Removing the secondary flies-Question

[Rembrant]

Don't know if they're still in business. As far as the discussions go, everything is opinion unless there is science to back it up. If we can't kick people around for their opinion what good is the internet? 

Hahaha...Mr. Pink, you just made me snarf coffee out my nose...lol. Thanks for that;).

Rem!

[spinned]

My bike has a two brothers slip on and a PC5.  I had it dyno tuned by one of the west coast's premiere racing techs and I was ..."like take the flies out... it is all over the internet".

He left them in.

Said I didn't need them out.  The dyno also stopped what I think some of you call the fueling issue.  For me I would let off on the throttle and the bike would lurch back or "pogo" and then lurch back on when I added throttle.  This was problematic especially in the corners when this action would change the weight distribution of the bike.

With the dyno tune and PC5 the throttle is now silky smooth and powerful at any rpm

[maxtog]

The stuff I have read is all with the Guhl ECU reflash. I really should stay out of these discussions, because everybody has their own opinions, and if you try to suggest otherwise, all you get is "Well, that is impossible"...lol.

I don't know if you were specifically addressing what I said, but if you were:

1) I didn't say it WAS impossible, I said "I really don't see how that is possible" and qualified it with my model and which flash.  Huge difference.  Someone is welcome to speculate as to how it COULD be possible, and I did leave that open.  For example, maybe the person never goes over 3K RPM, or never uses more than 1/4 throttle (and in which case, why are they spending so much money to reflash the ECU???), or had some OTHER flash that was not Guhl, or has something else terribly wrong with their bike, or somehow ended up reinstalling an ECU that was never flashed or incorrectly flashed.

2) This is not really an "opinion" I stated.  It is more "fact" (or as least a data point) that there is a huge difference on my bike.  No different than hearing a noise at a certain RPM, or what gas mileage I get, or what top speed might be.  I am not quantifiably relaying it nor is it scientifically verified, but it is not really just an opinion.  An opinion would be more like "I think this is the best thing ever" or "silver is the nicest color" or "the sound of this muffler is great".

3) There is absolutely nothing wrong with presenting contrary information, that is the whole point of good discussions.  I welcome them.  Doesn't offend me in the least.

4) I wasn't calling you a liar or disbelieving you are relaying information that you saw previously.  Although I might be questioning the VALIDITY of that information based on personal experience, many other postings to the contrary, and just plain logic about what the flash does.

[Rembrant]

I don't know if you were specifically addressing what I said, but if you were:

1) I didn't say it WAS impossible, I said "I really don't see how that is possible" and qualified it with my model and which flash.  Huge difference.  Someone is welcome to speculate as to how it COULD be possible, and I did leave that open.  For example, maybe the person never goes over 3K RPM, or never uses more than 1/4 throttle (and in which case, why are they spending so much money to reflash the ECU???), or had some OTHER flash that was not Guhl, or has something else terribly wrong with their bike, or somehow ended up reinstalling an ECU that was never flashed or incorrectly flashed.

2) This is not really an "opinion" I stated.  It is more "fact" (or as least a data point) that there is a huge difference on my bike.  No different than hearing a noise at a certain RPM, or what gas mileage I get, or what top speed might be.  I am not quantifiably relaying it nor is it scientifically verified, but it is not really just an opinion.  An opinion would be more like "I think this is the best thing ever" or "silver is the nicest color" or "the sound of this muffler is great".

3) There is absolutely nothing wrong with presenting contrary information, that is the whole point of good discussions.  I welcome them.  Doesn't offend me in the least.

4) I wasn't calling you a liar or disbelieving you are relaying information that you saw previously.  Although I might be questioning the VALIDITY of that information based on personal experience, many other postings to the contrary, and just plain logic about what the flash does.

Mr. Maxtog,

Relax man...I wasn't directing anything at you personally...lol. Geeez.

You have clearly stated that your opinion is not really an opinion, but more of a fact, so I'm not going to challenge you on that. I'll leave it be. It sounds like you've done lots of internet research to back your opinions, so I won't confuse the matter with further ideas or actual logic. I really don't think there's a benefit in doing so.

Carry on.

Cheers,
Rem

[maxtog]

Relax man...I wasn't directing anything at you personally...lol. Geeez.

You have clearly stated that your opinion is not really an opinion, but more of a fact, so I'm not going to challenge you on that. I'll leave it be. It sounds like you've done lots of internet research to back your opinions, so I won't confuse the matter with further ideas or actual logic. I really don't think there's a benefit in doing so.

Are you trying to be cute or something by further insulting and patronizing me and hiding behind smiley faces and "lol"?  Or do you just think I am stupid?  I really don't appreciate it.

[Rembrant]

Are you trying to be cute or something by further insulting me and hiding behind smiley faces?  Or do you just think I am stupid?  I really don't appreciate it.

Are you for real?

Seriously...relax. I'm not trying to insult you or be cute or anything else. You made your point, and I said I was going to stay out of it. Geez.

I put a smiley face after my name 99% of the time....and I always have. The other 1% of the time it isn't there is simply because I forgot to do it. It has absolutely nothing to do with you or anybody else.

Cheers,
Rem

[VirginiaJim]

You know guys, (and this is to no one in particular) I haven't locked a thread in ages.  I would prefer not to so let's all mellow out and think nice thoughts...    Yet another thread for the crash test dummies....sigh.

[PlaynInPeoria]

I wear my tires out to the edges and my bike sees redline frequently.  I recently had someone say "Jesus!" when I left them in a corner.  I'm not V Rossi, but I don't suck either.

