A&R Motorsports HID kit input

[connie and me]

I know what you mean about "expensive HID car projectors" I think the BI-Xenon in my G35x is some top shelf auto lighting, ( and i don't even have the tech pkge that turns the lamps 15* or so)  So i would want my bike to be like that also, but i like the way your going about this,, ie, aiming as you go alittle at a time on the road, not against a wall....

[cablebandit]

Well the car units are designed as an HID from the get go.  Stuffing an HID bulb into a housing designed around a halogen bulb is a huge compromise. 

[just gone]

They are a lot more distracting than the halogens because they are "bouncier".  I think there are two causes for this:  One, there is a lot more mass than just bulbs in the housing now, but more importantly, there is a BOTTOM cutoff that is much more pronounced than with the halogens.  So the areas near the bike have much less light that further down the road.  All the vibration and bouncing of the bike is clearly relayed back to the rider from the bottom cutoff and it is going to take some getting used to.

I noticed that the bulbs are very loose in the ....(searching for term to use here)...actuator(?) ..that is the socket that the bulb slides back and forth in between low beam and high beam usage. I can hold the socket and make the bulb flop around just by moving the socket up and down. The movement is marginally lessened in the high beam position. It seems to me that this must add to the "bouncier" effect. I'm not sure how large the focal sweet spot is in the reflector, but I would think that the bulb movement must change the light pattern as well.

[maxtog]

I noticed that the bulbs are very loose in the ....(searching for term to use here)...actuator(?) ..that is the socket that the bulb slides back and forth in between low beam and high beam usage. I can hold the socket and make the bulb flop around just by moving the socket up and down. The movement is marginally lessened in the high beam position. It seems to me that this must add to the "bouncier" effect.

That is a very good observation and could account for the bounce, or at least part of it.  One has to also wonder if that is good for the health of the bulb.

[C1xRider]

Yep, you guys are a really bad influence. 

Ordered a set for mine this morning.   

[ZG]

Yep, you guys are a really bad influence. 

Ordered a set for mine this morning.   

We try Rob... 
 
Congrats! 

[h2smokin]

Have not installed mine yet but they sure do ship fast. Had mine in 2 days. Look forward to try and install in a couple of weeks

[C1xRider]

We try Rob... 
 
Congrats! 

Thanks, I really need to beef up my low beams.  With the additional 12,400 lumens of driving lights, the low beam looks like I'm pointing a weak flashlight out there.  The additional 6,200 lumens of high beams won't bother me either. 

[B.D.F.]

I am a little surprised that you seem under whelmed by the light output of those HIDs. By anyone's reckoning, they put out at least three times the light of any tungsten H4, at least the low beam, and twice what the H4 high beam puts out.

I think what you are seeing in the movement of the light pattern is just because the light is brighter- motorcycles always produce a 'flickering' headlight cut off but now that the light / dark ratio is so much higher using HID it is much more noticeable. The same thing is true for projector lights- because the cut off line is so much sharper than reflectors, the light is seen as being much more active when projectors are used instead of reflectors. That is the reason that most projector lenses are either Fresnel or very slightly frosted- to scatter some of that light and make the entire effect a bit softer. If the cut off line is quite sharp, as it is from projectors running true clear lenses, and the person looking at an oncoming vehicle is near that cut- off line, it appears that those headlights are flickering on and off very rapidly- the effect is called dazzle because of its sharpness. It is one of the big complaints about HID projectors, especially from older folks who have deteriorated lenses and retinas (and weight control, the ability to grow hair, think clearly.... I could go on and on) from years of sunlight exposure and just simple aging.

The beam from a C-14 headlight bucket retrofitted with HIDs is considerably wider but shorter (top to bottom) as compared with the original H4 lamp. I actually prefer the light on low beam, and high beam using HID works very well too until the bike is leaned over- then the beam does not have enough height to it. It isn't disastrous or anything, just a little less than desirable IMO. Still, an HID retrofit is a very positive thing overall I think and still pretty responsible for oncoming traffic provided the headlight lens is kept clean.

Brian

OK, now I have a nighttime ride, and had to go a good ways to get to an area with no street lights and no cars so I could make some real observations.

Yes, they are brighter, no doubt now.  And the 4300 color is excellent, seems the same as on my Infiniti.  I immediately noticed the top cutoff is lower than on the halogens and had to stop several times and aim them up higher.

They are a lot more distracting than the halogens because they are "bouncier".  I think there are two causes for this:  One, there is a lot more mass than just bulbs in the housing now, but more importantly, there is a BOTTOM cutoff that is much more pronounced than with the halogens.  So the areas near the bike have much less light that further down the road.  All the vibration and bouncing of the bike is clearly relayed back to the rider from the bottom cutoff and it is going to take some getting used to.  Also, there are a few horizontal darker stripes in the beam.   The overall pattern is not great, worse than the halogens, MUCH worse than the Infiniti projectors.  I agree that there is more scatter with the A&R HID than the stock halogens, too.  The scatter is not awful, though.

