More ethanol in gas this summer

[m in sc]

ok. for the last time. they aren't switching new pumps to e15 widely, if at all. apparently there's an issue with reading the article this was all referenced from listed by the OP. they have been making/selling 15 for a LONG time.

If you think its the president, why did the last one do the exact same thing in 2017? please explain that one.

[Strawboss]

refer to my post about opinions. I just hope corn on the cob don't go up in price.

[m in sc]

that happened. its a non debatable fact.  Also there's 1 million barrels of crude being released per day here currently from the strategic reserve. also a fact, its happening, which caused the price of crude oil to drop 5% in one day.

 IF that agenda  indeed was the purpose of this, stations would 1st be required to quit selling non ethanol. That isn't happening either. so.. the logic of the 'blame' doesn't suss out. 

[BruceR]

ok. for the last time. they aren't switching new pumps to e15 widely, if at all. apparently there's an issue with reading the article this was all referenced from listed by the OP. they have been making/selling 15 for a LONG time.

If you think its the president, why did the last one do the exact same thing in 2017? please explain that one.

I'm not sure about 2017, but THIS round of pushing E15 is specifically being done to reduce gasoline prices.  It's not the corn lobby, although anyone farming corn right now is probably happy.  THis is an administration realizing high gas prices and higher inflation is bad politically and costly to their party in the midterms.  I'm sure a GOP administration in the same situation would try something similar.

[maxtog]

I'm not sure about 2017, but THIS round of pushing E15 is specifically being done to reduce gasoline prices.  It's not the corn lobby, although anyone farming corn right now is probably happy.  THis is an administration realizing high gas prices and higher inflation is bad politically and costly to their party in the midterms.  I'm sure a GOP administration in the same situation would try something similar.

I don't think this would be happening if the GOP was the administration.  It is, of course debatable.  Also, to the extent of us being in the situation, the price of corn will also go up because we import fertilizer from them (on top of the rampant inflation).  So even if it were not a tiny number of stations selling E15, it wouldn't probably matter, anyway.  I know I haven't seen any station where I live selling E15.  But there are almost none in this area selling E0, either.  I would guess 99% E10.

I checked the Concours manual again, just to confirm what I thought:  "Gasoline/Alcohol Blends - Gasoline
containing up to 10% ethanol (alcohol produced from agricultural products such as corn), also known as “gasohol” is approved for use."  "Never use “gasohol” with more than 10% ethanol"  Sounds pretty clear.  Would E15 cause any real problem with occasional use, especially if used up pretty quickly and not stored a long time?  Maybe not?

Also on the topic, it says "When not operating your Kawasaki for 30 to 60 days, mix a fuel stabilizer (such as STA-BIL) with the gasoline in the fuel tank."  30 days sounds a bit silly.  And it is pretty rare I ever go 60 days with the same tank of gas in the bike.

But yes, if it had happened under the GOP, indeed they would probably do the same thing.  Yet the strategic stockpile won't last very long (something like 90 days of replacement of what is imported).

[VirginiaJim]

Ok, guys.  I like this thread and don't want to send it to the arena.  Enough with the politics please.

[VirginiaJim]

https://greenbuildingelements.com/fuel-for-thought-is-e15-gasoline-harmful-to-your-car/


Max, I use the gas buddy app to find E15.  I seek it out especially if it's less expensive than 87.  Not a whole lot of places carry it that I've found.

[m in sc]

sorry, not 2017, 2019.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=40095

but in 17:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=31832

[DC Concours]

Good info. I didn't know IA produced so much ethanol. I thought CA did because their farms feed most of America.

[BruceR]

Good info. I didn't know IA produced so much ethanol. I thought CA did because their farms feed most of America.

I think Iowa and Illinois are 1-2 for corn production.  California grows other things.  Where I grew up the corn is now processed into alcohol- used for everything BUT drinking.  But my hometown smells like a distillery since ADM converted to alcohol production.  When I was young Fleischman's (and later Nabisco) made sweeteners there.  Back then it smelled like cotton candy.

