Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: wildnphx on July 16, 2011, 07:49:52 PM
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So I go riding with a sport group and the topic came up today about getting pulled over by the police... Is it best to let the guy in the rear of the group pull over by himself and "take one for the team" or are you better off if the whole group pulls over?
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You should set this up as a poll Phoenix, interesting topic....
I would say it depends on the group I'm riding with.
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I'd say it depends on where you are in the group :) In all seriousness, I'd just call and ask a LEO. I'd assume it depends on whom the officer is/ what the charges are. If it was me I'd rather pull over than be seen on the 11 o clock news with 11 state troopers after me waiting for me to run out of gas........
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This is a tough call. And the reason for the stop is also a question. I called my SIL, a Sherrif, and a riding buddy also a Sheriff.
Both said the same thing, the number of riders would determine if it was even worth stopping the group.
My buddy is an on the road officer, and he has had a few instances that he was so far away from base, and assistance, he just followed and all slowed down. Another instance was a group of HD riders not going to fast, but to slow for the State Rt.
That group was 30 + strong. In that case he ran his lights alongside, motioning for the group to speed up.
This is a very good question, it will be interesting to see how this one pans out.
Ride safe all.
Greg
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... Is it best to let the guy in the rear of the group pull over by himself and "take one for the team" or are you better off if the whole group pulls over?
Having been there... Everyone pull over at once, do a Chinese fire drill, run around the bikes, everyone pull license and registration, hand them all to the officer, speak in a different language (French is good). Helps if everyone is dressed in the same gear too ;)
FWIW, we were all tagged for doing 45 in a 45.
Rick
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Having been there... Everyone pull over at once, do a Chinese fire drill, run around the bikes, everyone pull license and registration, hand them all to the officer, speak in a different language (French is good). Helps if everyone is dressed in the same gear too ;)
FWIW, we were all tagged for doing 45 in a 45.
Rick
:rotflmao: :thumbs:
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Me and a buddy had this happen to us (group of 2), where a WSP officer was coming towards us with RADAR on, across a median, with my buddy in the lead. He saw the cop and slowed down quick, but I was still passing a car, so I passed him as the cop car went by going the other way. We were both on blue bikes, and the cop pulled him over because he was closest (and in the rear). I slowed down but kept riding, so the cop pulled back out and came after me. Then my buddy pulled in behind him, and he motioned for him to come around front.
I figure if they want you to pull over, they will let you know. Maybe a LEO will chime in with additional feedback.
Given that two motorcycles in staggered formation provide different targets of different distance, with similar RADAR profiles, I've never felt it's reliable to use in that scenario. He didn't write us up, since he couldn't prove which one of us was speeding, and the fact that we confused him when I took the lead. Plus there were other cars behind us, one which I thought was coming up fast.
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This is a tough call. And the reason for the stop is also a question. I called my SIL, a Sherrif, and a riding buddy also a Sheriff.
Both said the same thing, the number of riders would determine if it was even worth stopping the group.
My buddy is an on the road officer, and he has had a few instances that he was so far away from base, and assistance, he just followed and all slowed down. Another instance was a group of HD riders not going to fast, but to slow for the State Rt.
That group was 30 + strong. In that case he ran his lights alongside, motioning for the group to speed up.
This is a very good question, it will be interesting to see how this one pans out.
Ride safe all.
Greg
It's not a tough call at all. If he has his lights on, you pull over. No matter how many are in the troup. You simply pull over and let the officer decipher how he is going to handle it.
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Everyone should pull over, the LE may be responding to another situation.
If LE was going after the group (or someone in it) they will then determine how they will handle it, wait for back up, loudspeaker verbal instructions, etc. If they would be uncomfortable with potentially pulling a group of motorcyclists over, they would figure that out ahead of time, or, they just may need everyone out of the way so they can respond to some other emergency further down the road.
