Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: B.D.F. on August 13, 2017, 12:50:42 PM
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Two weeks ago, a newspaper photographer, Ryan M. Kelly, gave his notice. He was leaving not only the newspaper but that entire field and going to work for a brewery. His last day would be yesterday, 12 August, 2017. I think most of us know how it is 'running out the clock' after giving notice but this time it would be just a little different perhaps: He worked for the Charlottesville, Va., Daily Progress, was covering the rioting that was happening there and this was his last photograph taken for the newspaper:
(http://i.imgur.com/ooNiQBM.jpg)
Brian
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Yep, a handful of crazy extremists giving the media a field day. Important to note:
"Virginia governor Terry McAuliffe declared a state of emergency, stating: "It is now clear that public safety cannot be safeguarded without additional powers, and that the mostly-out-of-state protesters have come to Virginia to endanger our citizens and property. I am disgusted by the hatred, bigotry and violence these protesters have brought to our state.""
I am just as disgusted at these extremists. Also disgusted by the media's slant on it all, too.
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I made no political comment nor did I cast any political slant on this; I merely pointed out that it was ironic that this particular photographer's last day yielded these photos.
As to the crazy extremists, one must wonder what their view of your beliefs might be. No matter, all are protected fully under the First Amendment as far as I am able to discern. Well, all but the Governor of VA, who as a member of 'the State', cannot infringe on any rights given by any part of the Constitution; remember, the entire document is designed to protect us against them, not us against differing versions of us. And as Governor, he is most certainly a 'them'.
It will be interesting to see what his constituents think of the gentleman in 2018 when he is up for re-election.
Brian
Yep, a handful of crazy extremists giving the media a field day. Important to note:
"Virginia governor Terry McAuliffe declared a state of emergency, stating: "It is now clear that public safety cannot be safeguarded without additional powers, and that the mostly-out-of-state protesters have come to Virginia to endanger our citizens and property. I am disgusted by the hatred, bigotry and violence these protesters have brought to our state.""
I am just as disgusted at these extremists. Also disgusted by the media's slant on it all, too.
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I made no political comment nor did I cast any political slant on this;
I wasn't implying so
As to the crazy extremists, one must wonder what their view of your beliefs might be.
One can only imagine how they would twist them to fit their expectations.
No matter, all are protected fully under the First Amendment as far as I am able to discern.
Pretty much, as long as they can spew their hatred peacefully.
It will be interesting to see what his constituents think of the gentleman in 2018 when he is up for re-election.
Well, at least I know MY vote WILL count in that election, since it is the only one that is "at large." Because of the way the voting precincts are drawn, none of my General Assembly voting ever matters.
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Ah yes, the 'crazy extremists' would twist views to fit their expectations while you would see things clearly and justly, and then impose your far more correct vision on who, everyone? Or just the 'crazy extremists'? How about a test, and then 'we' would know who 'they' were and could take the proper steps?
Do you not see why the First Amendment MUST be applied here? Can you possibly believe your beliefs and views are somehow 'better' or 'more correct' than others? And if not, what might be the limits of your 'superior vision or understanding'?
These last two posts are the very reason why the Constitution exists. To protect all against.... some, who would not allow all opinions and beliefs. After all, Joseph McCarthy was just trying to straighten out the gov't and get rid of the 'evil' ones. Until finally Edward R. Murrow stood up to him and his unlawful behavior, and Murrow, a true patriot, stopped McCarthy in his tracks using nothing but the truth and the Constitution. The underlying problem was, and is, that there is nothing illegal about being a Communist, or a liberal, or a conservative or anything else one chooses to be in the United States. And anyone who opposes that concept would be defined, at least in my opinion, as an 'enemy, domestic' as in the oath: to defend the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.
The key thing here is that people CAN be whatever they chose to be here: Nazis, White Supremacists, Black Panthers.... whatever. And none of it is wrong or illegal, and all have the same rights. We have had some truly shameful moments in US history when we have forgotten these very basic rules: the suspension of habeas corpus by Lincoln, the Trail of Tears by Jackson, the Sedition Act by Wilson, the Internment via Executive Order 9066 by FDR, the Patriot Act under Bush and so many other illegal, immoral and unconstitutional actions and yet we learn nothing.
So by all means, support / oppose whatever group(s) you care to, I will continue to try my very best to follow 'the rules' as I can understand them.
Brian
I wasn't implying so
One can only imagine how they would twist them to fit their expectations.
Pretty much, as long as they can spew their hatred peacefully.
Well, at least I know MY vote WILL count in that election, since it is the only one that is "at large." Because of the way the voting precincts are drawn, none of my General Assembly voting ever matters.
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Ah yes, the 'crazy extremists' would twist views to fit their expectations while you would see things clearly and justly, and then impose your far more correct vision on who, everyone? Or just the 'crazy extremists'? How about a test, and then 'we' would know who 'they' were and could take the proper steps?
Do you not see why the First Amendment MUST be applied here? Can you possibly believe your beliefs and views are somehow 'better' or 'more correct' than others? And if not, what might be the limits of your 'superior vision or understanding'?
So by all means, support / oppose whatever group(s) you care to, I will continue to try my very best to follow 'the rules' as I can understand them.
For some reason I can't fathom, it sounds like you are using me as a stand-in for a "straw man" and implying I oppose free speech?? I strongly support the Constitution, all of it, including the 1st Amendment (well, I think the income tax is a mess and wasteful, but whatever, it is the law, although not even part of the original Constitution nor the Bill of Rights). And that does mean that KKK/White Supremacist/Nazi supporters should be allowed to PEACEFULLY assemble, protest, carry nasty signs, or burn flags.
But even so, yeah, I do think that my beliefs that all law-abiding citizens should have equal rights, equal protection under the law, and the right to pursue happiness is a bit "better" and "more correct" than the apparent KKK/White Supremacist/Nazis' views. I do find their beliefs disgusting, as I said earlier, not the Constitution that allows them the freedom to hold such beliefs.
I will, indeed, oppose their groups while I also continue my very best to follow 'the rules' as I can understand them, too.
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what I found interesting watching some of the coverage is that it's pretty obvious there are people from both sides going out and looking for a fight.
Ie there are groups on both sides equipping themselves with "riot" shields and helmets , also with identifying markers painted on many of them
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Looks like post apocalyptic tribal warfare.
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Looks to ke that once again certain groups are more equal than others and if you dont bow down to them and submit you are labeled as a supremicist, racist and a Nationalist.
It it bad to be for our nation?
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What struck me about your last post, that I responded too, was the fact that you quoted the Gov. of VA. You can say whatever you want. I can say whatever I want. He may be able to say whatever he wants but he certainly cannot do whatever he wants. He is the 'them' that the Constitution protects all of 'us' from in the first place, and regardless of what he thinks, wants or hopes, he cannot actually do any number of things, one of which is to prevent the assembly of the people. Now, suspending an assembly that is already underway I think is w/in his power and abilities if that assembly has turned so violent that it represents a thread to the public safety, which certainly seemed to be the case here (the Constitution is NOT a suicide pact after all) but those rights must be restored as soon as practical or again, he would be over- stepping his power.
So you are correct that you did not say anything directly that suggested you wanted to infringe on anyone's rights, but by quoting the Gov., who I think may be infringing on some rights, and seems bent politically to do so, and then stating that you agreed with him on at least two specific points, I took it as general support for the man and his policies. If this is wrong, then we are not in conflict in this area. But as I said, I strongly and absolutely resist those in political office who seem to forget how things must work as they cast their views of 'right' onto all of us and downcast any who are not do not 'think correctly'.
But again, as I said before, I was really and truly not trying to start a political based thread. I simply found that photo (that is the last in a series BTW), probably the most poignant photo the man ever took in his career and probably his entire life, to be ironic as it was the last photo taken for a job he had already quit and was just hanging around, running out the proverbial clock. I had no other meaning or agenda, honest.
Brian
For some reason I can't fathom, it sounds like you are using me as a stand-in for a "straw man" and implying I oppose free speech?? I strongly support the Constitution, all of it, including the 1st Amendment (well, I think the income tax is a mess and wasteful, but whatever, it is the law, although not even part of the original Constitution nor the Bill of Rights). And that does mean that KKK/White Supremacist/Nazi supporters should be allowed to PEACEFULLY assemble, protest, carry nasty signs, or burn flags.
But even so, yeah, I do think that my beliefs that all law-abiding citizens should have equal rights, equal protection under the law, and the right to pursue happiness is a bit "better" and "more correct" than the apparent KKK/White Supremacist/Nazis' views. I do find their beliefs disgusting, as I said earlier, not the Constitution that allows them the freedom to hold such beliefs.
I will, indeed, oppose their groups while I also continue my very best to follow 'the rules' as I can understand them, too.
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Oh, it was far more serious that that: there were groups of people (civilians, apparently in support of the rally) wearing body armor and carrying AR-15's, moving through the parade route ahead of the actual parade to make sure it was safe. You probably do not know this but VA is an 'open carry' state, which means one can carry long arms at will as long as it is done so openly (not concealed, although concealing an AR makes one walk funny, at least it makes me walk funny). What they were doing was perfectly and completely legal but I think it goes to show the intensity of this issue.
Now that we are on this political bent, I will throw in a couple of comments: The issue is that there is a statue of R.E. Lee on public property, and some believe that represents both an acknowledgement of the norm of slavery but also indicates lingering support for slavery or at least the idea that slavery was not bad or wrong.