I was worried the high beams would not be as effective, since [unlike the halogens on high beams] they are only using half the reflector.  I think those fears are unnecessary.

It is going to take me more time to aim them properly.  I am always afraid of blinding people, so I will have to go do some additional tests and adjustments later.   I did the best I could while actually riding to try and make sure the low beams would not hit mirrors of other cars.  After those adjustments (mostly raising them), when I got off the bike (side stand) and walked 100 feet away, the low beams seemed to be below my knees, which seemed surprisingly low.

Overall, it is an improvement over halogen.  Once I get a few more trips at night and finish adjusting, I will know how much of an improvement.  I am spoiled by expensive-car HID projectors and might have had my initial expectations a bit too high.  I have no experience with "HID kits", so I don't know what is typical.

[B.D.F.]

Yep, the aftermarket HID product is lacking a bit of precision and quality control. A standard headlight lamp is something that is usually made to extremely high tolerances to place the filament in exactly the right position over and over again so any bulb that fits a given housing will work properly. HID capsules (or burners) are made to exacting standards too to place the arc in a very exacting position for the very same reason. The aftermarket HIDs are quite poor by comparison and the 'bi- xenons' where the glass envelope moves is just terrible. Still they manage to work reasonably well which is almost amazing I think.

I don't know if the bulb in the aftermarket is really moving though in normal riding- I think the greater visual impact is mostly due to the much greater light and sharper cut off line between light and dark.

As bad as you think those sliding HIDs are, your opinion of them will go down if you take one apart. Remember back in 3rd grade when that teacher showed you how to make a magnet using a nail, a few turns of wire and a battery? That demonstration shows great quality compared to the innards of the Chinese HIDs that I have seen :-(

Brian

I noticed that the bulbs are very loose in the ....(searching for term to use here)...actuator(?) ..that is the socket that the bulb slides back and forth in between low beam and high beam usage. I can hold the socket and make the bulb flop around just by moving the socket up and down. The movement is marginally lessened in the high beam position. It seems to me that this must add to the "bouncier" effect. I'm not sure how large the focal sweet spot is in the reflector, but I would think that the bulb movement must change the light pattern as well.

[chi-gpz1100]

Brian, so you saying these hid bulbs use rusty nails for terminals inside???

[B.D.F.]

Nope, I am saying they do not have anything inside that is as good as rusty nails....

 

They are not really all that bad, just crude by modern standards- they look like they were hand wound (and given the labor costs there perhaps they are?). That, coupled with the lack of quality control, makes the product less than confidence inspiring. Still, they do seem to work and they do seem to work better than they did just a few years ago.

OFFTOPIC: I am not picking on products made in China here, just pointing out that they generally do not have the quality one would expect from modern production. They also have a very low cost, something else not found in most modern production. And China has come a tremendous way in a very short time- while the west invented the industrial revolution and has been collectively whittlin' on technological products for centuries, China was a relatively poor and almost technology free country up until very recently (1970's); their rate of improvement and learning is fantastic. At their current rate of improvement and growth, they could 'own' the entire planet's economy; I am still hopeful that the west can create a middle class in China and stop that horrible financial imbalance before they can stop manufacturing everywhere else in the world. Hey, it worked everywhere else the first world used the third world as a cheap labor source, right? When I was a kid, anything made in Japan was cheap junk only available because it was so inexpensive.

Brian

Brian, so you saying these hid bulbs use rusty nails for terminals inside???

[maxtog]

I am a little surprised that you seem under whelmed by the light output of those HIDs. By anyone's reckoning, they put out at least three times the light of any tungsten H4, at least the low beam, and twice what the H4 high beam puts out.

Oh, they are brighter, no doubt.  My main disappointment is with the pattern being kinda sucky.  The light distribution is not as good as the H4 beams, and far worse than projector lenses.  And the problem with lumens ratings is that is the ratings are for the bare bulbs.  I don't doubt HID *BULBS* put out three times the light of an H4.  However, I guarantee you that three times the total lumens is not hitting the road.  A lot of the light is being intentionally blocked and not effectively reflected, due to the large outer shroud and little inner shroud.  And parts of it is being scattered away.

I think what you are seeing in the movement of the light pattern is just because the light is brighter-[...]

I think that is part of it, yes.  But I think the more pronounced lower cutoff and the bulbs jiggling a bit are part of it too.

The beam from a C-14 headlight bucket retrofitted with HIDs is considerably wider but shorter (top to bottom) as compared with the original H4 lamp. I actually prefer the light on low beam, and high beam using HID works very well too until the bike is leaned over- then the beam does not have enough height to it. It isn't disastrous or anything, just a little less than desirable IMO. Still, an HID retrofit is a very positive thing overall I think and still pretty responsible for oncoming traffic provided the headlight lens is kept clean.