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Having been there... Everyone pull over at once, do a Chinese fire drill, run around the bikes, everyone pull license and registration, hand them all to the officer, speak in a different language (French is good). Helps if everyone is dressed in the same gear too ;)
FWIW, we were all tagged for doing 45 in a 45.
Rick
I like this idea......(I know that may surprise some of you) but unless someone was being stupidly speeding or num-braining it....I'm not much on speeding tickets under 10 over the limit...
too many tickets for speeding written where they are either,
1) traps
2) just written because someone is from out of state
3) Quotas (which are real)
4) just because some over zealous cop want to flaunt his/her authority
5)because they were targeting bikes, red cars, etc....(it does happen)
Oh, by the way, getting pulled over and being Deaf does have an advantage....just "speak" in ASL and the cops will just let you go.....don't ask me how I know.
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Now that is just good thinking Rick. You forgot to add: don't do anything that could rile up the LEO while running around and speaking in tongues.
Brian
Having been there... Everyone pull over at once, do a Chinese fire drill, run around the bikes, everyone pull license and registration, hand them all to the officer, speak in a different language (French is good). Helps if everyone is dressed in the same gear too ;)
FWIW, we were all tagged for doing 45 in a 45.
Rick
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I guess that would work for most everyone, deaf or not. Of course the risk for a non ASL 'speaking' person would be that that particular LEO did know sign language and that the person being stopped said something really stupid / naughty / challenging to the officer unwittingly. Or even wittingly- my experience is that LEO's often have poor senses of humor.
The only ASL sign I know is for cream (really) but I bet there is one for handcuffs, prison, 25 to life, etc.
Brian
<snip>
Oh, by the way, getting pulled over and being Deaf does have an advantage....just "speak" in ASL and the cops will just let you go.....don't ask me how I know.
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Well I know how to say "I love you" in ASL (long story that unfortunately did not end with me getting laid that particular night). Would that work? Probably more useful than Brian's "may I have more cream" ASL.
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Rules say when emergency vehicles approach with lights on, pull to the right and allow them to proceed. They will let you know what happens next.
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Nope, the sign I know is just 'cream', not may I have more cream. You could use it in 100's of different ways like "Is that stain on your trousers from cream?" if you knew the signs for "Is that stain on your trousers from" already. Just as an example.
If your "I love you" didn’t' work on that guy that night I would assume it wouldn't work on a LEO either.....
;D
Boy did this thread ever derail, huh?
Brian
Well I know how to say "I love you" in ASL (long story that unfortunately did not end with me getting laid that particular night). Would that work? Probably more useful than Brian's "may I have more cream" ASL.
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"Move right for sirens and lights!" The LEO will pull over the rider he wants. All others stay the heck out of it - "Nothing to see here, keep moving!"
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It's not a tough call at all. If he has his lights on, you pull over. No matter how many are in the troup. You simply pull over and let the officer decipher how he is going to handle it.
+1
Most recent example: Mixed group of V-twin cruisers, sport bikes and me on the Connie. Local LEO hit the lights - we all pulled over. LEO got on the loudspeaker and in very explicit terms told all of us "EXCEPT the guy on the black sport bike" to "roll at least a quarter mile down the road". LEO gave the guy he kept back a warning about "required windshield/eye protection".
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+1
Most recent example: Mixed group of V-twin cruisers, sport bikes and me on the Connie. Local LEO hit the lights - we all pulled over. LEO got on the loudspeaker and in very explicit terms told all of us "EXCEPT the guy on the black sport bike" to "roll at least a quarter mile down the road". LEO gave the guy he kept back a warning about "required windshield/eye protection".
I presume that warning must mean that you are required to have one or the other?
I wonder how some of our cut down shields would measure up in the LEO's eyes
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"Move right for sirens and lights!" The LEO will pull over the rider he wants. All others stay the heck out of it - "Nothing to see here, keep moving!"
That exactly. I'm not stopping unless it's clear I'm being singled out. I'll phone my buddies later after the stop.
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If your "I love you" didn’t' work on that guy that night I would assume it wouldn't work on a LEO either.....
;D
Boy did this thread ever derail, huh?
Brian
It would depend on the LEO. And she was a very nice-looking brunette. Think I missed an opportunity there . . .
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That exactly. I'm not stopping unless it's clear I'm being singled out. I'll phone my buddies later after the stop.
Or you can call them later asking them to come bail you out becuz you were a dumbass and didn't stop.
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"Oh, by the way, getting pulled over and being Deaf does have an advantage....just "speak" in ASL and the cops will just let you go.....don't ask me how I know."
Wanna Bet?
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Yes, I'll bet.. >:( well at least once...cause it happened to me...and I am Deaf...the cop didn't know ASL or evidently want to fool with writing down everything he wanted to say...
I carry a card that says for them to write everything down as I may not understand them by lip reading......
I'm sure there are a few hard-a$$es out there that will just write tickets and ignore someone who may not be able to communicate effectivly...but what they forget is an essential part of the citation process is, "Effectively communicate to the offender the violation, steps of due process for disputing the charge, and process to pay fines".
Without this being effectively communicated, the charge is invalid......
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I don't ride in groups often, but if I were to be riding with two or three bikes on the highway. I would act as if I were driving in a group of cars. If he pulls behind me I'll stop. I will always pull over to let any emergency vehicles pass. I have passed a few ambulances in the past, but it was on a 4-lane highway, and he was only running in the 80mph range.
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Or you can call them later asking them to come bail you out becuz you were a dumbass and didn't stop.
If I get a specific directive to stop, I'll stop. Otherwise, hell no. It's sort of a moot issue for me anyway because I rarely ride with groups.
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I can't believe this is even being discussed. It is as though one is asking if he actually has to follow the law. If cop is behind you, you pull over. It's the freakin' law. Where's the question?
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So I go riding with a sport group and the topic came up today about getting pulled over by the police... Is it best to let the guy in the rear of the group pull over by himself and "take one for the team" or are you better off if the whole group pulls over?
jworth, read the orginal question again.....above, from the top
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Silvera, I don't think that changes my answer.
If you're riding that close in a pack, pull over as such. If you were speeding, you were all speeding. Man up and take it. If cop doesn't want you all, he can send you on your way. If anything err on the side of deference to the cop.
Cruiser riders tend to pack up pretty closely. Sport bike riders tend to spread out. That might make a difference but since we are forced here to speak in generalities, I'll stick to my original answer.
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@ jworth- OK.... ;D
I think the whole situation is funky because trying to stop one bike say in a "group" of 8 is a almost impossible task without stopping the whole bunch....think about this, say the LEO was running radar and clocked the first guy/gal in the pack, by the time the LEO can take off and get to the group to stop them they could have changed "group position" several times.... plus if I were in that group....I'm not letting my "buddy" stop alone....ain't gonna happen...
I don't see "groups" doing much speeding say in numbers of 4 or more, it's usually the squids they are after anyway that are short distance, singles or a few, I just don't see a seasoned, well radar/laser versed LEO trying to stop a big group or a single out of a big group rider(s)....
Not smart or safe depending on the group.
But then again....I'm not a big beliver in "speed" tickets unless it is some stupid speed by a stupid driver/rider.
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Having been there... Everyone pull over at once, do a Chinese fire drill, run around the bikes, everyone pull license and registration, hand them all to the officer, speak in a different language (French is good). Helps if everyone is dressed in the same gear too ;)
FWIW, we were all tagged for doing 45 in a 45.
Rick
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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Make the cop select who he or she wants to pull over. Everyone else -- even if it's just one -- keeps going to the next obvious stop, such as a gas station, etc., to wait for the victim.
We discussed this on my last group ride. Sure enough, on the way home two of my buddies were on the road with a cop on the other side. Cop does the across the median u-turn and pulls in between them to pull over lead guy. Second buddy pulls over too, for support I guess, and also gets a ticket for his trouble. I say again, let them choose who they want, and that rider -- and only that rider -- pulls over for the fun tax.
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One guy should take off like a bat out of hell, flip off the cop, and shout out some obscenities and the word "gun." ;) :stirpot:
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One guy should take off like a bat out of hell, flip off the cop, and shout out some obscenities and the word "gun." ;) :stirpot:
That's probably the most stupid thing I've ever heard.....I really hope you're kidding. Good way to get someone killed.
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That's probably the most stupid thing I've ever heard.....I really hope you're kidding. Good way to get someone killed.
Of course I'm kidding (see the winking smiley?)... maybe even a bit satirical considering some of the other suggestions that might be misinterpreted by LEO as fleeing or evading! (why were you running, boy?)
To all you who thought I was serious and ready to flame... I quote the immortal words of Sgt Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis" ;D (that's a joke too)
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okdokey....didn't have my glasses on and couldn't tell what smiley was there. All I saw was the pot stirring. Carry on....
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Of course I'm kidding (see the winking smiley?)... maybe even a bit satirical considering some of the other suggestions that might be misinterpreted by LEO as fleeing or evading! (why were you running, boy?)
To all you who thought I was serious and ready to flame... I quote the immortal words of Sgt Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis" ;D (that's a joke too)
But it damn sure would take the pressure of the group though, wouldn't it!
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So I go riding with a sport group and the topic came up today about getting pulled over by the police... Is it best to let the guy in the rear of the group pull over by himself and "take one for the team" or are you better off if the whole group pulls over?
To the original question: The officer will pull over the rider he or she wants to pull over. You don't get to decide. As already mentioned just do what the law says and pull to the right and stop. Your whole group will rarely be pulled over unless you are all way over the limit or some special circumstance exists.
As for red cars, "traps," and out of state BS- you might want to do a ride-along with a police officer to investigate those myths.
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I did a "ride-a-long" so to speak...for over 15 years...although we didn't write tickets (our "tickets" came in the form of Federal Subponeas)....and yes...I do know that those things (red cars, traps and Out of state stops are not myths....
neither is profiling..... ( hahaha! and I did A LOT of profiling even though we wern't supposed to call it that, on Interstates and in airports)
and if you know how radar or now laser works you should know it is not exact even based on the officers "guess-ta-ment".....truth is....the LEO can say anything he wants...
I have an opinion here, that in a "group" of riders, that aren't spaced out too much, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to know which bike was speeding if not them all....even though Laser is more precise, it would be hard to be that accurate. I know it can be sighted, but in a group, there can be too much moving around by the time th stop is made. I stand on my orginal statement....I'm not big on the issuance of citations unless there is a safety concern, doing 5 to 10 over for a group to me is not excess....(in open country)
For these reasons of "traps", AND not to be surprised, I run a Rocky Mountain Radar/Laser scrambler...
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Since you are selling a product I can understand your opinion and I am sorry I missed the "1 to 10 MPH" part of your statement. I have never cited someone who was going that slow unless there were other factors (bad intersections, kids, weather, known criminal driver etc). Even with those other factors it is a rare event to stop someone going that slow. Please don't think I am a traffic hard ass from reading the following paragraphs. If you have ridden with me you know how I ride and that I don't give two poops how you ride unless you do really stupid / dangerous stuff that endangers people. Mmmm Kay? I only offer the following to combat popular uninformed views. Feel free to hate, I am used to it. I have never lost a speeding ticket in court (17 years and counting).
Laser and radar only confirm an officer's observations and are not needed to write tickets. Tickets were written in this country long before such devices were invented. The laser is absolutely accurate and radar is very accurate if operated to trained standards (i.e. nothing is idiot proof). Laser and stationary radar can only show a true speed or a lower target speed due to cosine error. And yes, I can pick out and cite a single bike in a group as long as I can see the headlight, know my tested laser reticle is accurate to that distance, and can honestly say I stopped the same bike I lasered. If these conditions are not met then no ticket is written. You might get stopped and warned if I know you were speeding, but I won't write if I can't stand up in court and swear to my God that those legal standards were met.
