Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: oldsmoboat on January 14, 2015, 04:09:09 PM
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Are there any specific mods or tweaks that give a noticeable improvement in low RPM power?
I am sure my bike is like everyone else's and doesn't get on the band till about 6k RPM.
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The Two Minute Mod.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=249.msg1924#msg1924 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=249.msg1924#msg1924)
We used to have a very long thread about this, but due to forum issues that thread is now gone.
And of course, if you want the full treatment:
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/ (https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/)
This links to Steve In Sunny Florida's site, where he offers new cams, jets, 7th gear mod (re-gears the bike, drops your RPM's about 12%). Plus he is a master at Connie carb rebuilds. This makes a nice excuse to throw in the jets which enhance the 'two minute mod' very nicely.
I've been interested in the cam grind he came up with for a while now...
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Are there any specific mods or tweaks that give a noticeable improvement in low RPM power?
I am sure my bike is like everyone else's and doesn't get on the band till about 6k RPM.
Are you sure you want the answer, because you can't build power without changes, and changes cost money :o.
Here it is in a nutshell... Low rpm power without changing the displacement is only going to be achieved by maximizing cylinder filling at lower rpms. This is primarily going to be done by changing cam timing, and reducing overlap. Also, the ports on out heads are actually to large for most efficient low end power production, so efforts have to be made to increase flow speed and prevent fuel from separating while in emulsion. Increasing mean effective cylinder pressure at lower rpms is THE only way you're going to make strides in moving the power to a lower, ore useable rpm area.
Basically what I just said in laymans terms is to get as much well mixed air and fuel into the cylinder as you can at low rpms, and then trap it there for a more powerful explosion.
There are "cheats" you can use, like advancing the ignition timing, but This does nothing to improve cylinder filling at any rpm. Everything in an engine works off a give and take scenario. IMO, based on my experiences, advancing the cam timing may somewhat sharpen the low rpm throttle response, but at the risk of over advance in the 3500 to 4000 rpm range, and at any time WOT is employed. Any time you have excessive advance you're going to make less power not more, so I personally don't employ advance as I haven't seen it actually do any good over the broad rpm range. JMO, Steve
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I like this the best!! :thumbs: :thumbs:
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/replacement-torque-cams
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:o
Thanks for the info. Not looking to drag race, bike is just a pig off the line then turns into the tasmanian devil at 6k. :D
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You misunderstood. Drag racing would require increasing the high rpm capability of the engine. Bigger cams, more duration. My cams go the other way, to make more torque, right where you asked for it, below 6k.
For some reason when anyone says "cams" the automatic response is to think "drag racing high rpm". This is something I'm working hard to overcome. IMO, the stock cams are already to big. Steve
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Are you sure you want the answer, because you can't build power without changes, and changes cost money :o.
Here it is in a nutshell... Low rpm power without changing the displacement is only going to be achieved by maximizing cylinder filling at lower rpms. This is primarily going to be done by changing cam timing, and reducing overlap. Also, the ports on out heads are actually to large for most efficient low end power production, so efforts have to be made to increase flow speed and prevent fuel from separating while in emulsion. Increasing mean effective cylinder pressure at lower rpms is THE only way you're going to make strides in moving the power to a lower, ore useable rpm area.
Basically what I just said in laymans terms is to get as much well mixed air and fuel into the cylinder as you can at low rpms, and then trap it there for a more powerful explosion.
There are "cheats" you can use, like advancing the ignition timing, but This does nothing to improve cylinder filling at any rpm. Everything in an engine works off a give and take scenario. IMO, based on my experiences, advancing the cam timing may somewhat sharpen the low rpm throttle response, but at the risk of over advance in the 3500 to 4000 rpm range, and at any time WOT is employed. Any time you have excessive advance you're going to make less power not more, so I personally don't employ advance as I haven't seen it actually do any good over the broad rpm range. JMO, Steve
Steve knows what he is talking about. I played with cam timing in my SCCA days by slotting the bolt holes in the cam sprocket and making various shims to shift a widely hogged out keyway. Everything you do affects something else. Even the valve lash affects the valve timing. The learning curve is long and hard, I recomment doing whatever Steve tells you.
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I have always liked the ideal of riding a bike like it likes to be ridden. If it does not make power at low RPMs, don't try to ride it at low RPMs. This engine was designed and manufactured to spin, keep the RPMs up and it will be happy and keep you happy. Try to ride it like a V twin and you will not be pleased.