There are many statues of great Confederate military and some political figures throughout the south, as well as cities, towns, streets, et al. named after these same people. Personally, I do not think they are there to represent slavery or anything similar but a part of Southern history, which is a pretty normal and accepted thing to do. However, there is a significant segment of the population who are offended by these people being honored because they come from, and on some level represent, an opressive period in our history. All of that is fine and well. But a LOT of those statues are on public property and that makes the public's opinion meaningful (anyone can have a statue of anyone on private property) and this is at the root of these clashes. This is not an isolated event but one in a series of contests, squabbles, a few riots and a huge amount of anger, on both sides, regarding this whole issue. And here is the real problem: there is no clear answer. If a vote were taken, as it probably should be to settle this issue, I suspect most of the statues would remain. And that would leave a very significant minority of the population unhappy.
So there is the question: can and should a local gov't agency have any symbolism that offends a substantial minority of the population? I <believe> the legal answer would be yes. The moral question is harder and I do not have an opinion. Should town, cities and states remove these references, all the way to the state flags of several Southern states? Again, I am not able to find what is the right answer; a lot of southerners are proud of the antebellum south, and there is much to be proud of about that period. People such as R.E. Lee were great men, more than worthy of being honored with statues, again in my opinion and remember, I am a northerner and so bear no automatic or bred- in Confederate allegiance. But Gen. Lee was considered the finest officer in the US Army, and in facct was offered the command of ALL US Soldiers by none other than Abraham Lincoln and possibly would have accepted but he could not bring himself to raise arms against his own home state (which was VA by the way). So we are not talking about Joseph Stalin here. I personally think he was a great man, more than worth respect and even admiration but he was also a slave owner although I do not know if he actually supported slavery (many Southern slave holders thought slavery wrong, a true paradox of American history: Thomas Jefferson, himself a slave owner, said several times 'Holding onto Slavery is like holding a wolf by the ear; you do not like it but you do not dare let it go', and freed all of his slaves upon his death).
The issue seems to be moving pretty briskly toward ridding the South of these references. That may be the best thing to do but maybe not. But either way, it does appear that there is going to be more than a little blood spilled over the issue and we are not done or even near the end of resolving it as far as I can see.
Brian
what I found interesting watching some of the coverage is that it's pretty obvious there are people from both sides going out and looking for a fight.
Ie there are groups on both sides equipping themselves with "riot" shields and helmets , also with identifying markers painted on many of them
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The War of Northern Aggression was the only war I can think of that the losers got to immortalize their heroes as if they were winners.
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They werent immortalized as winners. They were immortalized for standing up for the cause. There cause was NOT slqvery.
By eliminating these monuments we are doomed to forget history and setting up for failure.
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They werent immortalized as winners. They were immortalized for standing up for the cause. There cause was NOT slqvery.
By eliminating these monuments we are doomed to forget history and setting up for failure.
That is the normal course for the human race throughout history.
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They werent immortalized as winners. They were immortalized for standing up for the cause. There cause was NOT slqvery.
By eliminating these monuments we are doomed to forget history and setting up for failure.
Think I've got this right but I'm sure one of the reports I saw over here on it suggested that a "compromise" may be something like.
1) Leave these statues in place
2) Add new memorials for the slaving side of things (eg at some of the places that were used as markets etc)
Of course I may have over simplified that and as the old saying goes you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time
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And so it continues. A Springfield, MA (that is a LONG way from Virginia, and solidly in the north, not the southern, US. I mention this for any non- US readers) has posted on FaceTwit: "Hahahaha love this, maybe people shouldn't block road ways." This is a classic case of what a gov't official CANNOT say in the currently 'politically correct' environment that is the US of A. It is his opinion, is protected under the Constitution and he cannot be punished in any way by the Gov't for saying it. However, he most certainly can and probably will be punished to some degree by his employer, the Springfield Police Dept., yep, the man is an active duty L.E.O. and me thinks he's gonna' pay for this one. The gentleman apologized but that ain't gonna' feed the bulldog. The chief of the dept. as well as the Mayor of Springfield immediately jumped on the 'let's get 'em!' bandwagon.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/police-officer-accused-mocking-charlottesville-violence-051513823.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/police-officer-accused-mocking-charlottesville-violence-051513823.html)
Brian
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Certainly possible but unlikely I think. The politically correct atmosphere here is so thick that it is really becoming impossible to oppose, even by comment, the "correct" flow of things, and right now, all things linked in any way with slavery are just 'out'. I do not see any compromise coming or being viable.
But because you are not an American, I am going to go way out on a limb here and expand on this a little: of course we had slavery until 1865 and of course it was pretty brutal and certainly morally wrong. And still further, while we ended slavery in 1865 technically, the basic method of treating the black population as second- class citizens continued on, in many ways exactly as it had been before emancipation, until the 1950's / 1960's, and even then only began to change, it was not eliminated quickly; some would say it continues to this day but I do not subscribe to that. Certainly there is prejudice but IMO, all significant 'walls' have been eliminated and a black person can go wherever and do whatever he / she chooses to, within the confines of our society that apply to all, of course.
But in the last few decades, we have entered some strange (to me anyway) era where we have new, unwritten rules about our behavior and even, maybe especially, our views. For example: it is not enough to leave homosexual people alone and not discriminate against them, we are basically required to at least like it and in many cases, love it, and further, must hate anyone / everyone who does not also profess to love it. This applies to all minority groups but especially any of those who were at any time in the past ill- treated. And finally, and this is the part that is really 'going down sideways' for a LOT of us, we must also feel terrible, ashamed and so forth for 1) our ancestors past deeds (I have never enslaved anyone and further, my own ancestors were NOT in the US when anyone WAS enslaved) and 2) be ashamed and also feel horrible for not being a minority, a member of a disenfranchised group and especially, a member of "the privileged race / gender". A lot of what you are seeing in the US is the crankiness this last part has generated 'cause as a white, middle- class male, I am not ashamed of my being white, my being male or anything I have EARNED (if there is some place where us 'privileged' people get some kind of free ride through life or even discounts, I have not yet found them and the clock is running out). I am not pleased when black people or organizations not merely accuse but state outright that "I" have somehow wronged "them". I am not pleased when females group me in with rapists and all others who have behaved badly and incorrectly toward females: I am not a rapist or abuser and refuse to hang my head in shame as a member of any abuser's 'group'. So while I am not seething with rage, I am not at all happy with this new political landscape.
I am not a radical and yet a lot of this situation is making me cranky. So frankly, I do not see a compromise coming, in fact, I see more clashes and move violent confrontations coming. And while I am being blunt and out here on the limb.... that the moderators may well saw off <grin>, let me add that while I live in a very quiet, non- urban area with zero racial conflict, I personally would not take very kindly to some of the behavior I have seen demonstrated recently. To put it even more bluntly, masses of protesting people blocking a highway I am traveling on are not going to be sympathized with, in fact that would probably go badly, for all of us. And I am not a radical.....
So I hope that sheds a little light, perhaps from a different angle than you may be getting from official news sources, about the underlying causes of some of what is going on here Mike. I will also send this post as an e-mail should it become..... unavailable. :-) Or sent off to the Arena, where you may not participate (I do not participate in the Arena).
Brian
Think I've got this right but I'm sure one of the reports I saw over here on it suggested that a "compromise" may be something like.
1) Leave these statues in place
2) Add new memorials for the slaving side of things (eg at some of the places that were used as markets etc)
Of course I may have over simplified that and as the old saying goes you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time
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Positive discrimination is just as bad as negative discrimination.
Actually if it's government endorsed then IMHO it's worse
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Just a couple of "civil" war facts.
About 6% of Southerners owned slaves; about 3% owned almost all of the slaves. While slavery was a factor in the war, it wasn't THE cause for the war.
Regarding removing symbols that honor Confederate generals/soldiers/politicians, this would have effects other than just removing a few statues. In our part of the state (Texas), I can name a quick few:
1. Hood County, named for General John Bell Hood.
2. In that county is the town of Granbury, named for General Hyram Bronson Granbury.
3. Nearby town of Cleburne is named for General Patrick Ronayne Cleburne.
4. Cleburne is in Johnson County, named for Middleton Tate Johnson who was a member of the Sucession Convention and was regimental commander in the Confederate Army (he raised the Fourteenth Texas Cavalry Regiment).
These are but a few within just a few miles of each other. Are we to rename all of the counties and towns/cities that have a link to the Confederate side of the war? Or, can we just accept our history, remember it for what it is, and move forward to see that such things are not repeated?
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How about Fort Hood?
In VA we have Camp AP Hill and Fort Pickett, both named for Confederate generals. I would daresay that quite a few military installations in the south are named after the confederate military. I don't have any issues with southern military folks, monuments, roads, etc.., but I'm a middle aged white guy in Virginia that wears armour (Mikey) and flaunts the St. George's Cross and waves a long sword.
As far as the resurgence in the Confederate side of things (and in saying this my ancestors fought on the Confederate side), we lost and need to get over it. It's been over a hundred years since that war was fought. It's over and done with and I'm quite happy we're still a somewhat unified nation. I don't hold a grudge against GB for the War of 1812 or the oppression of the Colonies.
I think it's important to understand the history of our nation and why things happened the way that they did.
Now as far as Nazi's go, I do hold a grudge as they support an organization that tried to kill my mother in England during WWII. As far as I'm concerned they should put them all against a wall and Fn shoot em or run them over with cars.
What strikes me as strange is the consternation about the Sam Houston statue in Houston. He refused to swear allegiance to the Confederacy yet the Confederate supporters are rallying around keeping the statue intact. From what I know he had very little to do with the Confederacy although he did refuse Federal assistance to put down the Confederate rebellion in Texas. From what I read he's an all American true hero and is above the fray about the angst against southern memorials. If there is talk about removing his memorials and statues because they think he was for the Confederacy they're a bunch of fidiots. What else are they going to do, rename Houston?
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Just a couple of "civil" war facts.
About 6% of Southerners owned slaves; about 3% owned almost all of the slaves. While slavery was a factor in the war, it wasn't THE cause for the war.
Regarding removing symbols that honor Confederate generals/soldiers/politicians, this would have effects other than just removing a few statues. In our part of the state (Texas), I can name a quick few:
1. Hood County, named for General John Bell Hood.
2. In that county is the town of Granbury, named for General Hyram Bronson Granbury.
3. Nearby town of Cleburne is named for General Patrick Ronayne Cleburne.
4. Cleburne is in Johnson County, named for Middleton Tate Johnson who was a member of the Sucession Convention and was regimental commander in the Confederate Army (he raised the Fourteenth Texas Cavalry Regiment).
These are but a few within just a few miles of each other. Are we to rename all of the counties and towns/cities that have a link to the Confederate side of the war? Or, can we just accept our history, remember it for what it is, and move forward to see that such things are not repeated?
WE, as in Society, are not that smart. And WE, as in Society, allow ourselves to be manipulated by people who do not have our best interests at heart. Until there is a massive shift in public awareness and thinking the answer to your question is a resounding NO.
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I totally agree with that opinion, Gary. Someone in the public eye is going to have to say no, we ain't gonna do it. Get over it. We're not renaming a bazillion things just to be PC.
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Ah, Sam Houston: a patriot, a statesman, a man with a cast- iron will, and a man who would not only try but actually do 'the right thing' even at his own personal loss of position, finance and at the risk of his very life and limb. A true American hero who is not better appreciated and I have no idea as to why that is so.
As a US Senator from the State of Texas, he would and did oppose any actions that would endanger the Union, be those threats from the North OR from the South (nullifiers):
"Whatever is calculated to weaken or impair the strength of [the] Union,—whether originating at the North or the South,—whether arising from the incendiary violence of abolitionists, or from the coalition of nullifiers, will never meet with my unqualified approval."
For the greater good, not only for his beloved state (and previous Republic- Texas was a country for a while, and Sam Houston was a President of that country, as well as the Governor of TX when it succeeded from the Union) but for all of The United States, yes, Sam Huston both refused to take an oath as Governor to join the Confederacy (after Texas had already succeed from the Union via the legislature). He was forced from the Governorship of TX by the legislature who had already voted to secede from the Union and said this after his ousting:
"Fellow-Citizens, in the name of your rights and liberties, which I believe have been trampled upon, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the nationality of Texas, which has been betrayed by the Convention, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the Constitution of Texas, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of my own conscience and manhood, which this Convention would degrade by dragging me before it, to pander to the malice of my enemies, I refuse to take this oath. I deny the power of this Convention to speak for Texas....I protest....against all the acts and doings of this convention and I declare them null and void."
But I think his true genius as well as his practical political insight is shown in the speech he gave after leaving (being forced from actually) office as Governor of Texas due to its succession. Remember, at the time, the secession of the various southern states was thought by most, and all in political office I think, to be a minor issue that could be easily and readily corrected with nothing much more than a skirmish or two; the swatting of a pesky fly. A. Lincoln called for volunteers to put down this insurrection, many months later, with a 90 day enlistment: few believed it would be a significant conflict. One was William Tecumseh Sherman, who was dismissed from the US Army under suspicion of being insane when he predicted a long and costly war. Another was Sam Houston who said this in a speech given from a hotel window, traveling after leaving the governorship of TX, on 19 April, 1861, five months before the first 'skirmish' of the Civil War at Bull Run:
"Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, you may win Southern independence if God be not against you, but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of states rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South."
The man saw very clearly what almost no one else did, exactly what was coming and why it should have been avoided. And what he predicted is exactly what happened though he would not live to see it happen. Just as well probably.
Engraved on his tombstone:
The inscription on his tomb reads:
A Brave Soldier. A Fearless Statesman.
A Great Orator—A Pure Patriot.
A Faithful Friend, A Loyal Citizen.
A Devoted Husband and Father.
A Consistent Christian—An Honest Man.
I cannot think of a modern historical figure I would more like to meet or spend a few minutes in the presence of than this gentleman.
Brian
<snip>
What strikes me as strange is the consternation about the Sam Houston statue in Houston. He refused to swear allegiance to the Confederacy yet the Confederate supporters are rallying around keeping the statue intact. From what I know he had very little to do with the Confederacy although he did refuse Federal assistance to put down the Confederate rebellion in Texas. From what I read he's an all American true hero and is above the fray about the angst against southern memorials. If there is talk about removing his memorials and statues because they think he was for the Confederacy they're a bunch of fidiots. What else are they going to do, rename Houston?
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As I said, what we have here in the US is far worse than discrimination, it is the total inability to state facts or simply tell the truth. With restrictions such as these, how can we possibly progress?
Brian
Positive discrimination is just as bad as negative discrimination.
Actually if it's government endorsed then IMHO it's worse
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Wow! Did you know that Sam Houston was born in Virginia near Lexington! Now I want to read his biography and learn more about him.
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What struck me about your last post, that I responded too, was the fact that you quoted the Gov. of VA.
I was kinda just commenting on the event itself, how it was mostly outsiders who came to make trouble. Wasn't about the photograph or anything you said.
You can say whatever you want. I can say whatever I want. He may be able to say whatever he wants but he certainly cannot do whatever he wants. He is the 'them' that the Constitution protects all of 'us' from in the first place, and regardless of what he thinks, wants or hopes, he cannot actually do any number of things, one of which is to prevent the assembly of the people. Now, suspending an assembly that is already underway I think is w/in his power and abilities if that assembly has turned so violent that it represents a thread to the public safety, which certainly seemed to be the case here (the Constitution is NOT a suicide pact after all) but those rights must be restored as soon as practical or again, he would be over- stepping his power.
OK, now I see your comments were more about him, not about anything I said. He does have the power to shut down a protest if it turns violent or if safeguards were not in place to make sure it could be handled if it became violent. I can't speak for the Governor, but I don't think he was implying that it should never have been allowed.
So you are correct that you did not say anything directly that suggested you wanted to infringe on anyone's rights, but by quoting the Gov., who I think may be infringing on some rights, and seems bent politically to do so, and then stating that you agreed with him on at least two specific points, I took it as general support for the man and his policies. If this is wrong, then we are not in conflict in this area. But as I said, I strongly and absolutely resist those in political office who seem to forget how things must work as they cast their views of 'right' onto all of us and downcast any who are not do not 'think correctly'.
OK, no prob. I didn't read what he said the same way you did. And I would NEVER agree with someone trying to silence free speech or peaceful assembly :)
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They werent immortalized as winners. They were immortalized for standing up for the cause. There cause was NOT slavery.
By eliminating these monuments we are doomed to forget history and setting up for failure.
And that is how I tend to feel about it. The "South" was wrong, but so was the entire WORLD at some point in time. Some of those statues represent people who also did lots of good things, had good character, or did significant things in history. Trying to erase history is not a good idea. I can understand some people [usually those of lesser education] would find Confederate-related statues offensive. But would those same people want to take down statues of the founding fathers who also just happened to have slaves? Better remove George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Hancock, Patrick Henry, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, and lots of others from all currency, portraits, topple all their statues, and rename all the places named for them. Until some point in time, slavery was the norm in the entire country and remained so for a long time. Slavery wasn't even abolished in the UK until 1833, 57 years after the USA was born.
So I support the right of people to vote to remove the statue from public property, but I think removing it is the wrong thing to do and just panders to the never-ending escalation of the "PC" society. There are a lot of things out there that offend ME. And and I sure, like most European Americans, I can look back into MY history and find my relatives enslaved. So what? I don't want special treatment. I don't want "reparations." I don't want to erase that history. I prefer to live in the NOW and look back thinking just how lucky we all are... especially to live in such a great country.
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As far as the resurgence in the Confederate side of things (and in saying this my ancestors fought on the Confederate side), we lost and need to get over it. It's been over a hundred years since that war was fought.
But there is the key. "WE" didn't lose anything. None of us were alive! I am a Virginian, I was born in the Mid-Atlantic, I attended an integrated school, I am even currently a minority in the city where I live! The "South" was a "they", not a we. Personally, I don't consider myself "Southern", and never did, anymore than I would consider myself a "Colonist" or a British subject, or anything else from what I think of as the ancient past. It is what we do now that matters.
It's over and done with and I'm quite happy we're still a somewhat unified nation. I don't hold a grudge against GB for the War of 1812 or the oppression of the Colonies.
Exactly
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I knew he was born in VA but not where specifically.
Sam Houston was a remarkable human and unless an author was completely incompetent and perhaps not familiar with the English language, I cannot believe any biography about him would not be utterly fascinating. And yet again, I have no idea why but he is just not an American icon as I think he should be.
Another favorite of mine, and a Southerner, is Andrew Jackson. Not a man without flaws, some quite serious, he is nevertheless a stand-out individual and again, a fascinating man. Of all he did and all he accomplished, he was most proud of his service as a General in the War of 1812, and in fact, insisted on being addressed as 'General Jackson' even during his Presidency. Nicknamed Old Hickory due to his toughness, he arrived at the White House with a couple of balls still in him from duels. A hard man, he would tolerate no insolence and was insistent on settling matters of honor with a pistol in a duel; during his Presidency, he nearly beat a would- be assassin to death with his cane after the attacker's pistols failed to fire (serves the idiot right, two misfires in one day!), the only thing saving the attacker was Jackson's people pulling the President, er excuse me, the General off of him. Routinely condemned for the debacle that came to be known as the 'Trail of Tears', in which he is said to have responded to a Supreme Court ruling with "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!", that is erroneous and unjustly condemns the man IMO. The truth is more complex, as life often is. Andrew Jackson was President during the shameful 'Trail of Tears' borne by the Cherokee Indians of the South, mostly Georgia and the Carolinas.
But my favorite part of Andrew Jackson's life can be summed up with the oft quoted exchange between two servants, present at his death bed: the first asks the second "Do you think General Jackson is in heaven?" to which the second responds: 'if General Jackson wants to go to heaven, who would stop him?'. I could not ask for more, nor do I expect as much, when I die. Another American icon and hero, though not without the often found flaws and warts. Still, an amazing man IMO and well worth learning about.
Brian
Wow! Did you know that Sam Houston was born in Virginia near Lexington! Now I want to read his biography and learn more about him.
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A perfect video for the current flavor of the discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiU20QjKPCo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiU20QjKPCo)
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But there is the key. "WE" didn't lose anything. None of us were alive! I am a Virginian, I was born in the Mid-Atlantic, I attended an integrated school, I am even currently a minority in the city where I live! The "South" was a "they", not a we. Personally, I don't consider myself "Southern", and never did, anymore than I would consider myself a "Colonist" or a British subject, or anything else from what I think of as the ancient past. It is what we do now that matters.
Exactly
Good point. I also attended an integrated school but when it first happened in 1969 in VA. But I do consider myself 'Southern' and English. I have to consider myself something. I grew up moving all over the place (Dad in AF) so really I consider myself both English and Southern at the same time. I'm proud of my origins on both sides.
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A perfect video for the current flavor of the discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiU20QjKPCo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiU20QjKPCo)
Sorry Max, Georgie boy has no credibility other than that which he assigns himself. He believes himself to be such a pure conservative that he felt the need to support the communist democrat in the 2016 election rather than the insurgent Trump.
corrected my dumass typing
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Sorry Jim, Georgie boy has no credibility other than that which he assigns himself. He believes himself to be such a pure conservative that he felt the need to support the communist democrat in the 2016 election rather than the insurgent Trump.
I don't know anything about all that, just that the video is pertinent.
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Sorry Jim, Georgie boy has no credibility other than that which he assigns himself. He believes himself to be such a pure conservative that he felt the need to support the communist democrat in the 2016 election rather than the insurgent Trump.
Huh?
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Yeah, I am suffering from the 'huh?' condition also. All over the place on this site.
Gettin' old sux Ron. It is Ron, right?
[soon enough I may not be making a joke when I do that]
Brian
Huh?
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Sorry Jim, Georgie boy has no credibility other than that which he assigns himself. He believes himself to be such a pure conservative that he felt the need to support the communist democrat in the 2016 election rather than the insurgent Trump.
Say what? You don't give up do you G?
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Are you saying the candidate was not a democrat?
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Gary, you included a quote from Max, and used my name...hence the huh?
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Yeah, that is it. Nice job Jim, and add to that I think the Georgie he was referring to is George Will and the knot is unraveled.
Not that it makes any difference but I do not remember Will supporting Ms. Clinton but only decided to NOT support Mr. Trump. He left the Republican part over it and now identifies as Independent, again IIRC.
But while all of this was getting kicked around in this thread, some anti- Confederate folks knocked down a Confederate statue in Durham, NC, while no one was looking.
http://www.nbc12.com/story/36134625/group-of-protesters-knock-down-confederate-statue-in-durham (http://www.nbc12.com/story/36134625/group-of-protesters-knock-down-confederate-statue-in-durham)
So after all of this serious talk, I have to point out a couple of things: 1) Law enforcement sprayed that statue with cooking spray to try and prevent protesters from getting a grip on it. Judging by the results, that ain't gonna' make any Pam commercials in the near future. :rotflmao: 2 times. and 2) Of all the people there, look who they chose to send up that ladder. ?? ?? ?? Not who I would have picked personally but hey.... Now that may show up on a ladder commercial at some point in the future, I can even imagine the tag- line: "When angry mobs need a ladder they can count on, those in Durham, NC, choose 'Blimpie' brand ladders 'cause they can really stand up to the abuse. And easily shed spills from things commonly found around ladders, such as anti- stick cooking spray. Blimpie, the clear choice in high load bearing, lubricant resistant ladders for unruly mobs everywhere'.
:-)
Brian
P.S. Mike, this is a clear example of what one cannot say in America any longer. In fact, I expect a large (hehehe) group of 'gravitationally challenged' people to be at my house tonight, waving pitchforks and torches and demanding "the insensitive one's" hide.
Gary, you included a quote from Max, and used my name...hence the huh?
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That's illegal and they should have been arrested and charged. All this does is make things worse.
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That's illegal and they should have been arrested and charged. All this does is make things worse.
or does it?
Gives the local administrations a good excuse to take any statute us down and put them in a rarely visited wing of a museum on the pretext they are preventing damage to a valuable work of art ;)
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well if the glove fits..........
P.S. Mike, this is a clear example of what one cannot say in America any longer. In fact, I expect a large (hehehe) group of 'gravitationally challenged' people to be at my house tonight, waving pitchforks and torches and demanding "the insensitive one's" hide.
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or does it?
Gives the local administrations a good excuse to take any statute us down and put them in a rarely visited wing of a museum on the pretext they are preventing damage to a valuable work of art ;)
And there isn't anything wrong with that as far as I'm concerned but this kind of vigilantism is wrong no matter what side you're on. There's ways to do things in this country and it's through process of law. There are Civil War memorials all over the state in each county in Virginia. I visit quite a few of those counties in my line of work. I can't say I've seen any memorializing any northern generals/officers/soldiers.
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Gary, you included a quote from Max, and used my name...hence the huh?
Thanks for the correction and my apologies for the inaccuracy.
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:)
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And there isn't anything wrong with that as far as I'm concerned but this kind of vigilantism is wrong no matter what side you're on. There's ways to do things in this country and it's through process of law. There are Civil War memorials all over the state in each county in Virginia. I visit quite a few of those counties in my line of work. I can't say I've seen any memorializing any northern generals/officers/soldiers.
Does the statue of Abe & his son in Richmond not count then ;)
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Not as far as my last statement they don't. Never seen them. However, I did say that I haven't seen any Northern Generals/officers/soldiers honored. President Lincoln and his son are neither of those... ;)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_Avenue
"[...]punctuated by statues memorializing Virginian Confederate participants of the Civil War [...] is listed on the National Register of Historic Places as a National Historic Landmark District [...] named one of the 10 Great Streets in the country."
And for those interested in some of other landmarks in the Old Dominion (Virginia is packed full of rich history): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Historic_Landmarks_in_Virginia
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Not as far as my last statement they don't. Never seen them. However, I did say that I haven't seen any Northern Generals/officers/soldiers honored. President Lincoln and his son are neither of those... ;)
But surely as President he was Supreme Comander ;)
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Maybe, but still a civilian..
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Yep, though the actual title is Commander in Chief (FDR would sign his notes to his generals / military staff with 'C in C' when he wanted to show he was not debating, he was instructing). The President of the US has sole, exclusive and virtually unlimited control over the armed forces, at least outside of nuclear weapons, so that puts him (so far him but it could be her) directly into the military structure, at least as far as I can tell.
No matter, the idea is identical anyway: the entire group of Confederate leaders, whether they are military or civilian, are revered in the South (generally, not by everyone with a ladder and a rope, obviously), not really followed much in the North, and the reverse is even more true; Northern leaders are generally reviled in the South. So in the end, that statue of Mr. Lincoln in Richmond, VA, is amazing. Not so much that it was put there but that it is STILL there. There must be a 24/7/365 watch on that thing or I would expect it to be in the bottom of that river long before now.
Just as an FYI: virtually all of the war was fought in the South (Gettysburg, PA, being a very unusual exception), so it was the Southern civilians and property that suffered along with the actual combatants. And it was a particularly harsh war, with a huge amount of 'retribution', cruelty had simple excess. The depth of the Southern hatred of Northerners can be summed up, at least it is for me, in a statement given to Gen. Joshua Chamberlain, US Army, by Gen. Wise, CSA, at the formal surrender as the Southerners surrendered their arms and battle flags: “You may forgive us but we won’t be forgiven. There is rancor in our hearts…which you little dream of. We hate you, sir.”
It has been over 150 years since the end of that war, although reconstruction lasted until 1877, and the entire civil rights era started in the late 1950's and raged for several decades. But there are still deep rifts, at least in attitude and thought, between the two sections of the country and I believe a true animosity to this day in the Southern states WRT the Northern people (the "Damn Yankees").
As a result of all of this yes, that statue is a real rarity. In fact, I did not know about it until your post and was amazed to see it when I looked.
Brian
But surely as President he was Supreme Comander ;)
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It is spreading.... clearly the civic leaders of many communities are now moving to remove Confederate statues in a clear effort to avoid protests and riots in their own cities.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/workers-remove-baltimore-confederate-monuments-overnight-105623389.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/workers-remove-baltimore-confederate-monuments-overnight-105623389.html)
Baltimore, MD, removed at least some of their statues of Confederates in the middle of the night, no doubt to be 'stealthy' and not attract attention by either side, although the pro- statue' people are the ones who would be cranky about this.
Brian
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We need to trim back Mt Rushmore.
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You mean just get rid of the Confederate presidents carved there?
Although, now that you mention it, two of those Presidents were slave holders, and a third one stole a number of colonies from the Spanish and made them US possessions (is that another word for colony?). We should probably stop looking pretty soon or we may find other American heroes with flaws and some bad behavior in their lives (say it isn't so!).
Brian
We need to trim back Mt Rushmore.
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Always a pleasure to be of assistance :)
As a result of all of this yes, that statue is a real rarity. In fact, I did not know about it until your post and was amazed to see it when I looked.
Brian
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:rotflmao: Yeah, right.
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Well, this whole issue is going nuclear, all across the South by the looks of things. Now it seems to be turning into a free- for- all for those who want to 'correct' all the 'wrongs' regarding statues everywhere.
Also saw this headline:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/charlottesville-target-alt-right-jewish-mayor-emerging-national-voice-120253532.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/charlottesville-target-alt-right-jewish-mayor-emerging-national-voice-120253532.html)
File that one under things that make ya' go 'huh'. Not quite sure how the mayor of that city got to be a hero by not doing anything about the riots in his city but instead blaming the leader of the Federal Gov't for [not] saying something that the mayor thinks he should have said. ?? What might be those magic words that would have altered the course of the events of last weekend one iota? "Stop it"? "Everybody go home"? It boggles the mind....
Anyway, I guess the new method is:
1) Everyone loves everyone.
2) If someone is [different, non- conforming, non mainstream, and 'not average'], they must be loved, both privately and publicly, even more.
3) Anyone who does not love everyone is hateful, horrible and must be savaged in all ways possible, up to and including those outside the law. Clearly, these people are not and cannot be part of the group including 'everyone'.
Special note here: at first, numbers 1 & 2 may not seem compatible with 3 but it must be understood that those who are in charge of determining who is to be hated are immune from rules 1 and 2, and in fact are even MORE lovable for dumping hatred, abuse and as much punishment as possible on those in group 3. Also, while some things such as The Constitution at first glance seem to support the rights of people in group 3 to believe, think, and even speak whatever they want, that is not correct. The Constitution only protects those speaking out AGAINST those in group 3.
4) All of these rules are retroactive and apply to all in the past.
5) All people are subject to instantaneous change from being of no consequence to category 3, from which there is no escape, end to any and all corrective actions needed to put them squarely and firmly into categories 1 or 2.
6) Once deemed to be in category 3, no person or group can ever escape from that category.
7) To paraphrase Eric Blair (as George Orwell), 'All people are equal, but really only those on the left are equal. Those anywhere else are despicable'.
Normally a moderate, all of this garbage is driving me further and further away from the center. Either that, of 'the center' is going further and further left, with a side- order of obnoxious prejudice and hatred for dessert. I have been thinking about moving toward the middle of the country (both physically as well as figuratively, they seem to meet-up) but now I am thinking about looking into moving to 1957 and going into the asbestos / mercury / lead paint distribution business.
Brian
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Well, this whole issue is going nuclear, all across the South by the looks of things. Now it seems to be turning into a free- for- all for those who want to 'correct' all the 'wrongs' regarding statues everywhere.
Also saw this headline:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/charlottesville-target-alt-right-jewish-mayor-emerging-national-voice-120253532.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/charlottesville-target-alt-right-jewish-mayor-emerging-national-voice-120253532.html)
File that one under things that make ya' go 'huh'. Not quite sure how the mayor of that city got to be a hero by not doing anything about the riots in his city but instead blaming the leader of the Federal Gov't for [not] saying something that the mayor thinks he should have said. ?? What might be those magic words that would have altered the course of the events of last weekend one iota? "Stop it"? "Everybody go home"? It boggles the mind....
Anyway, I guess the new method is:
1) Everyone loves everyone.
2) If someone is [different, non- conforming, non mainstream, and 'not average'], they must be loved, both privately and publicly, even more.
3) Anyone who does not love everyone is hateful, horrible and must be savaged in all ways possible, up to and including those outside the law. Clearly, these people are not and cannot be part of the group including 'everyone'.
Special note here: at first, numbers 1 & 2 may not seem compatible with 3 but it must be understood that those who are in charge of determining who is to be hated are immune from rules 1 and 2, and in fact are even MORE lovable for dumping hatred, abuse and as much punishment as possible on those in group 3. Also, while some things such as The Constitution at first glance seem to support the rights of people in group 3 to believe, think, and even speak whatever they want, that is not correct. The Constitution only protects those speaking out AGAINST those in group 3.
4) All of these rules are retroactive and apply to all in the past.
5) All people are subject to instantaneous change from being of no consequence to category 3, from which there is no escape, end to any and all corrective actions needed to put them squarely and firmly into categories 1 or 2.
6) Once deemed to be in category 3, no person or group can ever escape from that category.
7) To paraphrase Eric Blair (as George Orwell), 'All people are equal, but really only those on the left are equal. Those anywhere else are despicable'.
Normally a moderate, all of this garbage is driving me further and further away from the center. Either that, of 'the center' is going further and further left, with a side- order of obnoxious prejudice and hatred for dessert. I have been thinking about moving toward the middle of the country (both physically as well as figuratively, they seem to meet-up) but now I am thinking about looking into moving to 1957 and going into the asbestos / mercury / lead paint distribution business.
Brian
Amen
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No matter, the idea is identical anyway: the entire group of Confederate leaders, whether they are military or civilian, are revered in the South
That is just not correct. MOST people in "the South" couldn't give a rat's a** about the ancient Confederacy and certainly don't revere the military leaders.
(generally, not by everyone with a ladder and a rope, obviously), not really followed much in the North, and the reverse is even more true; Northern leaders are generally reviled in the South.
Also not true. Just another ancient and inaccurate stereotype. That's like saying everyone in "the West" is a raving, ultra-liberal socialist. Or everyone in "the North" loves child labor.
So in the end, that statue of Mr. Lincoln in Richmond, VA, is amazing. Not so much that it was put there but that it is STILL there. There must be a 24/7/365 watch on that thing or I would expect it to be in the bottom of that river long before now.
As I said, ancient and inaccurate stereotypes... Especially regarding Virginia, which is barely even "South".
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Amen
+2
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That is just not correct. MOST people in "the South" couldn't give a rat's a** about the ancient Confederacy and certainly don't revere the military leaders.
As I said, ancient and inaccurate stereotypes... Especially regarding Virginia, which is barely even "South".
Depends where you live, Max. You are in an area that we'll say is more cosmopolitan than the rest of the state. I've lived here since 1969 and I can tell you for a fact that most white Southerner's outside of the major metro areas in VA do give a rat's ass about the Confederacy and do revere those military leaders. If you take out Northern VA, Tidewater and parts of Richmond, the rest of the state is pro Confederacy and not by a little bit.
Just as an FYI: virtually all of the war was fought in the South (Gettysburg, PA, being a very unusual exception), so it was the Southern civilians and property that suffered along with the actual combatants. And it was a particularly harsh war, with a huge amount of 'retribution', cruelty had simple excess. The depth of the Southern hatred of Northerners can be summed up, at least it is for me, in a statement given to Gen. Joshua Chamberlain, US Army, by Gen. Wise, CSA, at the formal surrender as the Southerners surrendered their arms and battle flags: “You may forgive us but we won’t be forgiven. There is rancor in our hearts…which you little dream of. We hate you, sir.”
It has been over 150 years since the end of that war, although reconstruction lasted until 1877, and the entire civil rights era started in the late 1950's and raged for several decades. But there are still deep rifts, at least in attitude and thought, between the two sections of the country and I believe a true animosity to this day in the Southern states WRT the Northern people (the "Damn Yankees").
As a result of all of this yes, that statue is a real rarity. In fact, I did not know about it until your post and was amazed to see it when I looked.
Brian
And I can tell you for a fact that rancor is alive and well and is festering. While it may not be out in the open so much, it's still there. I can remember when we moved into Southside VA in 1969 distancing myself from the Northern folks as much as I could. My accent was my undoing. It was not southern. In fact, I had no accent as I grew up on AF bases. I did have an English accent at one time but that faded as I grew up over here.
I identify with the South as it's my home of choice these days. It's part of my DNA from my father's side.
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Depends where you live, Max. You are in an area that we'll say is more cosmopolitan than the rest of the state. I've lived here since 1969 and I can tell you for a fact that most white Southerner's outside of the major metro areas in VA do give a rat's ass about the Confederacy and do revere those military leaders. If you take out Northern VA, Tidewater and parts of Richmond, the rest of the state is pro Confederacy and not by a little bit.
I am not denying there are all kinds of people all over (nor will I discount your experience). But that was my point, one can't say "people in the 'South' believe 'XYZ'" or do "XYZ" because that implies 120 million people think or act the same, which is just so not true. By population numbers, for sure, I stand by my statement, especially for VA, that MOST (probably the overwhelming majority) of people here don't care anything about the Confederacy. Even most might want to preserve historic statues of all types (like me), but that is not being pro-Confederacy and certainly not pro-slavery. I lived in a non-urban area for 1/3 of my life, and in cities the rest, and it didn't seem that much different, nor when visiting other areas.
I will also add that the people who are caught up in such [pro-Confederacy] stuff, the majority of even that minority are not racist or think slavery was a good thing (as it seems some left-wing media want to contradict). It is a good time to point out, again, that in this riot situation, from my understanding, most of the protesters were not even Virginians.
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The societal divisions in this country are much wider than north/south, slavery/nazi ideas. These are the convenient tools at this time. The ultimate goal being the complete revision of history via the new Cultural Revolution. It is playing out in different ways in different parts of the country. We've just seen how the North/South conflict is going to progress. The Midwest has red state/blue city conflicts. The West and Southwest is a combination of pitting immigrant against citizen and citizen against the fedgov BLM. This is a fight for the soul of the country. Luck to us.
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I would be happy if we could just tell the truth, such as we are aware of it at this time.
My oldest son, he is 35, told me a few months ago that 'all humans are genetically identical'. Now that was an amazing statement in my opinion. And I told him so, and asked him why he would say that. He responded with a lot of words, all P.C., and a bunch of rhetoric that just did not apply. Anyway, when he was done, I asked him one question: if he and his wife (both of Western European descent as far as we know) were to have a child, would that child have a ~30% chance of being Caucasian (White), a ~30% change of being Mongoloid (Asian), and a ~40% change of being 'other'? He was so shocked he went silent. And the next words were ones of sheer amazement, telling me I was right and this was like a lightening bolt! Really? Yep, we have become so P.C. that we are now piling the B.S. on in dump-truck sized doses.
It is unfortunate that we cannot simply speak the truth. Things such as Chicago does not have a murder problem; the South Side of Chicago has a murder problem. But not, we must disguise even the simplest facts until they are an outright lie.
It gets worse from here. If I could find a 'truth group', I would join and pay almost any dues. And by that I really mean a 'TRUTH' group, not one supporting any particular ideas or views, merely ones who could see and state facts. But we are so hampered by our P.C. blinders that we cannot even see or state the real problems, never mind deal with them. Nope, we have to pretend that there is a huge crime problem in Chicago when in fact that is an outright lie and hampers any progress toward actually dealing with our social issues.
BTW- I am not picking on Chicago or the South Side of Chicago; I merely mention this area because it happens to be the murder capitol of the US at the moment (not Chicago, the other one mentioned, no matter how much people fib about it).
"I speak the truth not so much as I would, but as much as I dare, and I dare a little more as I grow older."
- Montaigne
If I live much longer, I ought to be hell on wheels, huh Max?
Brian
The societal divisions in this country are much wider than north/south, slavery/nazi ideas. These are the convenient tools at this time. The ultimate goal being the complete revision of history via the new Cultural Revolution. It is playing out in different ways in different parts of the country. We've just seen how the North/South conflict is going to progress. The Midwest has red state/blue city conflicts. The West and Southwest is a combination of pitting immigrant against citizen and citizen against the fedgov BLM. This is a fight for the soul of the country. Luck to us.
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Ahh, but what makes your truth better than my truth? Herein lies the problem and I'm afraid it is insurmountable.
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It is not 'my' truth and it is not 'your' truth, the truth is the truth. Facts are facts. Gravity is a positive force, always and without exception. Can you possibly spin that into anytihing else? Does a dropped hammer in your house hit the ceiling..... ever?
Fact: giraffes are taller than donkeys. Would you disagree? Would you suggest it may not be that way if only.... what, we looked at it differently? If we averaged the facts enough? When would a donkey become as tall as a giraffe?
Seriously, do you not believe there is a root, base- line truth in the universe? Are all things merely matters of opinion or 'slant'?
Do you see any Confederate statues being toppled by angry mobs in the northern US? Would you believe anyone who said that this is a situation spread evenly across the entire US? Seriously?
The truth is that this situation is occurring in the Southern states, specifically the Confederate states. Would you dispute that and say it was 'my' truth?
Brian
Ahh, but what makes your truth better than my truth? Herein lies the problem and I'm afraid it is insurmountable.
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Brian,I obviously missed conveying the irony in my last post. I do think you and I are pretty much on the same page.
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Brian,I obviously missed conveying the irony in my last post. I do think you and I are pretty much on the same page.
You forget to suffix the statement with any form of emoticon :p
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I'm waiting for this dispute to land on my doorstep. I live in Franklin, TN where the Confederacy suffered a major defeat.
Fourteen Confederate generals (six killed, seven wounded, and one captured) and 55 regimental commanders were casualties.
There's a statue of a Confederate soldier in the town square. Many men lost their lives in/around Franklin and I personally see no harm in having a monument to them. Not to glorify their cause, nor to condone slavery, but to acknowledge that a great and tragic event happened nearby. There is even an old house (the Cater House, which you can tour) that is riddled with bullet holes from the battle. The residents, which might include their slaves, hid in the basement while the battle raged. It too has been threatened, but why I can not fathom.
The question that we all must ask is, where do we stop? When does the cleansing become 'enough'?
Playing devil's advocate: Could white people protest and demand monuments to Martin Luther King Jr be torn down because he is a serial adulterer?
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Just prior to Charlotte riots
https://charlotte.craigslist.org/tfr/d/actors-and-photographers/6253305119.html (https://charlotte.craigslist.org/tfr/d/actors-and-photographers/6253305119.html)
CL charlotte >jobs >tv/film/video/radio reply x prohibited[?] Posted Posted 2017-08-07 1:33am
Actors and Photographers Wanted in Charlotte
compensation: $25+/hour
employment type: contract
Crowds on Demand, a Los Angeles-based Public Relations firm specializing in innovative events, is looking for enthusiastic actors and photographers in the Charlotte, NC area to participate in our events. Our events include everything from rallies to protests to corporate PR stunts to celebrity scenes. The biggest qualification is enthusiasm, a "can-do" spirit. Pay will vary by event but typically is $25+ per hour plus reimbursements for gas/parking/Uber/public transit.
For more information about us, please visit www.crowdsondemand.com (http://www.crowdsondemand.com)
If you're interested in working with us, please reply to this posting with the following info:
-Full Name
-Prior relevant experience (as an actor/performer, photographer, brand ambassador, political activist, etc)
-When are you usually available for work?
-Resume (optional)
-If you're a photographer, what equipment do you use?
-Are you ok with participating in peaceful protests (optional)
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
do NOT contact us with unsolicited services or offers
post id: 6253305119 posted: 10 days ago updated: 2 days ago email to friend ♥ best of [?]
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Yep, I missed the ironical part entirely. I thought you were on the Maxwagon.... you know, the one that says it ain't really like it is, even when it is exactly like it is.
:-)
As I said, my views do not fit in any nice little box.... I guess I am a staunch conservative, progressive (the T.R. kind of progressive, not a modern liberal) mixed in with some libertarian. And I am not at all pleased with us becoming so politically correct that we cannot even allude to any facts anymore. It really angers me that there are words we cannot even say, write and at least according to some think. Another example, in this current 'anti- Confederate' enviroment, is that private companies as well as individuals apparently cannot wear / own / display anything represnetative of that era. Again, a very important tennant of America is freedom of expression so if someone wants to fly a Confederate flag, wear a shirt with the Confederate flag on it, etc., etc. they can no longer do so due to intolerance. And it is those screaming tolerance that will not tolerate such displays so it is a two- fer' for me: one is people getting in the way of anyone's Constitutional rights and the second is the absolutely disgusting practice of the tolerant people being utterly intolerance. Of perhaps it is them being tolerant of that they like, and antagonistic toward that they do not like. It all makes me want to get a Confederate shirt.....
Brian
Brian,I obviously missed conveying the irony in my last post. I do think you and I are pretty much on the same page.
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I thought you were on the Maxwagon.... you know, the one that says it ain't really like it is, even when it is exactly like it is.
:-)
As I said, my views do not fit in any nice little box....
Or the Brianwagon, you know, that one that likes to put other people's views into nice little boxes (like old and inaccurate stereotypes) but not his own views?
Oh yeah, " :-) "
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This is the part in the TV series Fargo where someone would go 'aw gees'.
:-) but I really mean it.
In fact, I will buy you one of these if you want:
https://rednecknationstrong.com/collections/confederate-flag/products/ban-this-flag-cofederate-rnss-58
Just let me know your size. Notice that the sizes range from sm. to 4XL but not XSM or 2XSM..... If I were someone who put labels on people, things like this might make me think Rednecks are on the husky side. :rotflmao:
Brian
Or the Brianwagon, you know, that one that likes to put other people's views into nice little boxes (like old and inaccurate stereotypes) but not his own views?
Oh yeah, " :-) "
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Eeeeew, no thanks... I'll pass on that :)
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;D
Yeah, that one is kinda' confrontational. Probably best to start off with something a little more subtle.
My brother has a "Black guns matter" shirt he wears now and then. Kinda' funny watching peoples' reactions to that one 'cause they almost always miss- read it in the first glance. :-)
But I do think I will grab a couple of shirts with the Confederate flag on them just to show a little support for my Southern fellow citizens. While I am sure there are some bigots and probably distasteful people that support distasteful views, I firmly believe there are many more Southerners who are simply proud of the positive traditions and accomplishments of Southerners, both past as well as present but without the hatred or evil wishes for anyone. I was in the South for the 2014 COG rally in the very corner of TN, then traveled to N. Carolina to visit with my son in Charlottesville (sp?) (in NC, not VA where the recent rioting occurred) and was frankly quite surprised by the huge changes in the southern culture from many years ago when I was there (the South) last.
Anyway, this whole thing has been unfortunate IMO and there is no end in sight. I hope that some artifacts of the Confederacy can be saved and displayed in a way and in a place that does not offend any group of people. That may not be possible, and the very idea may not be workable; I only have my own view and really cannot relate to a statue of someone who died 100+ years ago threatening or demeaning me but then again, I have never been a member of a minority group and so cannot know how those folks feel.
