Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: B.D.F. on May 15, 2011, 11:03:33 AM
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There are eight screws used to hold the secondary 'flies in a C-14 and they can be pesky to remove. They are not overly tight but they do have a thread locking agent on them and if the screwdriver or driver bit is not shaped correctly it can be very difficult to remove those screws. Also, the incorrect screwdriver tends to mangle the screw heads making it difficult to remove them later even with the right screwdriver.
The correct tool is a JIS (Japan Industrial Standard) #2 and it is NOT a Philips #2. A Philips is absolutely the wrong tool. Philips drivers are actually made to cam out under heavy pressure while the JIS types do not do this. Philips drivers were designed to be used on automated assembly lines so that they would cam out and 'skip' if overdriven but that makes those fasteners very difficult to remove if they are tight.
A JIS driver works well in a Philips screw head (but not the other way around) so a lot of today’s drivers and bits are actually either made to the JIS standard or are very close. Unfortunately they are almost never marked 'JIS' or with any other name usually, just sold as #1, #2, etc. So if you look at bits, especially 1/4" hex drive bits, of a #2 cross- type design, a lot of them are actually suitable for use on the Japanese fasteners. The way to tell them apart is visually, a Philips head looks like this:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/phillipsl.gif)
While a JIS looks like this:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/JIS.gif)
It is easy to see why the Philips drivers cam out so easily (because of the large radii in the corners) and fit the JIS screws so badly.
The screws used on a C-14 to hold the brake and clutch reservoir covers on are also JIS #2. You can take out one of those screws and test- fit it to screwdrivers or hex bits before buying them; if the bit fits into the screwhead all the way to the bottom, and it does not wiggle around in there then it is a good enough fit to use on the secondary 'flies screws.
Brian
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Good info!
:thumbs:
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Learn something new everyday around here . . .
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+1 on the JIS screwdrivers.
I work for a japanese machine tool company, and they're a must have item in my tool box.
http://www.vesseltools.com/hand-tools/screwdrivers/view-all-products.html (http://www.vesseltools.com/hand-tools/screwdrivers/view-all-products.html)
These are the ones myself and most of my co-workers use.
Cheers
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Good info. Too bad they are nearly impossible to find stocked anywhere. I used a Phillips that I dressed with a file. Worked well on seven of eight screws...
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They are stocked almost everywhere but they are not tagged with the title 'JIS'. They are sold as a generic "2" so you have to look down at the cross- section of the driver or bit to see if there is a significant radius there. If there is a radius, it is a Philips bit; no radius or a very small radius means it functions as a JIS bit even though it may not be labeled that way. JIS bits work well in Philips screw heads and so are sold commonly.
Go someplace that sells 1/4" hex drive bits, such as Home Depot, Lowes, Sears, etc. and usually in a package of several bits, and look at the bits carefully. As I mentioned in the first post, you can also take one screw out of the clutch reservoir and test the bit in that screw head to see if it fits properly and all the way to the bottom without rocking. Both screws ('flies screws and reservoir screws) are JIS #2 heads.
Brian
Good info. Too bad they are nearly impossible to find stocked anywhere. I used a Phillips that I dressed with a file. Worked well on seven of eight screws...
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Good info. Too bad they are nearly impossible to find stocked anywhere. I used a Phillips that I dressed with a file. Worked well on seven of eight screws...
I got 7 of 8 also with jis driver.
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They are stocked almost everywhere but they are not tagged with the title 'JIS'. They are sold as a generic "2" so you have to look down at the cross- section of the driver or bit to see if there is a significant radius there. If there is a radius, it is a Philips bit; no radius or a very small radius means it functions as a JIS bit even though it may not be labeled that way. JIS bits work well in Philips screw heads and so are sold commonly.
Go someplace that sells 1/4" hex drive bits, such as Home Depot, Lowes, Sears, etc. and usually in a package of several bits, and look at the bits carefully. As I mentioned in the first post, you can also take one screw out of the clutch reservoir and test the bit in that screw head to see if it fits properly and all the way to the bottom without rocking. Both screws ('flies screws and reservoir screws) are JIS #2 heads.
Brian
I went to half a dozen places yesterday and they were all labeled as "Phillips". The bevels weren't all as pronounced, so I bought the one with the best tip and dressed it with a file to sharpen the flutes. I used heat as well, but got a bit off kilter on the last one and tore up the head. I had 20 minutes in the job to that point, the last screw took me anohter two hours to remove.
