as clearance. Road test coming up.
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Swing and a miss. Will check electrical connections this weekend. It did go longer than what seems to be "normal" though.
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Do you have a factory manual?
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Do you have a factory manual?
Yes, but it doesn't reference my exact error code. Going to run through all the basics. Didn't get the error at all today. I hate intermittent problems.
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It has to be something to do with either the wiring to or the sensor itself or even the connectors. I was wondering if the manual had any checks on that.
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It has to be something to do with either the wiring to or the sensor itself or even the connectors. I was wondering if the manual had any checks on that.
I'd agree. Basically, I've just looked at the sensors so far. There was some road grime on one sensor and a decent amount of corrosion on the rotor portion on the other wheel. Cleaned those up and I didn't see an error for a couple days or so. But it reappeared the other night. I'll run through the entire list I've got as soon as I've got the time.
There are no specific tests/checks in the manual for this. Trickier when it's sporadic.
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The gap between the face of the sensor and the wheel is pretty critical and cannot exceed a very small amount (cannot remember what that is thouhg). You might want to check that the front and rear sensors have the same gap, as well as both sensors being square (perpendicular) to the wheel. Also, the ideally, the sensor should be centered very closely in the slots in the wheels (not higher or lower than the center of the slot path).
We have seen this kind of failure before with a sensor not mounted quite right due to a bent or misaligned bracket.
Brian
I'd agree. Basically, I've just looked at the sensors so far. There was some road grime on one sensor and a decent amount of corrosion on the rotor portion on the other wheel. Cleaned those up and I didn't see an error for a couple days or so. But it reappeared the other night. I'll run through the entire list I've got as soon as I've got the time.
There are no specific tests/checks in the manual for this. Trickier when it's sporadic.
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The gap between the face of the sensor and the wheel is pretty critical and cannot exceed a very small amount (cannot remember what that is thouhg). You might want to check that the front and rear sensors have the same gap, as well as both sensors being square (perpendicular) to the wheel. Also, the ideally, the sensor should be centered very closely in the slots in the wheels (not higher or lower than the center of the slot path).
We have seen this kind of failure before with a sensor not mounted quite right due to a bent or misaligned bracket.
Brian
I did check the gap when I had them out the other day. They were right at .7mm. Spec is .7-.9mm. I did not check for them being square and/or centered. Assumed there wasn't much of a chance for it to be otherwise.
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I'd agree. Basically, I've just looked at the sensors so far. There was some road grime on one sensor and a decent amount of corrosion on the rotor portion on the other wheel. Cleaned those up and I didn't see an error for a couple days or so. But it reappeared the other night. I'll run through the entire list I've got as soon as I've got the time.
There are no specific tests/checks in the manual for this. Trickier when it's sporadic.
exactly what year manual are you consulting?
I ask, as I have an 08-09 book, and of course it wouldnt show the process, but for those years all the ABS and related testing is shown in depth.. you have a 2010 and up manual? It should show all of this.. I have to dig up the '10 and up book now... but I have to think the process is in there.
I do know that the ABS/speed sensors and rings and computer box ARE different after '09, and not interchangable, just relating that until
I get my later manual found...
ok, I found the book.... consult section 17, extremely filled with everything related to diagnostics....
also, note:
that sensor gap value should be 0.4 to 1.6mm (.015 to .063 inch)( oh, the manual is wrong when reading the inch values....they forgot the decimal point...heheheheh)...
so even though you are in the zone... it could be closer....
but as you replaced rotors back in time, I can't comment further...
it also shows the "B" codes relating to Ktrac/Kact errors, which can be invoked to further sift down the variables in the faults...
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I thought mine was the current manual, but it appears it's for an '08, although this is on the cover:
1400GTR
CONCOURS 14 ABS
CONCOURS 14
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I thought mine was the current manual, but it appears it's for an '08, although this is on the cover:
1400GTR
CONCOURS 14 ABS
CONCOURS 14
I guessed that by the gap measurement you noted.....
pretty good catch eh? 8) :rotflmao: :thumbs:
hang tight, I have something to post, if I can get it to work....
here
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one more
should be all ya need with the rest,
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I guessed that by the gap measurement you noted.....
pretty good catch eh? 8) :rotflmao: :thumbs:
That was, indeed, a good catch.
The factory manual COVER for the 2nd gen looks the same as the 1st gen (with a different photo, since the bikes look different), but the SPINE will have years, something like "2010 - 2012" or later years. The ABS system in the 2nd gen is considerably different than the 1st gen.... probably one of the biggest differences other than cosmetics (mirrors, fairings, covers, windscreen, etc).
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yeah, the photo gives it away...
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Gee, I'm glad you aren't banned here... :rotflmao: Thanks, Rich. :thumbs:
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Gee, I'm glad you aren't banned here... :rotflmao: Thanks, Rich. :thumbs:
yeah, I'm opening shop here for the next 3 months...giving viable tech for free.... I don't foresee getting banned here, :battle: over trivial b/s by someone who hasn't made a contribution to tech even tho it was their job :hail: :nuts: :nuts: :doh: ...., or some snowflakes that say I'm a rude bastiche... :grouphug: :grouphug: :_shudder_Emoticon because you all already know I'm rude... and a curmudgeon...
:hitfan:
the Dude abides...
:thumbs: :thumbs:
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Most excellent!
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yeah, I'm opening shop here for the next 3 months...giving viable tech for free.... I don't foresee getting banned here, :battle: over trivial b/s by someone who hasn't made a contribution to tech even tho it was their job :hail: :nuts: :nuts: :doh: ...., or some snowflakes that say I'm a rude bastiche... :grouphug: :grouphug: :_shudder_Emoticon because you all already know I'm rude... and a curmudgeon...
:hitfan:
the Dude abides...
:thumbs: :thumbs:
...and get off my lawn!
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:rotflmao: And that's why I love this place..
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Hey, it works for me. And I think you are right, you are not nearly abrasive enough to get banned here. Almost no- one is IME. But your real trouble is angering the GOOROOS and their mob of torch and pitchfork bearing packs, and as far as I know, there is none of that here.
Personally, I hope your health recovers sufficiently so that we may get, at least occasionally, some more of those alcohol induced, late- night, badly spelled and wrong- word using (who am I kidding- they were not even words) posts (kinda' like slurring the printed word) rambling on about stuff. I kinda' liked some of those. Really. But mostly, I do hope you health stabilizes and improves even without those fun posts.
And the dues here are pretty low- but combined with the lack of abuse, it is kind of a wash- out I guess. :rotflmao:
Curmudgeon on old man..... :chugbeer:
Brian
yeah, I'm opening shop here for the next 3 months...giving viable tech for free.... I don't foresee getting banned here, :battle: over trivial b/s by someone who hasn't made a contribution to tech even tho it was their job :hail: :nuts: :nuts: :doh: ...., or some snowflakes that say I'm a rude bastiche... :grouphug: :grouphug: :_shudder_Emoticon because you all already know I'm rude... and a curmudgeon...
:hitfan:
the Dude abides...
:thumbs: :thumbs: