Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: wb57 on September 14, 2014, 03:08:34 PM
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Just noticed my front right brake pads are essentially gone, but the left side still has a lot of usable life. I know this is common for this bike with the linked brakes.
Question: is it necessary or even recommended to replace both sides simultaneously? I'll get the EBC HH pads and assume the OEMs are comparable.
Thanks.
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Replace both. EBC HH are good pads, commonly used. OEM's are considered the preference for these particular bikes, but I have HH on mine right now. They work fine.
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I would not hesitate to replace the pads on only one side. No reason to do both if both sides are not worn. Just my <free> opinion though, of course :-)
I have used Gen. 1 OEM, Gen. 2 OEM and EBC and overall, prefer Gen. 2 OEM (C-14 pads 2010 or later). All C-14 pads fit all year bikes so using the earlier or late type pads is not a problem.
The OEM pads also have that wear indicator groove which I find quite useful.
Brian
Just noticed my front right brake pads are essentially gone, but the left side still has a lot of usable life. I know this is common for this bike with the linked brakes.
Question: is it necessary or even recommended to replace both sides simultaneously? I'll get the EBC HH pads and assume the OEMs are comparable.
Thanks.
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I would not hesitate to replace the pads on only one side. No reason to do both if both sides are not worn. Just my <free> opinion though, of course :-)
I have used Gen. 1 OEM, Gen. 2 OEM and EBC and overall, prefer Gen. 2 OEM (C-14 pads 2010 or later). All C-14 pads fit all year bikes so using the earlier or late type pads is not a problem.
The OEM pads also have that wear indicator groove which I find quite useful.
Brian
I guess part of my question is are the Gen 2 OEM (currently on bike) and EBCs close enough in compound that it wouldn't matter if one side was different than the other? I'm going to order two sets, but I am cheap enough to only do one side if it won't cause a problem.
Thanks, some more.
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Replace both. EBC HH are good pads, commonly used. OEM's are considered the preference for these particular bikes, but I have HH on mine right now. They work fine.
Thanks for the reply. Mind if I ask why you'd do both sides if the left still have plenty of life left on them?
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I kind of agree on the replace the worn side, and leave the other side, but if you intend to use something other than the equal of whats on there now, I'd do both sets and keep the compound typical. So if you want EBC's do both sets.
I'll tell you after using EBC's, they friction pucks are not as thick as the OEM's are.
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Just noticed my front right brake pads are essentially gone, but the left side still has a lot of usable life. I know this is common for this bike with the linked brakes.
Why is that common for this bike with the linked brakes?
Isn't one-sided brake pad wear a result of uneven distribution of caliper force and/or a sticky piston?
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Why is that common for this bike with the linked brakes?
Isn't one-sided brake pad wear a result of uneven distribution of caliper force and/or a sticky piston?
On this bike, when you step on the rear brake, it also activates the right, front caliper.
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On this bike, when you step on the rear brake, it also activates the right, front caliper.
Only on the Gen 2s though. Another reason the Gen 1s are superior. :)
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I found almost no difference between Gen. 2 OEM and EBC pads other than two things: 1) the EBC pads have no wear slot indicator and 2) the EBC's are noisy- they make a continuous 'hiss' when used.
As far as I know, all brake pads for a C-14 are HH rated and so there will not be a great difference in pad performance or longevity. So mixing pads or pad types on the same wheel would be fine with me. And besides that, even if there were some reasonably small, say 10%, difference in performance, what difference would it make? Braking slightly harder on one rotor will not present any problem.... after all, for years motorcycles only had one rotor so all the braking was on one side. Two rotors are used simply to increase brake efficiency and reduce pad wear but it is not needed for correct braking to happen.
If I were in your shoes, I would only replace the set of pads that required replacing.
Brian
I guess part of my question is are the Gen 2 OEM (currently on bike) and EBCs close enough in compound that it wouldn't matter if one side was different than the other? I'm going to order two sets, but I am cheap enough to only do one side if it won't cause a problem.
Thanks, some more.
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I found almost no difference between Gen. 2 OEM and EBC pads other than two things: 1) the EBC pads have no wear slot indicator and 2) the EBC's are noisy- they make a continuous 'hiss' when used.
As far as I know, all brake pads for a C-14 are HH rated and so there will not be a great difference in pad performance or longevity. So mixing pads or pad types on the same wheel would be fine with me. And besides that, even if there were some reasonably small, say 10%, difference in performance, what difference would it make? Braking slightly harder on one rotor will not present any problem.... after all, for years motorcycles only had one rotor so all the braking was on one side. Two rotors are used simply to increase brake efficiency and reduce pad wear but it is not needed for correct braking to happen.
If I were in your shoes, I would only replace the set of pads that required replacing.
Brian
Thanks. I ordered two sets of the EBCs, but may replace only the right side based on this train of thought.
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If you do change brands/compounds, it might be a good idea to get the brake leavings off the rotor before the new pads are put on.
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If you do change brands/compounds, it might be a good idea to get the brake leavings off the rotor before the new pads are put on.
Changing brands, yes. Compounds - different manufacturers interpretation of the same compound, I suppose. Not familiar with "brake leavings" or removing them. Could you elaborate? Spray the rotors with brake cleaner? Resurface them somehow?
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Yep, resurface them. At least abrade away any remaining brake pad material, even if using the identical brake pads.
The way modern brakes work is that a significant amount of brake pad material is transferred to the rotors and in turn, it is that material that wears against the new brake pad material. Put another way, the brake pads leave a little brake pad on the rotor and that IS the wear surface. That is why the brake pads wear and the rotors do not, or at least not so much.
The problem is that the pad material is not deposited evenly and that causes brake pulsing. The way to fix it is to remove all the pad material from the rotor and that has to be done mechanically, not chemically or with any solvent. Turning the faces of the rotors (or drums) will do it but that also removes a bit of rotor material. An abrasive pad used against the rotor's surface works great- I like those hard, silicone carbine paint removal pads spun in a drill against the rotor while the rotor slowly turns.... it is easy to do if you have a wheel balancer. That way the surface is very even. But it can be done by hand, just be careful to take off all the original brake pad marks from the rotor and all will be well. And clean the abrasive off the rotors before using them so the abrasive does not get imbedded into the pad and continue to abrade the rotors.
This is how I do it:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/CleaningRotors.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/BDF08012008/media/CleaningRotors.jpg.html)
Brian
Changing brands, yes. Compounds - different manufacturers interpretation of the same compound, I suppose. Not familiar with "brake leavings" or removing them. Could you elaborate? Spray the rotors with brake cleaner? Resurface them somehow?
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Yep, resurface them. At least abrade away any remaining brake pad material, even if using the identical brake pads.
The way modern brakes work is that a significant amount of brake pad material is transferred to the rotors and in turn, it is that material that wears against the new brake pad material. Put another way, the brake pads leave a little brake pad on the rotor and that IS the wear surface. That is why the brake pads wear and the rotors do not, or at least not so much.
The problem is that the pad material is not deposited evenly and that causes brake pulsing. The way to fix it is to remove all the pad material from the rotor and that has to be done mechanically, not chemically or with any solvent. Turning the faces of the rotors (or drums) will do it but that also removes a bit of rotor material. An abrasive pad used against the rotor's surface works great- I like those hard, silicone carbine paint removal pads spun in a drill against the rotor while the rotor slowly turns.... it is easy to do if you have a wheel balancer. That way the surface is very even. But it can be done by hand, just be careful to take off all the original brake pad marks from the rotor and all will be well. And clean the abrasive off the rotors before using them so the abrasive does not get imbedded into the pad and continue to abrade the rotors.
Thanks. I'll grab one of the paint removal wheels today. I'm guessing you just pull against the opposite side of the rotor with the drill/wheel to clean it rather than going through the wheel from the other side?
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I removed my rotors and put them inside out after I did the outsides. Of course, then you put them back the way they were.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17971.msg219869#msg219869 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17971.msg219869#msg219869)
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Due to the measures I have to take to get the front wheel off (not hugely elaborate, but I have to do this outside on a slightly sloped driveway), I'm going to do this with the wheel on the bike. This assumes it doesn't seem like a bad idea once it's underway. I do have a wheel balancer if it gets to that point.
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Just a thought but I would be wary of doing that due to the abrasive flinging around. But if you do do it that way, you might want to wipe down all the moving parts as best you can- wheel bearing points (where the axle hits the seal at least), fork ends, etc. Silicon carbide is nasty, sharp and very aggressive abrasive that you really do not want in / on any moving parts of the bike.