As for traps, that word conjures up images of cute, furry forest creatures that innocently stick their furry little paws into sharp toothed rusty metal devices designed to rip into their bodies and cause them to bleed. It is a silly term and relieves the violator of any responsibility. No one can trap you into speeding. You do it of your own free will.
There are a few A-holes and crooks that do my job just as there are A-holes and crooks that do your job. You won't read about crooks that do your job because no one cares if a plumber, computer tech, or engineer screws up. But a cop will be on the news for sure. If you want to project your experience with one A-hole cop to an entire group of hundreds of thousands of individuals, then have at it. We are used to it.
I see radar / laser detectors all the time on cars I stop for speeding (read that again for emphasis). They are great for the economy, put people to work, but give their users a false sense of security. They have very limited usefulness if the cop does his job right. If an officer chooses to leave his radar on all the time or is using it on traffic ahead of you, then yes, you will have plenty of warning. If not you will not have enough time to slow because even the standard cheapo units my dept uses are "instant on." And if you think you can scramble a modern laser / radar then all I can say is good luck. I have never seen one successfully used in my 17 years of experience. You should have saved that money for your ticket. ;D
Again, don't think I am a traffic Nazi. I only write for true safety issues and patrol in a city that has plenty of crashes due to people not stopping in time. My tickets are more about distracted driving and things that prevent drivers from seeing other highway users (i.e. things that will get a motorcyclist killed). Yes, that is profiling and is completely legal and ethical.
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Since you are selling a product I can understand your opinion and I am sorry I missed the "1 to 10 MPH" part of your statement. I have never cited someone who was going that slow unless there were other factors (bad intersections, kids, weather, known criminal driver etc). Even with those other factors it is a rare event to stop someone going that slow. Please don't think I am a traffic hard ass from reading the following paragraphs. If you have ridden with me you know how I ride and that I don't give two poops how you ride unless you do really stupid / dangerous stuff that endangers people. Mmmm Kay? I only offer the following to combat popular uninformed views. Feel free to hate, I am used to it. I have never lost a speeding ticket in court (17 years and counting).
Laser and radar only confirm an officer's observations and are not needed to write tickets. Tickets were written in this country long before such devices were invented. The laser is absolutely accurate and radar is very accurate if operated to trained standards (i.e. nothing is idiot proof). Laser and stationary radar can only show a true speed or a lower target speed due to cosine error. And yes, I can pick out and cite a single bike in a group as long as I can see the headlight, know my tested laser reticle is accurate to that distance, and can honestly say I stopped the same bike I lasered. If these conditions are not met then no ticket is written. You might get stopped and warned if I know you were speeding, but I won't write if I can't stand up in court and swear to my God that those legal standards were met.
As for traps, that word conjures up images of cute, furry forest creatures that innocently stick their furry little paws into sharp toothed rusty metal devices designed to rip into their bodies and cause them to bleed. It is a silly term and relieves the violator of any responsibility. No one can trap you into speeding. You do it of your own free will.
There are a few A-holes and crooks that do my job just as there are A-holes and crooks that do your job. You won't read about crooks that do your job because no one cares if a plumber, computer tech, or engineer screws up. But a cop will be on the news for sure. If you want to project your experience with one A-hole cop to an entire group of hundreds of thousands of individuals, then have at it. We are used to it.