Brian
Eeeeew, no thanks... I'll pass on that :)
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Just tripped over this:
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/robert-e-lee-thought-confederate-220734970.html (https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/robert-e-lee-thought-confederate-220734970.html)
Apparently, Robert E. Lee was opposed to monuments and statues erected depicting Civil War participants. Further, he was opposed to the Confederate flag after the war, and would not wear his uniform, again after the war. He was not buried in a CSA uniform and no mourners wore CSA uniforms at his request, though of course many were veterans of that was on the Confederate side.
This is all quite interesting I think and apparently his goal was exactly the same as a lot of people today; to do nothing that would give offense. Kind of amazing actually because I believe a LOT of the Confederate statues now giving offense to some are of the very man who did not want them, R.E. Lee.
Brian
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Well, if you read his own words, there is "at this time" in there. He knew that the monuments would cause strife. But I doubt he could imagine that 100 years later they still would be. And I think people fail to realize the Lee was a good man both before and after the civil war. He loved this country and tried hard to heal her wounds. His downfall was that he could not bring himself to bear arms against his home state of Virginia
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You mean just get rid of the Confederate presidents carved there?
Although, now that you mention it, two of those Presidents were slave holders, and a third one stole a number of colonies from the Spanish and made them US possessions (is that another word for colony?). We should probably stop looking pretty soon or we may find other American heroes with flaws and some bad behavior in their lives (say it isn't so!).
Brian
Talk about calling it.... https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9kkkby/lets-get-rid-of-mount-rushmore (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9kkkby/lets-get-rid-of-mount-rushmore)
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Believe me, had those writings been any ones other than Lee himself, I would not have bothered posting them. His honor and yet sensitivity to the situation may be a lesson that still applies; perhaps we (all Americans) should re- visit this whole issue and perhaps come to a somewhat different conclusion. As I have said previously, I believe Southerners have a right to be proud of their accomplishments and some of the true heroes the South has produced. But reading about Lee's attitude, perhaps it IS a mistake, even so much later in time, to cause the very type of harm he was concerned about to a segment of our current society by having those statues and monuments. Maybe it is not possible to separate the ideals and goals of the Confederacy from the accomplishments and honorable deeds of those participating in the Civil War?
This would not be an issue we would even be talking about if the answer were easy IMO.
Brian
Well, if you read his own words, there is "at this time" in there. He knew that the monuments would cause strife. But I doubt he could imagine that 100 years later they still would be. And I think people fail to realize the Lee was a good man both before and after the civil war. He loved this country and tried hard to heal her wounds. His downfall was that he could not bring himself to bear arms against his home state of Virginia
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This would not be an issue we would even be talking about if the answer were easy IMO.
Exactly, there is no easy answer with these situations. Other than, as a democracy, it should be settled by orderly and informed public hearings and voting and orderly procedures- be it leaving them be, moving them, discarding them, adding other statues or signs, whatever. Like many people, I can sympathize with all sides on the issue but it is something that each locality will need to deal with on their own. Not national media and not outsiders coming into localities stirring up riots.
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This country is not now, never has been, and never will be a 'democracy'.
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This country is not now, never has been, and never will be a 'democracy'.
Short for "representative democracy", but in cases like this, referendum is typically used, which is democracy.
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This country is not now, never has been, and never will be a 'democracy'.
As I recall from history/government classes in school, and perhaps I didn't pay close attention, but wasn't the country was set up as a "republic" with a democratic type of voting system?
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As I recall from history/government classes in school, and perhaps I didn't pay close attention, but wasn't the country was set up as a "republic" with a democratic type of voting system?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/11/14/the-united-states-is-both-a-republic-and-a-democracy-because-democracy-is-like-cash/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/11/14/the-united-states-is-both-a-republic-and-a-democracy-because-democracy-is-like-cash/)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy)
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The Washington Post??? Nothing from the New York Times???
Democracy is mob rule. See Charlotte for democracy in action.
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The Washington Post??? Nothing from the New York Times???
Democracy is mob rule. See Charlotte for democracy in action.
As I said earlier, most (including me) use the word "democracy" generically. Specifically, the USA, like most Western countries are representative democracies. A riot is not democracy because there are no rules of conduct and does not create legislation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
"Democracy [...] in modern usage, is a system of government in which the citizens exercise power directly or elect representatives from among themselves to form a governing body"
"According to political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: (a) A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; (b) The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; (c) Protection of the human rights of all citizens, and (d) A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens."
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Yes, that would be the most correct way I can think of, and the way in place to deal with all things here.
But in some cases, such as minorities being underprivileged, by deification (minority = smaller segment of society, so a smaller voting block) they could never have any vote result in a change desirable to them but not desirable to those not underprivileged; that is why Jim Crow lasted so long. So how do we address dissatisfaction of minorities?
As to what is happening now, that is not democracy either, in fact, it is not even legal or any allowed method available to us. It is basically 'mob rule', being backed up by what I would call 'Governance via social media'. Put another way, we now decide things based on how many FaceTwit 'likes' or 're- twits' or whatever it is that gets 'them asses' stirred up. Because our politicians, starting with the top politician in the entire country, are using / working through / deciding events and especially, terrified of having a social media frenzy turn against them (other than the top politician, who uses FaceTwit as a method of antagonism at 3:00 AM apparently), the law enforcement of the country has also been held in check while these mobs roam and perform whatever the current 'hot thing' is. Right at the moment, it is tearing down or permanently defacing statues of Confederates.
Democracy has never faced an assault anything like this one, and I am not sure it can withstand it. Then again, no one has ever had Democracy anyway (and for this discussion, Democracy and Republicanism are interchangeable, it is merely the way we would refer to a voter- led gov't with the finer details of each system not meaning anything). Worse yet, it strips off a protective layer that used to protect us from ourselves; while in theory anyone in the US could be elected to office, even high office (most of us here are viable to be President of the US I believe, there are only three simple qualifications), reality buffered those offices. To run for, say, US Senator, a person had to has enough clout and perceived ability to win to get any appreciable media coverage, and the entire structure (media, university speaking invitations, etc., etc.) were restricted by nature. So the system itself thinned the herd of available people down to some level of 'acceptable'. Now, we could have a game show host run, and possibly even win the Presidential election with no screening whatsoever by the older system of media and such..... hey, in fact,...... :-)
And that, my friends, is why magazine capacity has increased steadily in the last 100 years. And I ain't talkin' about the size of the rack in the bathroom. ;D And while I am not suggesting it, I am a bit surprised that some of this mob action is being tolerated by the OpFor in the citizenry all over the south. I would have thought at least a few of these 'statue raiders' would have met up with a group of other minded locals by now but it has not happened.
Brian
Exactly, there is no easy answer with these situations. Other than, as a democracy, it should be settled by orderly and informed public hearings and voting and orderly procedures- be it leaving them be, moving them, discarding them, adding other statues or signs, whatever. Like many people, I can sympathize with all sides on the issue but it is something that each locality will need to deal with on their own. Not national media and not outsiders coming into localities stirring up riots.
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I've been giving it some thought from a different perspective. If I were a Jew, I would be very offended to see swastikas and Nazi salutes. So you don't see that in Israel. Maybe taking the statues down, but leaving historic markers in place is the way to go. Remembering the past is one thing. Glorifying it is something entirely different. No doubt passions are running high on both sides, and there doesn't seem to be ANYONE in a leadership role who is calming the situation down. I dunno, I don't have a dog in the fight either way. as I said, there's a confederate soldier statue in my town, right in the roundabout on the square. I never give it a second glance, and no one else does either. But now with this increased hyper sensitivity, there's talk of taking it down. Not sure what would replace it, but I can't imagine the new display will be an improvement over what is there.
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This is an excellent post I think, because it shows the different views different people have of the identical thing. You say you never give a local Confederate statue a second glance.... but perhaps some do? And that right there is the key to understanding (not solving) the problem: what do various people think or feel when they see these things? Like you, I would not really be stirred at all, other than perhaps the first time (none here where I am so I would find them unusual, just like palm trees), when I might walk up and read the plaque. But perhaps a black person DOES see a link to oppression and racial hatred? When I think of R.E. Lee, I think of a great general, commanding one side of the most destructive and one of the most important wars in American history, not a slave- owner..... but I am not black and so cannot comment on what a black person might see looking at the identical image (or statute).
This article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/us/confederate-monuments-stonewall-jackson-lee-davis.html?mcubz=3 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/us/confederate-monuments-stonewall-jackson-lee-davis.html?mcubz=3)
Shows a very interesting perspective of the relatives of several Confederates who have had statues erected to them. Somewhat surprisingly, many support removing the statues, or in some instances, moving them to an place where they would cause less or no social irritation, to private property. And there are some areas, such as museums and privately held, previous estates of Confederate leaders who have volunteered to accept any / all statues or monuments possible to move to that location. Perhaps this is a viable solution; they would be available to the public but held in private hands, on private property and not in open display where the public has no choice but to see them?
Brian
I've been giving it some thought from a different perspective. If I were a Jew, I would be very offended to see swastikas and Nazi salutes. So you don't see that in Israel. Maybe taking the statues down, but leaving historic markers in place is the way to go. Remembering the past is one thing. Glorifying it is something entirely different. No doubt passions are running high on both sides, and there doesn't seem to be ANYONE in a leadership role who is calming the situation down. I dunno, I don't have a dog in the fight either way. as I said, there's a confederate soldier statue in my town, right in the roundabout on the square. I never give it a second glance, and no one else does either. But now with this increased hyper sensitivity, there's talk of taking it down. Not sure what would replace it, but I can't imagine the new display will be an improvement over what is there.
