Author Topic: Uneven tire wear question  (Read 13873 times)

Son of Pappy

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2013, 06:34:12 PM »
max, we've been telling you to dump the stones.
And that large hoover hanging on the right side :o

Offline maxtog

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2013, 09:45:25 PM »
max, we've been telling you to dump the stones.

I know, I know.  But I *hate* people touching the bike plus I have been waiting for them to wear out (expensive!)  They are getting close now and are sure to be replaced sometime in 2014.  The PR4GT's are looking interesting.

Also on my list:  Ghul flash, install the throttle tamer sitting on my bench, possibly buy an MRA X-Screen extension.  I am also overdue for the next service interval (lots of tightening/checking + oils/filter).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline pistole

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2013, 09:54:44 PM »
max , you still have the stock B'stones on your bike ?

amazing.

.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2013, 04:09:33 AM »
I never had any trouble with mine...
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Offline Boomer

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2013, 04:50:52 AM »
I have the same on mine only the wear is on the right (we drive on the left here).
It's because you take left bends faster than right ones. Oh wait, you ride freeways most of the time.
In that case put more weight in the ride sidebag to even up the wear.  ;D
Besides, that tyre is shot, even in the middle.

George "Boomer" Garratt
Wickford, UK


Offline wally_games

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2013, 09:36:21 AM »
My two cents worth:

At an intersection (in the US), when you take a left hand turn, the arc length is longer and you tend to accelerate harder than in a tighter right hand turn. Thus, increased tired wear. Notice that the wear point roughly equals your cornering lean angle. The more "in town" driving you do and the more aggressively you ride, the worse the disparity. It's not simply about the distance traveled around the curve, but includes the throttle action when taking that corner.

I challenge anyone to show me roads with an approximate 30-degree (plus) crown that they drive on for a SIGNIFICANT percentage of their miles. Without measuring photographs, that appears to be about the angle shown on the tire wear. Aren't the most heavily crowned roads probably closer to 15-degrees, give or take? If you're spending that much time on that drastic of a crown, you need to look for another route. It might even be a strain to ride on that much angle for very long.

Just my simple logic opinion. Thank for watching and you may now resume your normal activities.  8)
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2013, 11:43:13 AM »

I do agree that road crown makes a difference..........

2. 
If you take the same road curve in both directions the left turn is a bigger arc (radius) than the right turn, in the US.  You go faster in larger radius turn than a smaller radius turn and it's harder on tires.  You apex at a higher rate of speed if the curve radius is larger, all other factors being equal.

My two cents worth:

At an intersection (in the US), when you take a left hand turn, the arc length is longer and you tend to accelerate harder than in a tighter right hand turn. Thus, increased tired wear. Notice that the wear point roughly equals your cornering lean angle. The more "in town" driving you do and the more aggressively you ride, the worse the disparity. It's not simply about the distance traveled around the curve, but includes the throttle action when taking that corner.

I challenge anyone to show me roads with an approximate 30-degree (plus) crown that they drive on for a SIGNIFICANT percentage of their miles. Without measuring photographs, that appears to be about the angle shown on the tire wear. Aren't the most heavily crowned roads probably closer to 15-degrees, give or take? If you're spending that much time on that drastic of a crown, you need to look for another route. It might even be a strain to ride on that much angle for very long.

Just my simple logic opinion. Thank for watching and you may now resume your normal activities.  8)

When I sat down and laid out the road radii vs distance travelled, and put it into a chart, clearly showing that distance travelled does not jive out with wear seen, it seems to me that I wasted my time. You cannot dispute the numbers. This leaves only the addition of crown into the equation, ...did you guys actually look at those numbers I printed??????????? The largest diferences in distance travelled (percentage wise) occured on in town streets, likely at an intersection where there is a traffic light.... acceleration around a 10-15mph turn in traffic ain't an issue, and is not what wears the tire out....at least on my bike. Ymmv.