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Ah, thank you Roadhound, you sum it up so well. I think the Concours thrives on open, curvy roads, and is champing at the bit in traffic going to pick up a quart of milk. That's why I bought it and it still thrills me.
A friend has a Suzuki VL1500 and it has all the low speed torque that anyone would want. He likes it, but it's not for me.
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I have always liked the ideal of riding a bike like it likes to be ridden. If it does not make power at low RPMs, don't try to ride it at low RPMs. This engine was designed and manufactured to spin, keep the RPMs up and it will be happy and keep you happy. Try to ride it like a V twin and you will not be pleased.
+1. I find if I try to forget that the bike has more than three gears when playing on a twisty road, it makes the ride much better. Fourth is for when the road gets boring, Fifth and Sixth are for the highway.
I don't always follow that, but I have a huge grin on my face when I do.
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I guess the difference is that I can change stuff to suit my likings, so I'm not stuck with a bike that doesn't fit me the way I want it to. This is in ergo's or performance.
BTW, if any of y'all have ridden a bike with my cams in it, you'ld find it superior in the twisties. Power on tap at any rpm, and increased compression braking. Nothing but better than stock. Steve
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One great way to get more power out of your connie is to add 4. C10 + 4 = C14 Just saying... ;D
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If you have ridden a bike with Steve's carb and cam mods, you know what a difference it makes. Folks that think the C10 "comes alive" in the upper rpm ranges do not realize the reasons for this. The stock C10 runs like crap in standard set up until you hit around 5K, where things start to come together. This gives the illusion that there is something wonderful about the upper rpm range. What you are really experiencing is lousy performance up until you hit the sweet spot.
The carb and cam mods tend to level out the performance and make it far more linear throughout the range. Don't take my word for it, do a roll on with someone that has the mods and see for yourself.
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haha. you forgot one tiny variable in your equation...
C10 + 4 + [$10000]
One great way to get more power out of your connie is to add 4. C10 + 4 = C14 Just saying... ;D
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haha. you forgot one tiny variable in your equation...
C10 + 4 + [$10000]
Still cheaper than a Beamer though...
;D
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Ok here's the low down for fantastic low end performance:
1. Install Steve's 2MM jet kit (and be sure your air box is sealed up good)
2. Install Steve's torque cams
3. Ok project complete !!!
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Ok here's the low down for fantastic low end performance:
1. Install Steve's 2MM jet kit (and be sure your air box is sealed up good)
2. Install Steve's torque cams
3. Ok project complete !!!
10-4 good buddy. :thumbs: :thumbs:
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Question for those of you that have been using Steve's cams for a while, how are they working out r.e. the pitting issue?
For those not in the know, the stock Kawi cams tend to develop pits/cavities in the cam surfaces over time. Usually this isn't a big issue (it looks worse than it is) but once those pits become significant, then it could become a friction/wear problem for the lifter arm surfaces and such..
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Question for those of you that have been using Steve's cams for a while, how are they working out r.e. the pitting issue?
For those not in the know, the stock Kawi cams tend to develop pits/cavities in the cam surfaces over time. Usually this isn't a big issue (it looks worse than it is) but once those pits become significant, then it could become a friction/wear problem for the lifter arm surfaces and such..
The torque cams that I installed had more than 60,000 miles on them at the last valve check. The cams are still perfect. I'm glad that I got talked into them.
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I've been running Steve's cam and sprocket for over two years now, no issues. Though in fairness, cam pitting is subjective, and more/less dependent on mileage. Note I had cam pitting (intake) on Sam around 80k miles, intake and rockers replaced with OEM. I now have over 170k on the clock.
For those on the fence about increasing low end torque, get the cam kit. My riding is primarily mountain (read: twisties) and city, the increase in torque is quite noticeable at mid RPM's. I don't have to down shift near as often.
As to straight line drag racing, install nitrous.
Rick
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I have been running Steve"s torque cams and jet kit for the last 2 years and it has been flawless. Easy starts, better acceleration, and great fuel mileage.
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haha. you forgot one tiny variable in your equation...
C10 + 4 + [$10000]
A miner detail ;D
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Just saw this thread......C14
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[/quote/]
My C14 was $1800 more expensive than my C10. All the grumpy C10 riders think the C14 is for rich people, but that isn't the case!