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I got 6 of them out with a #2 Phillips. Got 2 of them out using a combination of a dremel tool, #1 phillips, square drive bits, vice grips, half a dozen flat screwdrivers, and a magnet to collect all the screw dust. Don't need no special screwdriver. ;)
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Why don't you just get your ECU re-programmed so this sophisticated piece of hardware works as you require? www.DPTune.com (http://www.DPTune.com)
Not the best of articles but...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_length_intake_manifold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_length_intake_manifold)
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I don't understand how this can be called a variable length intake manifold when they have stacked two sets of butterflys in one tube. The second set, the one we remove, seems to choke a non variable length of tube at a different location at a different time than the main set. The intake tube length does not change only the amount and timing of airflow. This may be an over simplistic view but I'm a simple man not an engineer.
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I got 6 of them out with a #2 Phillips. Got 2 of them out using a combination of a dremel tool, #1 phillips, square drive bits, vice grips, half a dozen flat screwdrivers, and a magnet to collect all the screw dust. Don't need no special screwdriver. ;)
Haha, 5 of 8 for me with this method.
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It is not a variable length system. It is a fixed length system with two separate throttle plates.
Trying to use one plate to effectively alter the length of the induction tube won't work because as soon as the air is on the near side (nearest to the engine), it will spill around the plate and assume the same velocity as it would have had there been no plates behind it in the first place. Air has inertia but not much and there won't be any tube lengthening effect at low engine speeds. At high engine speeds and under full throttle, there is virtually no difference between having the 'flies installed and wide open and having the 'flies removed.
Brian
I don't understand how this can be called a variable length intake manifold when they have stacked two sets of butterflys in one tube. The second set, the one we remove, seems to choke a non variable length of tube at a different location at a different time than the main set. The intake tube length does not change only the amount and timing of airflow. This may be an over simplistic view but I'm a simple man not an engineer.
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i was real lucky. I ordered the JIS screwdriver and went at it this weekend. After I got the tank off took me about 5 mins to remove the screws. I was blown away at how easy it was. I didnt use any heat. It was a lot harder on my FZ1. Then I rode it and was completely blown away. I was shocked at how much more bottom end it had. Finally felt like a 1400cc bike. I was dissapointed when I got this bike compared to my FZ1 then I did this and feel completely in love with this bike.
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i was real lucky. I ordered the JIS screwdriver and went at it this weekend. After I got the tank off took me about 5 mins to remove the screws. I was blown away at how easy it was. I didnt use any heat. It was a lot harder on my FZ1. Then I rode it and was completely blown away. I was shocked at how much more bottom end it had. Finally felt like a 1400cc bike. I was dissapointed when I got this bike compared to my FZ1 then I did this and feel completely in love with this bike.
My experience was just the opposite. I got the flies out of my FZ1 in a couple minutes using a #1 Phillips and a little bit of heat. That's why I didn't pay any attention to people making a big deal out of the C14 screws until I got the tank off and realized they're not as accessible and the screws are a little different. Got them out though, and you're right, the bike feels a lot more like my FZ1 did. I still miss that mind-altering top end on the FZ though. And FedEx just dropped off my Power Commander about 30 minutes ago. :)
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After ordering a couple of the JIS screwdrivers, I started work with some trepidation.
I agonized over heating the screws or not, but decided to just try one cold, and see what happend.
I like to fly by the seat of my pants, to live dangerously, if you will.
Anyway, the first screw came out easily, so I kept going, working left to right.
Around screw five, there was some binding after several turns out, probably threadlocker, but the screw turned out with no problem.
The last screw, at the far right, I couldn't get a direct shot at the head, there was some angle.
This one turned out about half way, then bound up, and the head started to strip out.
I turned it back in, and out a few times. I applied a little more force, and .......................
SUCCESS, the screw came all of the way out!
It was a great day to be ME!
;D
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What length JIS #2 screwdriver is needed or recommended to perform the fly-ectomy?
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about 10 inches
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I bought a JIS screwdriver to remove mine; it was easy. I applied a bunch of downward pressure on the screw and gave it a quick twist to break the Loctite. The screws came right out afterwards, no heat or anything. It was harder removing the tank than removing the flies...
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Yep or even longer. I have a 12 incher (easy boys!) that works great in the application.