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Son of Pappy

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2013, 12:36:36 PM »
When I sat down and laid out the road radii vs distance travelled, and put it into a chart, clearly showing that distance travelled does not jive out with wear seen, it seems to me that I wasted my time. You cannot dispute the numbers. This leaves only the addition of crown into the equation, ...did you guys actually look at those numbers I printed??????????? The largest diferences in distance travelled (percentage wise) occured on in town streets, likely at an intersection where there is a traffic light.... acceleration around a 10-15mph turn in traffic ain't an issue, and is not what wears the tire out....at least on my bike. Ymmv.
Another .02 here.  Perception vs reality.  We all know what we know, until we learn otherwise.  The more I study (and apply), the more I learn.  The more I deal with students, the more I learn about perception and how it is sold as factual information.  I'm still working on how to deliver reality in a manner that can be swallowed without sounding like an ass or know it all (I wish I did, but I know I don't).  There are many factors involved with angles, yes, roads are not crowned at %30, but factor in laden weight, tire temperature, air pressure, tire flex, and degree of road crown.  Doesn't take long and you have the tire wear as described by the OP.
Road engineers have a point a to point b objective with the goal of as direct a route as possible.  In the end, generally speaking, rights and lefts equal out. 

Offline datsaxman@hotmail.com

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2013, 12:44:07 PM »
From post by spatten (and SOP):
**with a few comments**

There are two things that I believe create more left side wear when sport riding:

1. It's harder to turn and accelerate aggressively when you have your weight on the throttle hand.  This would be along a continuum for different skills or aggressiveness.  It takes much more skill to work the throttle well when turning right.  The exception is racers with really strong stomach muscles and grip with their legs, and not too many of us fall in that camp.

**WTF...Either I am highly skilled and zen-like in the corners...or this is just not so. REALLY?
     Or it's the monster abs thing.  Seriously, I concentrated on this on the way up the hill last night.
     Dark, road nearly empty, 20 miles of winding and climbing goodness.  I found that I have NO
     TROUBLE AT ALL cornering with just fingertips on the bars.  Literally.  Both directions, variety of
     speeds, cambers, road surfaces, etc.  No arm wrestling, no ab pump, no problem.  It seemed to
     be completely symmetrical.  Seemed.  Me.  One trial.  I just don't buy it.**
** Oh, and dragging the pegs often, on recently new Pirelli Angels, 55 on the back.  Bags, no top
     box, 210# plus gear, using both upward lanes.  Yes, I was hauling pretty good.  For a fat guy.**

2.
Quote

    Late Apex is a late Apex, regardless of direction.  Riding on the road I hold outside to the point I can see my exit point/line.

    Still sticking with road crown ;D

**This if from SOP.  I have to agree on the apex thing.  Straight, if possible, until I can see the exit.
     At least trailing the throttle and cautious until I can see all the way through the corner.  (SOP is
     the first rider I have met in a long time who has longer time on the road without a crash, BTW.)
     Not only good on tires, good defensive technique all around. **



If you take the same road curve in both directions the left turn is a bigger arc (radius) than the right turn, in the US.  You go faster in larger radius turn than a smaller radius turn and it's harder on tires.  You apex at a higher rate of speed if the curve radius is larger, all other factors being equal.

** HERE is the reason for this long-winded post.  Velocity IS NOT harder on tires.  Physics Fail. 
     ACCELERATION (equivalently, FORCE) is harder on tires. 

Physics lesson: Acceleration is a VECTOR (amount AND direction), so we can think of it as being
     divided up into two components: 1) acceleration that changes speed; 2) acceleration that
     changes direction.  1) points directly in the direction of motion right then...2) points directly
     toward the center of the circle you are rotating around.  Yes, at any instant there is such a
     circle, and this is how physicists and engineers think of cornering accelerations/forces.

(Force is just F = ma, where m = mass of the object, and a = the acceleration.  So you see why F
     and a are talking about the variables, and m is just constant, so it doesn't change as you ride.
     Much.)