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Don't know what to tell ya. You either got screwed, or the C14 was a total POS or perhaps your C10 used gold for electrical wires. :P
And we don't think you all are necessarily rich people, you all are just not too smart with your money. That generally precludes wealth accumulation. :o
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Don't know what to tell ya. You either got screwed, or the C14 was a total POS or perhaps your C10 used gold for electrical wires. :P
And we don't think you all are necessarily rich people, you all are just not too smart with your money. That generally precludes wealth accumulation. :o
yeah, look at what we pay to belong to this forum. :)
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Cheapest C14 here in the Netherlands (second hand) = around E 8000,-
Cheapest C10 = around E1000/1500,-
Most expensive C14 (second hand) = E 14/15000,-
Most expensive C10 = max 2500,-
That's a completely different class of things! :P
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to the OP - I don't know if you've watched any of my video's, here's on particularly addressing your question - Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LZ4WbgiihI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LZ4WbgiihI)
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to the OP - I don't know if you've watched any of my video's, here's on particularly addressing your question - Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LZ4WbgiihI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LZ4WbgiihI)
I've watched some of them. Thanks.
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When the OP described what everything happened above 6k rpm, I wondered if this engine has been fitted with cams from a GPZ or ZZR?
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When the OP described what everything happened above 6k rpm, I wondered if this engine has been fitted with cams from a GPZ or ZZR?
I bought it used. The only mods were a fork brace and the fuel gauge mod.
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When the OP described what everything happened above 6k rpm, I wondered if this engine has been fitted with cams from a GPZ or ZZR?
I dunnow... In stock form, the C-10 is pretty benign below 6k RPM. Above 6k RPM, best to hang on... regardless of cam.
Rick
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I dunnow... In stock form, the C-10 is pretty benign below 6k RPM. Above 6k RPM, best to hang on... regardless of cam.
Rick
Looks like I may have the 'opportunity' to acquire some of Steve's cams. Waiting to hear back from the shop tomorrow.
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Don't know what to tell ya. You either got screwed, or the C14 was a total POS or perhaps your C10 used gold for electrical wires. :P
And we don't think you all are necessarily rich people, you all are just not too smart with your money. That generally precludes wealth accumulation. :o
I sold my 2006 C10 that had a bunch of nice mods for $4000 (what I paid for it a year before). I paid $5800 for my 2008 C14 with a few mods. They both had the same mileage. But I feel pretty good about the whole deal, because the C14 feels like twice the bike that the C10 is. The C14 brakes are light-years better, the chassis doesn't turn into a pretzel when you start riding at higher speeds, the fueling is always perfect at every altitude, and the C14 pulls harder at 5,000 rpm than the C10 does at it's power peak. Oh yeah, it can't hydrolock, either.
The C10 was really the good at what is was designed for nearly thirty years ago. But technology has advanced a lot in those twenty nine years. Instead of feeling like I spent too much on the C14, I feel like I wasted $4000 on the C10, because I spent it on a thirty year-old bike.
You are right about me not being rich, but are wrong about not being smart with my money.
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Listen to Steve. I have his torque cams, complete two minute mod, and cam sprocket, and my bike is a beast. Of course I have a few other minor adjustments but that is the meat in the sandwich.
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Jim, are you running a 4 into one these days?
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Jim, are you running a 4 into one these days?
Obviously I'm not Jim, but i'm here and he's not (yet) so I can tell you yes, he's running the one he built with the ontario pipe a few years back. i've ridden his bike and it's the best running stock bore concours I've ever ridden - period.
I actually mimicked his pipe a few years back, but I moved the crossover in front of the center stand, and had to reduce the pipe diameter to do so. I would consider it a failure. It knocked the torque out of the bike, in fact i lost about 5-6# around 6000. It did show a very flat torque curve though, no dip like the stock pipe. Jims' pipe has the same table top flat torque curve, but makes great torque. It is the only pipe I've seen that actually works to make more power. My 4-2-1 pipes allows my bike to retain the center stand, but really doesn't make and more power than stock. Jim's the man for c-10 exhaust work! Steve
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Jim, are you running a 4 into one these days?
Ok I'm here. Yes still running the 4 into 1. can't seem to give up that awesome sound coming from the single Delkevic muffler. Still wanting to get a new dyno run now that I have Steve's torque cams. Anxious to see what changes it made when combined with my pipe.