And I think it is going to be quite difficult to get the backside (Easy!) of the rotors w/out taking the wheels off. I flip them around when cleaning them on the tire balancer.
Brian
Due to the measures I have to take to get the front wheel off (not hugely elaborate, but I have to do this outside on a slightly sloped driveway), I'm going to do this with the wheel on the bike. This assumes it doesn't seem like a bad idea once it's underway. I do have a wheel balancer if it gets to that point.
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What mileage do you get out of the front pad
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I got 12,000 out of mine. I'm not sure if that is good or bad :-)
Jeff
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Only on the Gen 2s though. Another reason the Gen 1s are superior. :)
:thumbs: :chugbeer: This is why I bought the 2009 vs the 2010 they had with ABS. I have had experience with linked brakes on a Goldwing, but didn't want it on the Concours if I didn't have to.
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Ok,
I'll ask the question everybody is thinking and no one has bothered to ask.
How would you order a Gen 2 set of brake pads?
How do you know your getting a Gen 2 vs Gen 1 brake pads?
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Ok,
I'll ask the question everybody is thinking and no one has bothered to ask.
How would you order a Gen 2 set of brake pads?
How do you know your getting a Gen 2 vs Gen 1 brake pads?
They're different part numbers.
Check the online retailers. I look at www.rockymountainatv.com (http://www.rockymountainatv.com) for starters.
2010: 43082-0112 PAD-ASSY-BRAKE $62.60
2008: 43082-0071 PAD-ASSY-BRAKE $74.58
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Just a thought but I would be wary of doing that due to the abrasive flinging around. But if you do do it that way, you might want to wipe down all the moving parts as best you can- wheel bearing points (where the axle hits the seal at least), fork ends, etc. Silicon carbide is nasty, sharp and very aggressive abrasive that you really do not want in / on any moving parts of the bike.
And I think it is going to be quite difficult to get the backside (Easy!) of the rotors w/out taking the wheels off. I flip them around when cleaning them on the tire balancer.
Brian
Understood that it would be more difficult to do them in place, but was considering pulling the drill towards me and hitting it from the back or possibly using a longer reach "bit" on the drill and coming from the other side. If this is a stupid idea, I'll just wait until the weekend to pull the wheel.
What do you use to do this other than the silicon carbide wheel?
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Ok,
I'll ask the question everybody is thinking and no one has bothered to ask.
How would you order a Gen 2 set of brake pads?
How do you know your getting a Gen 2 vs Gen 1 brake pads?
Personally I would, and did go with EBC. As stated though, the second generation pads are a different part number. They were redesigned to fix the issue of leaving deposits on the rotors that occurred with the Gen 1 pads. They don't have as much initial bite as the Gen 1 pads from what I hear. Brian can jump in and correct me if I am wrong.
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I put a photo of the way I do it in reply #13 in this thread.
Brian
Understood that it would be more difficult to do them in place, but was considering pulling the drill towards me and hitting it from the back or possibly using a longer reach "bit" on the drill and coming from the other side. If this is a stupid idea, I'll just wait until the weekend to pull the wheel.
What do you use to do this other than the silicon carbide wheel?
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That is what I found- Gen. 2 pads have less initial bite, are less progressive (meaning they do not brake harder, faster (Easy Boys!) as much as Gen. 1 pads do as the lever pressure is increased). Gen.1 brake pads also make an impressive amount of black brake dust- it should be impossible but it seems like there is a pound of brake pad dust all over the bike for every 1/2 oz. of brake pad that is worn away :-)
Brian
Personally I would, and did go with EBC. As stated though, the second generation pads are a different part number. They were redesigned to fix the issue of leaving deposits on the rotors that occurred with the Gen 1 pads. They don't have as much initial bite as the Gen 1 pads from what I hear. Brian can jump in and correct me if I am wrong.
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I put a photo of the way I do it in reply #13 in this thread.
Brian
My mistake. I misread that.
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I wish I'd have measured the rotors before trying to figure out the best way to prepare them. Both are at minimum thickness. New EBC rotors ordered.
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Thanks. I ordered two sets of the EBCs, but may replace only the right side based on this train of thought.