I see radar / laser detectors all the time on cars I stop for speeding (read that again for emphasis). They are great for the economy, put people to work, but give their users a false sense of security. They have very limited usefulness if the cop does his job right. If an officer chooses to leave his radar on all the time or is using it on traffic ahead of you, then yes, you will have plenty of warning. If not you will not have enough time to slow because even the standard cheapo units my dept uses are "instant on." And if you think you can scramble a modern laser / radar then all I can say is good luck. I have never seen one successfully used in my 17 years of experience. You should have saved that money for your ticket. ;D
Again, don't think I am a traffic Nazi. I only write for true safety issues and patrol in a city that has plenty of crashes due to people not stopping in time. My tickets are more about distracted driving and things that prevent drivers from seeing other highway users (i.e. things that will get a motorcyclist killed). Yes, that is profiling and is completely legal and ethical.
Selling a product??? HUH???
The rest of it was interesting, funny and a good way to pass a few minutes of time... ;D :deadhorse:
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One guy should take off like a bat out of hell, flip off the cop, and shout out some obscenities and the word "gun." ;) :stirpot:
Shouting 'Allah Akbar' might get a better result...
;D
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There are a few A-holes and crooks that do my job just as there are A-holes and crooks that do your job.
Very good point, I've honestly never thought of it from that perspective.
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I used to see this quite a bit down south in the past, not sure if they do it anymore. The police would have 4 or 5 police cars cars lined up in the median, they'd snare a car in a group, a brave/stupid cop would walk out into the road as a group of cars approached, naturally, all would move over/slow way down, and he would very dramatically point at a group to stop, so, many stopped, and....many didn't, guess who got citations? It was silly and really dangerous. They never went after the cars that did not stop, and whole rows of 5-10 cars would be lined up getting citations. I move over for emergency vehicles and stop when I'm told to, but a vague pointing and gesture to a whole group to pull over after clocking one car in a group smacked of income generation. I have not seen this in about 10 years or so.
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I used to see this quite a bit down south in the past, not sure if they do it anymore. The police would have 4 or 5 police cars cars lined up in the median, they'd snare a car in a group, a brave/stupid cop would walk out into the road as a group of cars approached, naturally, all would move over/slow way down, and he would very dramatically point at a group to stop, so, many stopped, and....many didn't, guess who got citations? It was silly and really dangerous. They never went after the cars that did not stop, and whole rows of 5-10 cars would be lined up getting citations. I move over for emergency vehicles and stop when I'm told to, but a vague pointing and gesture to a whole group to pull over after clocking one car in a group smacked of income generation. I have not seen this in about 10 years or so.
Yes I have seen this too....and almost stopped at one in Tenessee one time....I kept going...
and this ladies and gentlemen is called a speed "TRAP"
Thanks for the post Strawboss
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I wasn't sure if it was appropriate or not to post that, I didn't want to pile on and inflame any emotions. Heck, I'm out there too, and the highway is THE MOST dangerous place to be for an emergency vehicle, even though I think its the most SAFE place to be in a moving car. When I am enroute I actually turn my lights off until just before getting on scene because most all drivers just don't know what to do when an emergency vehicle approaches them, and, I can't blame them as we are going almost the same speed as them on the highway and most times its just not practical or safe for many cars to try to pull over into 1 lane going 65mph. Sorry if I strayed here. To answer the question, when a police car is directly in back of me, I will pull over, but only if it is in back of me, simple.
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As it was once explained to me by a LEO: "We can't catch 'em all...but, I caught you this time."
Groups don't get a "Group Ticket" to split among themselves.
Each vehicle on the road has a different:
Operator
License Plate
Insurance Card
VIN
And they would each get an individual ticket...
So, with that being said, there are no groups...there are many individual operators...if a LEO is directly behind me with lights on...I will pull over. That's the law.
BTW...as several on this forum can attest to...I ride/drive like an old man (in the speed context, not the wobbling)...so, it's not much of an issue for me. ;)
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Yes I have seen this too....and almost stopped at one in Tenessee one time....I kept going...
and this ladies and gentlemen is called a speed "TRAP"
Thanks for the post Strawboss
Yep, seen ths many times over the years!