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Weren't most of the statues erected by Democrats?
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(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/cs.jpg)
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I do not know but I have little interest in what Democrats may erect anyway....
:-)
Brian
Weren't most of the statues erected by Democrats?
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Funny and the no- cost extra is that it looks like it might be [careful how you say this Brian, careful, careful] Mesoamericans doing the removin'. Maybe they are going to smuggle him over the border where he will become an 'undocumented immigrant' in another country.
;D
Saw the sig. line once that said: 'Calling an illegal alien and 'undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer and unlicensed pharmacist'. I believe you call them 'chemists' but the idea should cross the pond OK.
Brian
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/cs.jpg)
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Might brush up on your Nationalities. ;)
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you go to the chemists to speak to the pharmicist
go figure ;)
Typically though a CHemists refers to a high street outlet whilst pharmacies are typically found inside hospitals
Funny and the no- cost extra is that it looks like it might be [careful how you say this Brian, careful, careful] Mesoamericans doing the removin'. Maybe they are going to smuggle him over the border where he will become an 'undocumented immigrant' in another country.
;D
Saw the sig. line once that said: 'Calling an illegal alien and 'undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer and unlicensed pharmacist'. I believe you call them 'chemists' but the idea should cross the pond OK.
Brian
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Monica was very interested in what some Democrats were erecting ;)
I do not know but I have little interest in what Democrats may erect anyway....
:-)
Brian
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(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/cs.jpg)
This is hilarious to me. Just South of Nashville you can see this gem from I-65.
http://wkrn.com/2017/08/16/oak-hill-mayor-asks-haslam-to-obscure-forrest-statue-from-i-65/ (http://wkrn.com/2017/08/16/oak-hill-mayor-asks-haslam-to-obscure-forrest-statue-from-i-65/)
It is on private land so the city really can't do anything about. And it is butt ugly. The proprietor looks just like Colonel Saunders from KFC :finger_fing11:
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I assume you mean me?
Mesoamerican: peoples from Mesoamerica, a pre- Colombian region that now would include central Mexico down through the northern South American coast. I believe it would correctly refer to the descendants of those peoples still living in those areas as well as any other area. In the same way I am Western European although NOT born in Europe but America. Anyway, my best guess was that those two young folk taking Mr. Sanders for a walk are Mesoamerican.
But given the resolution of that photo, it is tough to tell and those two people may be Asian (notice how I did not use the now- incorrect word Oriental, which is apparently 'bad' although I have to look it up every single time because I cannot remember which one is bad and which one is OK.)
'Luke, ya' got ta' get ya' mind right.' To which he would respond (in 2017) 'takin' out the bad thoughts Boss' or 'puttin' in the good thoughts Boss'.
Brian
Might brush up on your Nationalities. ;)
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Yeah, and doctors practise in a practice or vice- versa, right. And accounts perform in a surgery I believe.
Man, you got a tough language there. I get in trouble here with language here and we do not have all those complexities. Imagine the hi jinks if check had a 'q' or color had a 'u'?
:-)
Brian
you go to the chemists to speak to the pharmicist
go figure ;)
Typically though a CHemists refers to a high street outlet whilst pharmacies are typically found inside hospitals
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(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/cs.jpg)
Thai workers carry a statue of Colonel Harland Sanders, founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) out onto the street one of the fast food restaurants in Bangkok, Thailand January 27, 2004. Vietnam announced the closing of 8 outlets in order to change to a fish based menu. An outbreak of Bird Flu has ravaged poultry farms and could devastate the country's chicken export sector which is the worl's fourth largest worth 1.5 billion dollars. The Bird Flu (also called Avian Flu) has claimed six victims in Vietnam and one in Thailand. The World Health organization ( W.H.O.) said there was no evidence of person-to-person spread of the virus.
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So how do we address dissatisfaction of minorities?
The Federal and State Constitutions (and in this case, it would be State). Those are the documents of principle that are supposed to keep the government in check and preserve the rights of everyone (minority or not). But nobody has the right to not be "offended." Yeesh.
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don't you mean high jinx ??
anyways a trunk is found on an elephant and a hood is something you wear on your head ;)
hmmm thinking about it a bonnet is also worn on the head and a boot is worn on your foot
Yeah, and doctors practise in a practice or vice- versa, right. And accounts perform in a surgery I believe.
Man, you got a tough language there. I get in trouble here with language here and we do not have all those complexities. Imagine the hi jinks if check had a 'q' or color had a 'u'?
:-)
Brian
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This is hilarious to me. Just South of Nashville you can see this gem from I-65. It is on private land so the city really can't do anything about. And it is butt ugly.
Well, they can plant trees or something on public land so it can't be seen from the Interstate. Nothing wrong with that. And yes, it is butt-ugly.
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Hey, while we are in this thread: do you have this ridiculously excessive politically correct garbage going on in England?
There did not seem to be much of any of it in Germany when I was there although the language was getting in the way for me to really get a pulse on that. Still, looking at an attractive woman, for example, would not get one arrested and saying 'Good morning Ladies' did not see to illicit screams of "We are not ladies, we are women!".
So, can you still call a wanker a wanker or it is now something like 'one who reciprocates'? All our terms are gone, and even thinking them gets us in trouble apparently. Though once in a while there is someone who graduated from the Archie Bunker school of conversation and the gems he comes out with will make anyone shake his / her head. And just about the time you recover from it he dishes up another one. Great guy, living in the past and in a very non- politically correct way, fun to listen to his antics. He is not a bad man and does no evil in the world that I know of so no harm done really.
Brian
don't you mean high jinx ??
anyways a trunk is found on an elephant and a hood is something you wear on your head ;)
hmmm thinking about it a bonnet is also worn on the head and a boot is worn on your foot
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OK, then I guess they are Asians.
And with that in mind, when I squint a little, that version of the Colonel looks just a little Asian too. Maybe that is their rendition of an American?
Brian
Thai workers carry a statue of Colonel Harland Sanders, founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) out onto the street one of the fast food restaurants in Bangkok, Thailand January 27, 2004. Vietnam announced the closing of 8 outlets in order to change to a fish based menu. An outbreak of Bird Flu has ravaged poultry farms and could devastate the country's chicken export sector which is the worl's fourth largest worth 1.5 billion dollars. The Bird Flu (also called Avian Flu) has claimed six victims in Vietnam and one in Thailand. The World Health organization ( W.H.O.) said there was no evidence of person-to-person spread of the virus.
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not that I've noticed, but then again I may be the wrong person to ask as several people in the office find it highly amusing when I swear on the phone whilst talking to many of my customers :)
(only the ones I've gotten to know well over the last 10 years I hasten to add. At the end of the day the B2B Telecoms world is very incestuous. Technically they 're my customers but they're not end users, those you speak differently too)
Hey, while we are in this thread: do you have this ridiculously excessive politically correct garbage going on in England?
There did not seem to be much of any of it in Germany when I was there although the language was getting in the way for me to really get a pulse on that. Still, looking at an attractive woman, for example, would not get one arrested and saying 'Good morning Ladies' did not see to illicit screams of "We are not ladies, we are women!".
So, can you still call a wanker a wanker or it is now something like 'one who reciprocates'? All our terms are gone, and even thinking them gets us in trouble apparently. Though once in a while there is someone who graduated from the Archie Bunker school of conversation and the gems he comes out with will make anyone shake his / her head. And just about the time you recover from it he dishes up another one. Great guy, living in the past and in a very non- politically correct way, fun to listen to his antics. He is not a bad man and does no evil in the world that I know of so no harm done really.
Brian
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Weren't most of the statues erected by Democrats?
Well, that's an interesting statement. In the south, they may have been erected by what we call Southern Democrats and bear no relation whatsoever to the Democratic party of today. Most of these SDs, switched over to the Republican side of things at some point. So while your statement is indeed correct but not in the way you probably intended it to be read. Side note, one of my relatives on my Dad's side was a Southern Democrat and served in the House and Senate from 1937 to 1979. Even ran for Vice President at one time.
I sometimes stop and read the inscriptions on those statues and memorials but as one poster stated, most times I don't give them a second glance.
In Virginia the Governor has no say for the most part in removing these monuments. It's either with the state Legislature and the local government officials. It's going to be interesting to see what happens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats
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Well, that's an interesting statement. In the south, they may have been erected by what we call Southern Democrats and bear no relation whatsoever to the Democratic party of today. Most of these SDs, switched over to the Republican side of things at some point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiprVX4os2Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiprVX4os2Y)
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Oh my... I checked and he stayed Democrat until he left the Senate.. This is making my head spin.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiprVX4os2Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiprVX4os2Y)
Some more of that 'inconvenient truth' stuff about the racist 'keep em' on the plantation' democrat party.
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Guys, let's be careful with this one. I don't want to move it to the Arena.
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I don't see a need for plural :)
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Are you immune?
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Are you immune?
No, just more careful :)
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Hey Jim, it is your relatives in the wrong party......
:rotflmao:
Yeah, this has been quite civil so far. Kinda' surprised myself, and actually expected it would be there by now. Kudos fellow delicate thread posters.
Brian
Guys, let's be careful with this one. I don't want to move it to the Arena.
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No, just more careful :)
I go you go. 8)
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Twits (plural). Neither one of you is going anywhere.