Yes, the beam is not as tall, nor does it reach back to the bike either due to the higher low cutoff.  And about keeping the lenses clean- OMG yes, I ALWAYS do.  Dirty lenses will scatter light horribly and many Americans don't seem to give a damn.  In Europe, cars are required to have automatic headlight cover/lens cleaners for that exact reason.  It also doesn't help when people let their plastic lenses fuzz out/white out/UV degrade.  They should fail inspection, but inspections in most areas are just a total joke.

[maxtog]

The aftermarket HIDs are quite poor by comparison and the 'bi- xenons' where the glass envelope moves is just terrible. Still they manage to work reasonably well which is almost amazing I think.

The A&R are bi-xenons and the bulb does move.  And due to this, there is some jiggle, especially on low-beam when the bike is moving.  But if it were not bi-xenon, I would not have bought it, because I want the same HID lighting on both high and low beams.  I don't want halogen on one and HID lighting on the other (blech).  I think in my Infiniti G37 projectors, something OTHER than the bulb moves when switching from low to high beam, but I am not completely sure on that.  But there is ZERO jiggle.

I don't know if the bulb in the aftermarket is really moving though in normal riding- I think the greater visual impact is mostly due to the much greater light and sharper cut off line between light and dark.

Like I said before, I think both are factors.

[B.D.F.]

Projector bi-xenon lights are absolutely nothing like these 'fakey' bi- xenon H4 replacements that we are using in the C-14 (or any H4 vehicle just by changing the bulbs over to HIDs). The projectors are a class act... so nice that someone should put a set in a C-14 IMO (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10405.0 ). I will update that thread in a few minutes.

Just as an aside, the way projector bixenons work is that there is a shield right at the focal line between the reflector bowl and the front lens; that is what creates the cut- off line in the light pattern. Actually all projectors have a shield, it is just that low beam only projectors have a fixed shield and the lamp is used exclusively for low beams with the high beams being an additional lamp assembly and bulb. In projector bixenons that shield actually moves vertically- actually it moves down to cast more light 'up' for high beam use (the lens makes everything work backwards). The HID 'kits' that replace two beam tungsten bulbs are actually pretty clever in that they move the lamp but they cannot produce the same quality of light pattern, cut off, or maintain light quality between low and high beam use the bixenon projectors have. By the way, the low beam of a bixenon projector remains absolutely the same when the high beams are used- it is like pulling back a curtain to allow more light to project onto new areas but the original beam is not changed in any way. That is one of the failings of the H4 kits- the low beam output is replaced by the high beam output.

What some folks do is to use a low beam H4 on one side and a bi-xenon H4 on the other side of the same motorcycle- that way you always have one light dedicated to low beam use and still have a high beam. It is easy to simulate that on your setup just by removing the solenoid connector (the small one with the two wires going through it) on whichever side you want only the low beam. I tried it and it does have its benefits- give it a try and you might like it better.

By the way, only high performance headlights are required to have lamp washers (as well as an automatic leveling system) on cars in Europe- there are plenty of dirty, misaligned lights in Europe too although I think on average they are in better physical condition than the average in the US. They also tend to aim the lights at the ground in consideration of oncoming traffic; I think they are often too high in the US but in Germany the top of the low beam is about 50 feet (ahem... about 15 meters) in front of the car.

Brian

The A&R are bi-xenons and the bulb does move.  And due to this, there is some jiggle, especially on low-beam when the bike is moving.  But if it were not bi-xenon, I would not have bought it, because I want the same HID lighting on both high and low beams.  I don't want halogen on one and HID lighting on the other (blech).  I think in my Infiniti G37 projectors, something OTHER than the bulb moves when switching from low to high beam, but I am not completely sure on that.  But there is ZERO jiggle.

[Jeremy Mitchell]

That is weird, my Bi-Xenon high beams jiggle and my low beams are rock steady.

[C1xRider]

If anyone has a copy of the installation instructions handy, could they PM them to me?  I would like to get an idea of how much time I need to budget for this task.

I find it puzzling why they don't just have them posted on their website.

[Caffeinated]

If anyone has a copy of the installation instructions handy, could they PM them to me?  I would like to get an idea of how much time I need to budget for this task.

I find it puzzling why they don't just have them posted on their website.

PM sent.

They are posted on their site.... http://www.aandrmotorsport.com/directions/concourshidinstructions.html

[C1xRider]

PM sent.

They are posted on their site.... http://www.aandrmotorsport.com/directions/concourshidinstructions.html

Excellent, thanks!  I looked back over this thread before posting the request, but didn't see the link (though I thought I had earlier).

Looks like a bit much to try and tackle before ZG and Gumby get here in the morning for our ride tomorrow.  That's if the kit even arrives today.  Maybe a task for Sunday?

[maxtog]

Looks like a bit much to try and tackle before ZG and Gumby get here in the morning for our ride tomorrow.  That's if the kit even arrives today.  Maybe a task for Sunday?

If you have to remove Canyons, and are not used to taking those and the fairings apart, it will take several hours.  Of course, now that I know exactly how everything installs and works, I could probably repeat the whole process in two hours, but that would be Captain Hindsight!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Hindsight