New Horns--finally

[Son of Pappy]

Feel free to disagree.  Horns DO NOT SAVE lives.  Reaction used to activate the horn is wasted time.  Now, if it is used to make a point after avoiding a collision because you were properly prepared?  Well, that is road rage and %99+ vehicles sharing the road are bigger than you.  Spend the $$ on some advanced rider training to sharpen your riding and as always, work on finding issues before they become an issue.  A horn is a noise maker and it may have the exact opposite reaction you expected, they will instinctively turn to see what is making the noise, right into you.

Minor pet peeve of mine that fits right in there with the loud pipes save lives crowd.

[Canada-Dan]

SOP, I agree with one point and disagree with another.
I agree that in situations of emergency decision making, using the horn is a waste of attention. 
However, I use the horn as an attention getter much in the same way as day time running lights make a vehicle more conspicuous. Approaching an intersection when you see a motorist that doesn't see you, a few quick toots on the horn can save you from that emergency situation ever happening.

When motorists look left, right, left and still pull out in front of a motorcycle it's actually because their brain is looking for a car. When they look at a motorcycle their brain doesn't register it.
I can't tell you how many motor vehicle collisions I've investigated where the driver of the car says to me "I looked !! He came out of no where" and the motorcycle rider will say "I saw him/her look right at me and they pulled out in front of me anyway"

I watched a documentary about illusionists/magicians. They talked about how they brain is fooled during their shows when it wants to see one thing but actually sees something different and it just doesn't register.  They used the example of drivers looking both ways for cars coming and looking right at approaching motorcycles but the brain doesn't register what it sees because the driver was thinking about looking for cars.

A few horn toots and maybe a flicker between high and low beam headlights can snap that driver into his senses and cause him to actually "see" what he's looking at.

Dan

[Boomer]

I evade first then honk!

I also use the horn (short beep) to advise dozy car drivers that a motorcycle is lane sharing and about to pass them, but only for those I feel are asleep or on the phone.

An extended honk means
"You ****ing incompetent ****wit! Where did you get your drivers permit? From a packet of cereal? Get your head out of your ass and pay attention. Believe it or not there are other people out here in the real world! You are living proof that the human gene pool needs Chlorine." or at least that is what I am shout at them whilst honking. 

[maxtog]

  Well, that is road rage and %99+ vehicles sharing the road are bigger than you. 

The sad fact is that honking them AFTER something has happened is valid because most people don't even realize when they did something wrong.  One has to hope that they will learn something from the experience if they are made aware of the fact that they could have easily killed someone else.  WAKE UP, PUT DOWN THE PHONE, TURN YOUR HEAD, USE YOUR MIRRORS, PAY ATTENTION!!!

[Conrad]

Feel free to disagree.  Horns DO NOT SAVE lives.  Reaction used to activate the horn is wasted time.  Now, if it is used to make a point after avoiding a collision because you were properly prepared?  Well, that is road rage and %99+ vehicles sharing the road are bigger than you.  Spend the $$ on some advanced rider training to sharpen your riding and as always, work on finding issues before they become an issue.  A horn is a noise maker and it may have the exact opposite reaction you expected, they will instinctively turn to see what is making the noise, right into you.

Minor pet peeve of mine that fits right in there with the loud pipes save lives crowd.

Have you guys ever noticed that every time we have a discussion like this it's always the same thing?

One guy says that he wants to install a louder horn for safety. Then another guy says that you shouldn't rely on your horn to make you safe, use your riding skills for that (as if you can't do both)

It's the same thing with ABS (or hiviz clothing or using hibeams during the day or this or that...). Oh, bikes have gone for years without ABS and you shouldn't rely on ABS to make you safe, that's what your riding skills are for (again, as if you can't do both right?)   

[gPink]

Contrarian
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A contrarian is a person who takes up a contrary position, especially a position that is opposed to that of the majority, regardless of how unpopular it may be. Contrarian styles of argument and disagreement have historically been associated with radicalism and dissent.

[VirginiaJim]

Have you guys ever noticed that every time we have a discussion like this it's always the same thing?

One guy says that he wants to install a louder horn for safety. Then another guy says that you shouldn't rely on your horn to make you safe, use your riding skills for that (as if you can't do both)

It's the same thing with ABS (or hiviz clothing or using hibeams during the day or this or that...). Oh, bikes have gone for years without ABS and you shouldn't rely on ABS to make you safe, that's what your riding skills are for (again, as if you can't do both right?)   

Tis the forum nature....what are doing up so early?

[datsaxman@hotmail.com]

+1 for Chet.  The horns *ARE* useful, but not always reliable.  Taking evasive action IS.

Canada Dan, it is more subtle than the difference between expectation and reality.