I don't think you read or understood my response (#5 in this thread) about mixing compounds on different sides.... might want to ponder this a bit more, and simply use both sets, keeping a common material on both rotors.... mmmkayyyy ::)
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I don't think you read or understood my response (#5 in this thread) about mixing compounds on different sides.... might want to ponder this a bit more, and simply use both sets, keeping a common material on both rotors.... mmmkayyyy ::)
That was based on post #9, for the most part. It's all moot now as the rotors were at minimum thickness. Replacements have been ordered. I'll throw fresh everything on there now.
Browsing around a bit, I see that a fair number of folks have had problems with the OEM rotors on the 2010s. Kind of ridiculous to have shot rotors at 15K miles. Especially when Kaw thinks theirs are worth close to $500 each.
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Just a thought but I would not worry too much about 'minimum thickness' for a couple of reasons: 1) the wear limit is only 0.020" (twenty thousandths of an inch), far too little IMO and 2) the range is 4.5 to 5.5 mm IIRC but brand new rotors are 5.0 mm. That basically means that 1/2 of the available wear was never supplied with the new rotors.
As far as problems with rotors, yep, the C-14 has had more than its fair share of warped rotors. I believe Kawi finally fixed it with the late model rotors but I only say that because the number of reported warped rotors has fallen way off, and that is NOT data, merely an observance. But certainly the first 3 or 4, and maybe 5 years of this bike's production had a [too high] number of rotor problems.
Brian
That was based on post #9, for the most part. It's all moot now as the rotors were at minimum thickness. Replacements have been ordered. I'll throw fresh everything on there now.
Browsing around a bit, I see that a fair number of folks have had problems with the OEM rotors on the 2010s. Kind of ridiculous to have shot rotors at 15K miles. Especially when Kaw thinks theirs are worth close to $500 each.
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Just a thought but I would not worry too much about 'minimum thickness' for a couple of reasons: 1) the wear limit is only 0.020" (twenty thousandths of an inch), far too little IMO and 2) the range is 4.5 to 5.5 mm IIRC but brand new rotors are 5.0 mm. That basically means that 1/2 of the available wear was never supplied with the new rotors.
As far as problems with rotors, yep, the C-14 has had more than its fair share of warped rotors. I believe Kawi finally fixed it with the late model rotors but I only say that because the number of reported warped rotors has fallen way off, and that is NOT data, merely an observance. But certainly the first 3 or 4, and maybe 5 years of this bike's production had a [too high] number of rotor problems.
Brian
They're slightly grooved. Not enough so that I'd worry about it if that were the only strike against them, but also being at 4.5mm coupled with the fact that I have gotten a pulse (not constant, so I wasn't thinking warpage) and the reports of failed rotors led me to just bite the bullet. I don't have any way to measure runout accurately here at home. It's a heavy bike and ridden two up better than half the time. I don't want to worry about it.
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I see people using the EBC pads. Anyone use the EBC organics? I am not an aggressive rider, I like brake feel and quiet operation.
Can the EBC organic front pads hold up to the weight of the C14 w/o fade?
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They're slightly grooved. Not enough so that I'd worry about it if that were the only strike against them, but also being at 4.5mm coupled with the fact that I have gotten a pulse (not constant, so I wasn't thinking warpage) and the reports of failed rotors led me to just bite the bullet. I don't have any way to measure runout accurately here at home. It's a heavy bike and ridden two up better than half the time. I don't want to worry about it.
You don't need special stuff to measure thickness, and if you mic the outer edge you will find the rotors are consistantly in the mid zone, even where the pads never rubbed, therefor, little wear occurrs mid rotor (compare mid to outer area). I like the feel of the EBC HH pads, but as I noted, they are substatially thinner than oem, and will not last as long... the noted issues some complain about of the hissing sound doesn't bother me, I don't hear it all the time, just on occaision. Still, they will only last about 20k.
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You don't need special stuff to measure thickness, and if you mic the outer edge you will find the rotors are consistantly in the mid zone, even where the pads never rubbed, therefor, little wear occurrs mid rotor (compare mid to outer area). I like the feel of the EBC HH pads, but as I noted, they are substatially thinner than oem, and will not last as long... the noted issues some complain about of the hissing sound doesn't bother me, I don't hear it all the time, just on occaision. Still, they will only last about 20k.
I'm good with 20K. I just got less than 15K out of my OEMs. ;D
I did not mic different areas, but will just to know at this point. New EBCs are on - rotors and pads and any hint of pulsation is completely gone. I suspect I'm going to find variations in the thickness of the old rotor(s).