Brian
about 10 inches
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I think that really is the 'trick'- maintaining good down pressure on the bit while turning it. That is why I prefer a 1/4" drive hex bit used with a 1/4" socket, extensions and a ratchet; it is much easier to put steady down pressure on a ratchet head than a screwdriver handle in my opinion.
That does not mean ridiculous amounts of pressure either- some people have bent the throttle plate shaft inside the throttle bodies by using too much force and / or tapping the screwdriver with a hammer. "Tapping" on the screwdriver might be OK but remember, if the bike is bouncing on its suspension you are probably not really 'tapping'.
Brian
I bought a JIS screwdriver to remove mine; it was easy. I applied a bunch of downward pressure on the screw and gave it a quick twist to break the Loctite. The screws came right out afterwards, no heat or anything. It was harder removing the tank than removing the flies...
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After ordering a couple of the JIS screwdrivers, I started work with some trepidation.
I agonized over heating the screws or not, but decided to just try one cold, and see what happend.
I like to fly by the seat of my pants, to live dangerously, if you will.
Anyway, the first screw came out easily, so I kept going, working left to right.
Around screw five, there was some binding after several turns out, probably threadlocker, but the screw turned out with no problem.
The last screw, at the far right, I couldn't get a direct shot at the head, there was some angle.
This one turned out about half way, then bound up, and the head started to strip out.
I turned it back in, and out a few times. I applied a little more force, and .......................
SUCCESS, the screw came all of the way out!
It was a great day to be ME!
;D
Bout scared me there.....
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It is not a variable length system. It is a fixed length system with two separate throttle plates.
Trying to use one plate to effectively alter the length of the induction tube won't work because as soon as the air is on the near side (nearest to the engine), it will spill around the plate and assume the same velocity as it would have had there been no plates behind it in the first place. Air has inertia but not much and there won't be any tube lengthening effect at low engine speeds. At high engine speeds and under full throttle, there is virtually no difference between having the 'flies installed and wide open and having the 'flies removed.
Brian
Helmholtz resonance ?? Maybe someone should ask KHI :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_%28automotive%29#Variable_length_intake_manifold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_%28automotive%29#Variable_length_intake_manifold)
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In my opinion, secondary throttle plates in a fixed location, in a fixed venturi will not induce sufficient Helmholz resonance changes to make any measurable difference.
It seems that no engine manufacturers can make variable, tuned intakes without changing the shape and almost always, if not in every single case, the intake runner length.
All the way back to a C-14, I do not believe partially open secondary throttle plates can increase power compared with the same power plant that has simply had the secondaries removed. Of course as a reasonable person I remain open to any data that shows an increase in power with the single change of partially closing the secondaries on a C-14 but until that time it is my opinion that that will not work based on my understanding of the induction physics involved and the fact that no other manufacturer or race engine builders seem to use this method to increase power.
Brian
Helmholtz resonance ?? Maybe someone should ask KHI :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_%28automotive%29#Variable_length_intake_manifold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_%28automotive%29#Variable_length_intake_manifold)
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Hi Andy
The purpose of the secondary throttles is primaraly to smooth out airflow to stop bogging then surging when the throttle is opened sharply, and to generally give a smoother power delivery.
They are also used to reduce power under certain circumstances, such as traction control operation or gearchanging.
On the 1400s the secondary throttle shaft also has a cam on one end which can open the main throttle and is used as a fast idle device for cold starts.
I know that owners of the early bikes removed them as the 2006 model had their operation set to make power delivery smooth and docile below 5000 rpm.
Removing the secondary throttle can lead to a coarser power delivery and less driveability.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Steve Haswell
KMUK Customer Service
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:shoot: We Yanks have been known to be a little coarse in our power delivery anyway. :cannon:
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:shoot: We Yanks have been known to be a little coarse in our power delivery anyway. :cannon:
Indeed.....
:)
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Last night I took the Connie out for the first time since removing the secondaries. Didn't make a big difference in power, but it is considerably smoother with much less herky-jerky at part throttle. Crisper response as well. Shortened pipe and K&N air filter are the only other mods.
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Last night I took the Connie out for the first time since removing the secondaries. Didn't make a big difference in power, but it is considerably smoother with much less herky-jerky at part throttle. Crisper response as well. Shortened pipe and K&N air filter are the only other mods.
Gonna take more tuning than that.