Once upon a time, a rider owned two nearly identical motorcycles.  Moto Guzzi 850 Eldorados.
One a civilian model painted in black with a Wixom Bros. fairing and white fiberglass saddlebags...
the other one an ex-police bike with white tank, HD windshield, black metal bags.

I had the civilian for about a year before I got the PD bike.  Invisible on the civilian bike, I became
the object of people's attention on the cop bike.  I could slow traffic on the freeway by riding along at -5mph compared to the traffic.  OR I could cruise along quite briskly in the fast lane, and most folks would move over in plenty of time for me to zip right by without slowing.

THE SECRET:  Folks respond to FEAR.  The cop bike represents a THREAT, so it is visible.
Trucks are threats...cars, too.  Motorcycles?  Not so much.  So you are invisible.

THEY SEE THE COPS, so it is not a problem with expectations, but fear. 


saxman

P.S. Fiamm Freeway Blasters.  eBay.  Bent the brackets that came with them, so they fit side by side above the front fender.  Relay, heavy gauge wire, and they are not only pretty loud, but they sound...sort of elegant. 

Honking after the fact is worse than useless.  Go home and kick something if you want to blow off steam.  But sometimes honking as the problem develops lets then know you are there, and can be useful.  But reading the traffic well, and anticipating trouble, and having a way out (or two)
is going to work a whole lot better than getting into a bad situation and expecting to honk your
way out.   

I work as a referee at bicycle races...so the horn gets used A LOT.  Warning riders about vehicles coming by, clearing spectators on closed courses, warning riders about road hazards, scolding, etc. 
FIAMMs: Loud (but not deafening), a distinctive sound (the two notes together) so they know it's me, fits in the stock location (barely), etc.  Total cost about $20...had the wire already.  +++ +++

[RBX QB]

I usually ride with my thumb near the switch. Sometimes I'm able to honk while evading... the horns have worked at keeping cars off me a handful of times.

Other times, not so much (pure shorts-soiling evasion mode), and my turning away and braking has done the trick. At that point, the horn isn't worth the effort, because the errant driver probably would associate a motorcycle honking with being an a-hole motorcycle rider. We don't need any more cagers thinking that of us.

I agree with most of you... horns CAN help in safety, but should not be used as a primary defense. Keeping your eyes on a swivel can be MUCH more useful.

[Conrad]

Tis the forum nature....what are doing up so early?

I still get up at the same time every morn, 5am. Ever since I was in the Army I have this built-in alarm clock and the stupid thing has no snooze button.

[Son of Pappy]

Looks like my tactic worked   These are topics that really should be discussed in a very open manner, far to often we get caught up in farkledom and skip discussing the things that assist us in riding "Safer".  Bling is great, but riding home is better, something I think we can all agree on.

I used the hyper whites (reminds me, I need to order two more sets) as an attention getter, once on no additional action required, freeing me up to focus on riding and not searching for a button with a digit.  I would never advocate removing a horn, but I would not fear riding a bike without a horn.  I also ride with a high vis vest and always ride with at least a 2 second margin, yes, even in the stop and go traffic, I have as of yet to go backwards on a freeway and if someone really needs that space in front of me, it's theirs for the taking.
We could add in ABS, but that would be off topic   ( I am a believer in ABS, but do not fear riding without).

[tbanzer]

Feel free to disagree.  Horns DO NOT SAVE lives.  Reaction used to activate the horn is wasted time.  Now, if it is used to make a point after avoiding a collision because you were properly prepared?  Well, that is road rage and %99+ vehicles sharing the road are bigger than you.  Spend the $$ on some advanced rider training to sharpen your riding and as always, work on finding issues before they become an issue.  A horn is a noise maker and it may have the exact opposite reaction you expected, they will instinctively turn to see what is making the noise, right into you.

Minor pet peeve of mine that fits right in there with the loud pipes save lives crowd.

I think your dead wrong on this. I know for a fact that if I honk my horn at someone who is waiting to pull out in front of me from a side street or parking lot,they immediately turn their head towards me and we make eye contact more often than not. Properly prepared or not, alerting a potential driver from pulling out of you must be safer.

[Son of Pappy]

All of a sudden the driver who didn't see you is startled, mashes the gas pedal to the floor.  Time spent hitting the horn coulda been used to slow, or speed up, or swerve out of their path of travel.  While not the only potential scenario, it is a real possibility and as I ride always thinking what offers me the best chance of avoiding a crash?  Target fixation is real.  Can a horn aid in conspicuity?  Certainly, but not near as often as awareness and proper action.  We can not control their actions, only ours and a horn is relying on positive action from them.

[stevewfl]

if a driver can hear a horn over road noise , radio, and the cell phone call I'm amazed. not because the horn is loud or not because 99% of the time they aren't paying attention.