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Bought my 08 from a dealer in March with 20K on it. They had replaced pads front and rear with OEM's. They stop the bike just fine and with even more feel than the crazy servo's on my 04 RT. I've used HH's on other bikes, and if they cause more sensitive brake qualities than OEM, think I will stay with stock, or EBC organics.
2500 miles on the new pads and no brake dust problems, either.... tp
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For what it is worth, I do not think there are any organic brake pads for the C-14, at least not front pads. All the pads available, at least from reputable manufacturers, are HH rated, sintered pads.
Brian
Bought my 08 from a dealer in March with 20K on it. They had replaced pads front and rear with OEM's. They stop the bike just fine and with even more feel than the crazy servo's on my 04 RT. I've used HH's on other bikes, and if they cause more sensitive brake qualities than OEM, think I will stay with stock, or EBC organics.
2500 miles on the new pads and no brake dust problems, either.... tp
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For what it is worth, I do not think there are any organic brake pads for the C-14, at least not front pads. All the pads available, at least from reputable manufacturers, are HH rated, sintered pads.
Brian
When I was searching for pads this past week, that's exactly what I found. I did find some non-HH pads for the rear, but don't recall the exact compound.
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Galfer "GG" organic make great rear pads. They were made for show bikes, so the rotor gets polished to a beautiful sheen..almost chrome like. The feel is great, though. No more on/off switch. They have a better "range" if that makes sense.
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I replaced the OEM brake pads, front and rear, with EBCs yesterday. I cleaned the rotors, pistons, and calipers really well. Took her for a ride and bedded in the new pads.
These pads are a bit nosier than the stockers but they stop the bike VERY nicely. :thumbs:
I had a bit of pulsation from the front brakes before the change and that's now gone. The rear pads were wore down to the wear indicators but the fronts were not, except for the outboard left side pads. These pads were WAY past the wear indicators and almost down to the metal of the backing plate. What's up with that? Everything seems to be moving and working ok so I don't understand the uneven wear.
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Caliper pistons sticking? Slide pins not smooth? I replaced my pins when I did my brakes about a month ago. My Rav4 had worn the drivers side rear pads down to the backing plate. The slide pins were atrociously rusted. Piston seemed to go in and out ok so I'm thinking it was the pins.
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Caliper pistons sticking? Slide pins not smooth? I replaced my pins when I did my brakes about a month ago. My Rav4 had worn the drivers side rear pads down to the backing plate. The slide pins were atrociously rusted. Piston seemed to go in and out ok so I'm thinking it was the pins.
The pins were a bit crappy but I cleaned and polished them up. Had I known there were in such a state I would have replaced them too. Maybe I'll go ahead and get some new pins and install them. Where did you get yours?
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From the pin store.
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You sure?...cause neither of these places had one.....
www.discountpinstore.com (http://www.discountpinstore.com)
www.thepintrader.com (http://www.thepintrader.com)
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Ron Ayers... :)
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From the pin store.
;D
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From the pin store.
That must be where you got your head? How did you get that helmet to fit so well?
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Ron Ayers... :)
Gotta part number handy? :)
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That must be where you got your head? How did you get that helmet to fit so well?
:rotflmao:
Gotta part number handy? :)
92043-0105
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:rotflmao:
92043-0105
Thankee! :)
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Guys, remember the first disc brake quipped bikes? I remember my 1979 xs 11 yamaha. Pretty good brakes, for the time, but in the rain they had zero brakign ability. It took 100 yards before the pads would bite.
What was the issue, back then? I noticed it crossing Wyoming. HORRIBEL rain, in late july. Ice cold. I was at 80mph and hit the brakes...I stayed at 80 for a long time, then they bit.
Was this organic pads, or what was the issue? I'd hate to select a pad that did this for someone.
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I had a 78 Suzuki GS550, and my bud had a GS750. They both worked pretty well in all conditions, as I remember. After coming off all drum bikes before that, they were wonderful. Compared to my RT and C14, they were not all that great, but for the time, I trusted the stopping power of the Suzukis...tomp
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That Yamaha xs11. Mine was a 79. I left home in a downpour, and it never let up. Somewhere past evanston, wyo I hit the brakes. It was 1/4 mile before anything happened.
Galfer HH brake pads are really nice in th ec14. They dont have the initial power we have stock, but are very progressive and linear. Maybe nicer to use on a daily basis??