So there are two parts to the acceleration here, a(1) that changes speed, and wears out the
     center of the tire mostly...and a(2) that changes direction, and wears out the sides of the tires.

SOOOOO...Acceleration (2) is just about cornering, and is calculated:  a(2) = v*v/R.
     a(2) = velocity squared divided by the radius of that circle.

Velocity, by itself does not matter much.  The radius of the circle matter just as much.

MOB, distance differential chart was interesting...but distance only matters if the a(2) values are
     the same through all corners.  NOT SO, I think.  That is much harder to quantify with a chart. 
     Pavement surface matters a lot too. 


I have no answers to the crown thing, only questions...but 30 DEGREES is more crown than I have
     ever seen.


 saxman
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Offline spatten

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2013, 12:51:06 PM »
Quote
When I sat down and laid out the road radii vs distance travelled, and put it into a chart, clearly showing that distance travelled does not jive out with wear seen, it seems to me that I wasted my time.

Like Wally said, it's not the distance travelled, it's the tire wear at higher speeds.  Left turns are more aggressive because you have a bigger radius than the same turn going the other direction. Higher speed turns burn up tires faster, ask a racer.

If you've ever walked the 20 degree high banks at Daytona you'd know it's extreme, almost hard to climb.  The searches I did online show road crown is generally less than 3%.   That's not what you guys are looking on these tires. unless you are looking at just the center wear strip being slightly off center.

Offline datsaxman@hotmail.com

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2013, 01:03:55 PM »
spatten,

Large radius makes the acceleration, thus the force, thus the wear, LESS.

That fact was the whole point of the physics lesson.  a(2) = v*v/R .

That R in the denominator means that a larger R makes the stress on the tires LESS. 
The fact that you are usually going faster (the v*v in the numerator) makes the stress GREATER.
But you cannot expect to ignore one of the factors.  And you have it backwards about the radius anyway.


saxman
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161.5RWHP on the dyno
Formerly Silverdammit!

Offline spatten

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2013, 01:47:58 PM »
Quote
Large radius makes the acceleration, thus the force, thus the wear, LESS.
Quote

Ummm, I think if the right hand tends to twist harder in a larger radius turn it may not be factored in your equation.

 

Offline wally_games

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2013, 02:55:01 PM »
I will fully admit to not taking the time to read through the calculations. I expect the formulas and the math are correct.

I'm not going to argue the formulas, IF you assume the same speed and lean through each curve. My point is that we do not take sharp right hand turns at the same speed as the larger radius left hand turns. I contend that we also lean further in those same left hand turns.

Also (using purely hypothetical values for illustrative purposes only since I do not have the actuals at hand), a ten foot radius right hand turn is just short of 80' long. A thirty foot radius left hand turn is over 700' long. That's spending nine times as long leaned over at that angle AND at higher speed. Even if we assume the radius of the right hand turn is only twice as long in the left hand turn, the distance traveled is still four times as far.

You can now tell me I'm still full of hooey if you like, but even if the stresses on the tires are fairly equal in both corners, being under that stress for four-plus times as long would still likely result in increased tire wear.

And again, I cannot recall ever seeing a road crowned steaply enough to explain having that tire wear so far off center.

Questions: Does the same wear exist to a lesser degree on the right hand side? If so, is it also closer to the center of the tire?
'14 BMW 1200 GSw (red, what little there is that's not grey)
'11 Concours ABS (black) w/ Leo Vince carbon, heated Corbin, Garmin; TechSpec pads (gone but not forgotten)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2013, 03:02:22 PM »
This is quite the thread.  We need to send it to MythBusters for them to test :)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 05:30:54 AM by maxtog »
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Offline wally_games

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2013, 03:07:31 PM »
This is quite the thread.  We need to sent it to MythBusters for them to test :)

+1
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Offline Boomer

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2013, 02:16:55 AM »
This is quite the thread.  We need to sent it to MythBusters for them to test :)
+2

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2013, 01:01:21 PM »
I will fully admit to not taking the time to read through the calculations. I expect the formulas and the math are correct.