And like SOP said I can flick out of the way, speed up, stop, or slow down 99.9% of the time LONG before I can alert the driver and him/her stop texting and react with any real action on the alert. 

The horn was the first thing to go in the rubbish pile on my KTM, and the absolute most useless thing on any motorcycle I've ever owned.

If there were ever a need to be proactive, assertive and in control, it is while riding a motorcycle. Motorcyclists and scooter riders are arguably the most vulnerable motor vehicle operators on the road.

[/b]

SEE<----SEARCH, EVALUATE, and EXECUTE.   Thats what MSF advance course taught and we practiced over and over.  Horn was never mentioned.

[Daytona_Mike]

I  have 3 bikes. All 3 have air horns. Those horns  have saved me many many  times.  A few times with deer. Many times just to alert the cager(s) in the lane beside me that I am nearby or about to pass. Many other times to stop them from moving into my lane. I have yet to tap the horn button  and someone NOT hear my horns. I had a case where I was stopped in parking lot and  a cager did not see me and decided to backup. Only the horn stopped her. I had no other way to avoid her.  I could not and  will not  go with out a good set of horns on my bikes and my cars. In traffic my thumb is always covering that  horn button as well my hand covering the brake lever.  I can and have done both. I do not loose any ability to react just because I have a good set of horns. It is just another tool in my defensive arsenal.  Of course there has to be some common sense. In a down right emergency, trying to find the horn button will not help. That is not how it is supposed to be used.

[maxtog]

All of a sudden the driver who didn't see you is startled, mashes the gas pedal to the floor.

Although that is possible and has some face validity, I have never actually seen that happen.  In 100% of my observation, they either stop what they were doing (changing lanes, pulling out) or completely ignore the horn.  I would guess about a 20% or so ignore rate.

Time spent hitting the horn coulda been used to slow, or speed up, or swerve out of their path of travel. 

The horn should NEVER be used in a situation where that time would have been needed to "avoid".  But there are many, many times where it could be used in combination with avoidance or when you have plenty of time to avoid and would prefer they just do the right thing.

[maxtog]

if a driver can hear a horn over road noise , radio, and the cell phone call I'm amazed.

That is exactly why I have an air horn.  One of the very first things I installed.

Yet again- it should not be used in ANY situation where you would need every milisecond to avoid something.  But when I feel threatened, my finger is already covering the horn button and my hand is already covering the brake- both at the ready.

[Daytona_Mike]

I know for a fact horns save lives. I have done it and seen it
In many states  and in Canada  licensed tagged  vehicles will not pass inspection without a working horn.
They require it for safety reasons.
I really do not understand how anyone could think a horn does not save lives.
How many ships wrecked  and sailors died until fog horns were  invented?

[Son of Pappy]

So, loud pipes do save lives.. Factual to the HD crowd.  But anecdotal with no real facts to substantiate their beliefs.  Adding one more task to the complexity of taking an avoidance maneuver during a full on critical time may be the task that leads to an unfortunate incident.

Read the following, see if you catch it.  http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=948987


Quote:
Originally Posted by sandsman View Post
Having a piece of metal in my shin also......I feel your pain. One of the things I added to my bike which should be the #1 thing to add is one of those super loud air horns, they are compact and really do the trick on moving 4-wheelers back away from you. I ride in town with my thumb on the LOUD-ASS horn button. They clear away from me.

I had one of those years ago, living in San Diego. Sounded like Amtrak coming through!!
I never had time to hit the button this time...

[Conrad]

All of a sudden the driver who didn't see you is startled, mashes the gas pedal to the floor.  Time spent hitting the horn coulda been used to slow, or speed up, or swerve out of their path of travel.  While not the only potential scenario, it is a real possibility and as I ride always thinking what offers me the best chance of avoiding a crash?  Target fixation is real.  Can a horn aid in conspicuity?  Certainly, but not near as often as awareness and proper action.  We can not control their actions, only ours and a horn is relying on positive action from them.

WTF? Why oh why does everyone assume that you can't do both? I can be prepared for what others on the road may do by paying attention to what they are doing and leaving myself an out or three (it's like a game of chess). (here's the tricky part    ) AND I can also use my horn if needed. Sometimes all you need is a little attention drawn to yourself to keep bad things from happening. Sometimes that doesn't work and you have to do something else. Sometimes it's too late for the horn and you have to take immediate action. It's called situational awareness. If I see trouble coming I use what ever tool I have at my disposal to keep away from it. No need to take evasive maneuvers when all that is needed is the horn. AGAIN, if the horn doesn't work then I use another tool.

I can use my riding skills along with my horn to help keep me safe.