I love my Guhl reflash. To me, there is a world of difference when I whack the throttle open at low rpm, it just LEAPS forward.  Low rpm becomes high rpm become redline very quickly.   I like it a lot, really transformed the bike.  It felt so gutless at 2500 rpm before, now it pulls hard off the corner. 

To me, it was a no brainer.  Spend a lot of time yanking the flies and spend a lot of money and time on a PCIII or spend nearly the same amount and  get very close to the same performance.  To each, their own but I am very happy with the result.  I have a friend that swears by his 'flies pulled, slip on and O2 sensor installed' bike.  He loves projects.  Myself, I like to RIDE.  We're both happy.  I am gonna go do a roll on with him soon and see how it goes.  Last time he tried a roll on with me, his ZRex 1200 lost badly to my FZ1, I'm hoping to make it 2 for 2!

I'll do a project if I think it's worth it.  I yanked my linked brakes and gave up rear ABS but to me, it totally transformed the bike from a sporting standpoint.  It's my bike and my money and time and I do what I think will make me happier.  So far so good. If you do something totally different and it makes you happy too, well there ya go, good for you.   

[VirginiaJim]

What's your setup such as air filter and exhaust? 

[PlaynInPeoria]

Dirty and heavy.

Bone stock.  I would like it lighter, but I don't really want louder. When I get on it, I don't want every cop in miles looking in my direction and I don't really want to annoy the general public.   When I'm alongside and twist its tail, I just want to disappear QUIETLY.  Man, I love this bike.

Plus, I don't want to spend any more money, I have 5 vacations this year that I can barely afford as is. 

[VirginiaJim]

That's really good to know.  Thanks.

[jddetroit]

So...did anyone think to answer the original post?
Can he take his flies out without adding a PC?

[VirginiaJim]

In reviewing this thread it looks like you can.  Some think more gain to be had by an add on Power Commander.  Some think that just doing a Guhl reflash is all that's needed without removing the flies.  Up to you.

[B.D.F.]

No one knows. It can be done but it is not known what the long- term results would be- the bike may run lean at some throttle openings. The usual method is to pull the 'flies and add a Power Commander with a 'flies out' map. But that still does not answer the original question.

Some people have simply removed them without doing anything else to the bike and reported good results. But again, we do not have any long term (say more than 20K miles) reports about any of those bikes that I am aware of. ??

Brian

So...did anyone think to answer the original post?
Can he take his flies out without adding a PC?

[Rembrant]

In reviewing this thread it looks like you can.  Some think more gain to be had by an add on Power Commander.  Some think that just doing a Guhl reflash is all that's needed without removing the flies.  Up to you.

I'm sure I've read about several different C14 owners that have removed the flies and nothing else....but that's all I know.
I've not done it myself without fuel changes, so I don't have much for real-world advice.
I think BDF mentioned the other day...that yes, people have certainly done it, but what we don't have is any long term results.

I'll check it and confirm shortly if anybody is interested. I'll just check the A/F ratio between stock STP mapping, and with STP's open very early. I'm guessing that there will be very little difference, if any at all.

Power Commanders add power from 2500 RPM-up, with significant gains in the higher range, from 4000 RPM to redline. The ECU reflash is aimed more at the low end, with nice gains in Torque between 2000-4000 RPM, where most sport-touring guys spend the majority of their time.

[B.D.F.]

And the combination of removing the secondaries (the 'flies) and adding a PC adds the most power possible at all RPM ranges. 

Brian

<snip>

Power Commanders add power from 2500 RPM-up, with significant gains in the higher range, from 4000 RPM to redline. The ECU reflash is aimed more at the low end, with nice gains in Torque between 2000-4000 RPM, where most sport-touring guys spend the majority of their time.

[Rembrant]

And the combination of removing the secondaries (the 'flies) and adding a PC adds the most power possible at all RPM ranges. 

Brian

Yessir, you're right. This is why I usually don't agree with comparing ECU flashes with Power Commanders....they really are two different options, with completely different results. I know everybody will say which one is 'better', but I think what's actually better depends on each individual C14 owner and their goals. The opinions will always vary of course;).

There's a lot of info for potential buyers to read and sift through....but hey, that's why research is so fun;).

Cheers,
Rem

[B.D.F.]

A lot of people just want 'the answer' and there isn't one. It is a matter of choices, and everyone has to make his / her own because only that person knows what he / she might be able or willing to do. If doing mechanical work on the bike is not desirable or possible, then that leaves an ECU re-flash as the only real option (even installing a PC takes removal of a lot of bodywork).

My choice was, and still is, easy: I want the whole 1,400 cc bike I bought, all the time, and I want it to run correctly all the time, at all RPM's. So the 'flies had to go and a Power Commander had to be installed. I would do the same thing with a new C-14 if or when that occurs.

The only thing I outright disagree with was the idea that leaving the 'flies in was actually <better> than outright removing them but that was an ugly rumor started by.... guess who? :-)   A simple ECU re-flash is certainly the easiest way to change the characteristics of the bike but it is not the performance equal to outright 'flies removal.

Brian

Yessir, you're right. This is why I usually don't agree with comparing ECU flashes with Power Commanders....they really are two different options, with completely different results. I know everybody will say which one is 'better', but I think what's actually better depends on each individual C14 owner and their goals. The opinions will always vary of course;).

There's a lot of info for potential buyers to read and sift through....but hey, that's why research is so fun;).

Cheers,
Rem

[Son of Pappy]

So...did anyone think to answer the original post?
Can he take his flies out without adding a PC?

Uh, Posts # 2 and 7 did.

[texrider]

Just flies out seems to make the bike feel normal, or what you would expect. Gets rid of the bogging feeling. If it were lean you'd know it right away when you backed off the throttle at any given point, because it would surge.