I'm not going to argue the formulas, IF you assume the same speed and lean through each curve. My point is that we do not take sharp right hand turns at the same speed as the larger radius left hand turns. I contend that we also lean further in those same left hand turns.

Also (using purely hypothetical values for illustrative purposes only since I do not have the actuals at hand), a ten foot radius right hand turn is just short of 80' long. A thirty foot radius left hand turn is over 700' long. That's spending nine times as long leaned over at that angle AND at higher speed. Even if we assume the radius of the right hand turn is only twice as long in the left hand turn, the distance traveled is still four times as far.
..

  ::) ??? ;) ;) your math ain't working.... distance travelled along a 90* of any radius is :   (Pi x d) /4
10ft radius = 20 ft diameter. 3.1417 x 20 = 62.83 ft circumference... divided by 4 = 15.71 ft of travel....
30ft radius = 60ft diameter.  3.1417 x 60 ft = 188.5 ft circumference.... divided by 4 = 47.125 ft of travel along that line

circumference, divided by 4.

a 700ft distance "travelled" along a 90* turn, worked backwards, is an actual radius of 891.237 ft, or a diameter of 1782.47 ft.....
for every 50 ft of distance forward (Y axis), you are only moving 1.78 ft sideways (X axis)....21-1/2 inches...
Based on 10 ft wide lanes, (20 ft wide road) you would see the left side of the road for 116 ft, also still see the centerline of that road @ 232 ft, and the right hand of the road @ 280 ft
that's pretty much a straight section of road..... ;D

based on hypothetical 2 lane roads, with 10 foot lanes, and centerline radii of various dimensions,
the following will show distance traveled riding 4 ft off the centerline (to either side, left lane or right lane) compared to riding the exact edge
of the road both right, and left hand turns
rad@centerline-----4ft off C/Rt----4ft off C/Lft------- % diff---- R edge----L edge-------% diff
------60ft-------------87.9 ft----------106.5 ft-----14.3%--- 78.5 ft-----110 ft------40.12%
-----100ft------------150.8 ft---------163.4 ft-----8.4%---- 141.4ft-----172.8ft----22.2%
-----150ft------------229.3 ft----------241.9 ft----5.5%---- 219.9 ft----251.3ft----14.3%
-----200ft------------307.9 ft----------320.4 ft----4.1%---- 298.5 ft----329.9ft----10.5%


additionally;
if a 20 ft wide 2 lane road has a conservative crown of 6 inches higher @ the centerline than the edge, the resultant tangent angle of contact in the middle of a lane will be 4*, and @ 2-1/2 ft from the edge, will be 5* along the radius of the crown.
Tire wear patterns (grooving of the surface) on that road surface (from heavy traffic) of 3/4" to 1" caused by the left tire of a heavy truck or constant usage of said road, can double these figures easily in the actual road angles resultant.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 01:45:25 PM by MAN OF BLUES »

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Son of Pappy

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2013, 01:24:21 PM »
Don't need no stinkin Mythbusters, we got MOBuster ;D

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2013, 01:51:31 PM »
I just kinda' skimmed through this thread and all I can say is man, am I glad my tires wear pretty even! All this side- tire wearing looks pretty scary, especially the math and charts.

 :rotflmao:

I wonder if those who have tires wear on one side could take them off and remount (easy boys!) them in the other direction about half- way through the tire's life?

Brian
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Offline gPink

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Re: Uneven tire wear question
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2013, 02:00:05 PM »
I just kinda' skimmed through this thread and all I can say is man, am I glad my tires wear pretty even! All this side- tire wearing looks pretty scary, especially the math and charts.

 :rotflmao:

I wonder if those who have tires wear on one side could take them off and remount (easy boys!) them in the other direction about half- way through the tire's life?

Brian
Perfect opportunity to swap brake pads around too.