[DC Concours]

While we are on the topic of gasoline...does anyone know if car knock sensors are really effective and quick to slow the timing to protect the engine?

[maxtog]

While we are on the topic of gasoline...does anyone know if car knock sensors are really effective and quick to slow the timing to protect the engine?

From what I am told, yes.  (I am sure it varies by model/year/design).

But the addition of alcohol in gas actually INCREASES octane, making pre-detonation less likely.  So I doubt using gasahol would have an effect of increasing knock.  Most of the negatives are due to corrosion and moisture collection.

Also, despite popular myth, the higher the octane, the LOWER the energy potential in an engine not designed to use higher octane.  One should use the correct octane based on the design of the engine (which is based on the design compression ratio).  There is really nothing "premium" about "premium gas", it is just higher octane.  It is not "better", just different.  Using it in an engine designed for lower octane results in poorer power, poorer fuel economy, and a waste of money.  Generally the only exception is when the engine has horrible deposits and is in poor condition where using a higher octane than requested can help prevent knock.  But this is rarely a problem in any modern car because gas additives are just so much better at preventing the deposits that cause knock.

Using a lower octane than the manufacturer requires is also bad, because the higher compression will create knock, which can damage the engine (if not arrested by anti-knock engine technology which tries to change the timing to deal with the improper fuel).  And, again, this results in loss of power and efficiency, and wastes money.

So the rule is:  use the correct octane gas stated by your user's manual for the engine in question.

[DC Concours]

I have this inline 6 cyl Mercedes from the 90s that says "Premium Only" and I want to try regular because premium around here is more than 1.75/gal over regular. My friends use regular and theirs says the same thing too. No ill effects though. I just can't get myself to do it. A couple of $$ is not worth a broken engine.

But am I just throwing money away here?

From what I am told, yes.  (I am sure it varies by model/year/design).

...

Using a lower octane than the manufacturer requires is also bad, because the higher compression will create knock, which can damage the engine (if not arrested by anti-knock engine technology which tries to change the timing to deal with the improper fuel).  And, again, this results in loss of power and efficiency, and wastes money.

[VirginiaJim]

Sell the Mercedes if you can't afford the correct gas to put in it.  You'll wind up ruining it.  You can try 89 instead but if it calls for premium there's a reason for it.

[DC Concours]

That's what I say. Don't buy a car you cannot maintain.

It's paid off and not worth much like my C10.

Sell the Mercedes if you can't afford the correct gas to put in it.  You'll wind up ruining it.  You can try 89 instead but if it calls for premium there's a reason for it.

[maxtog]

Sell the Mercedes if you can't afford the correct gas to put in it.  You'll wind up ruining it.  You can try 89 instead but if it calls for premium there's a reason for it.

It is just like people putting low or mid octane in the Concours.  Yes, if you are not pushing it and the temps are low, it might be OK most of the time (or maybe all the time in those conditions).  But with VVT, the compression will go up at higher RPM and also with the higher temps- it needs higher octane to prevent preignition.  I don't think it is worth the gamble that could lead to engine damage.  From what I understand, the Concours does *NOT* have a knock sensor.

Get your high-octane gas at Costco or Sam's or BJ's where they don't rip you off.  The difference in price there between low and high octane is minimal.  And since it only holds 6gal (and I get something like 45MPG) so it isn't going to break anyone. 

[VirginiaJim]

The gas buddy app will tell you the cheapest sources for premium.  Around where I live, Murphy's has the lowest premium.

[m in sc]

same reason you decrease the timing curve in HP 2 strokes at higher rpm, which seems counter intuitive, the dynamic compression actually goes up the higher it revs. rule of thumb is anything op near 11:1 needs 91-93 minimally. anything under that can usually be tuned not to knock on 87.  there's a really good episode of engine masters where they run different octanes including ethanol on a dyno and analyze the numbers. its eye opening. (if you have motortrend). worth a look.