Author Topic: A&R Motorsports HID kit input  (Read 47808 times)

Offline C1xRider

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #120 on: October 09, 2012, 07:36:03 PM »

Yep, I remember that Rob. The odd thing is it hasn't done that since then, I kept checking it for about a month or so and never did it again... Odd indeed but seems to have been a one time thing...  ??? :-\

Hmm, maybe it's a 'break in' thing...  As I recall, you didn't have many miles on them at that point.
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Offline ZG

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #121 on: October 09, 2012, 07:43:06 PM »
Hmm, maybe it's a 'break in' thing...  As I recall, you didn't have many miles on them at that point.

True, I think that might have been right after I got em, which is what pissed me off for that brief moment.
 
All good ever since then though, I am very happy with em and recommend them to all!  :thumbs: :thumbs:

Offline C1xRider

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #122 on: October 09, 2012, 07:45:28 PM »
Ah, that is what is called a 'hot re-strike' and that can be a problem too. Short technical explanation follows:

As an HID lamp is truly an arc lamp, there must be a high enough voltage to initiate the arc. Once started, about 85 volts will maintain it but it requires upwards of 20,000 volts to start or strike the original arc. The small glass envelope that contains the arc has metal salts inside it (they look like brown sand when the bulb is cold) and once heated, they turn to gas and produce the huge amounts of light that HIDs put out and also cause the arc to the be color that it is. However, when those salts are hot and gasified, the electrical resistance inside the envelope goes up, making it harder to strike the arc in the first place. So shutting HIDs off and then restarting them while they are still hot (the 'hot re-strike') is the situation that takes the most voltage from the ballast. That is where some of the Chinese ballasts may fall down occasionally- not so much the ballast itself but the actual igniter (which is the part that provides the extremely high strike voltage). If that happens, all the while the light is off it is cooling down so the next restrike occurs at a lower (bulb) temperature when it will probably work. Hence the seemingly erratic behavior. You can help it along by making sure all the electrical connections are tight and not bound too tightly to any grounded surface (the arc will just as happily jump out of the cable through the insulation as across the HID's internal electrodes).

If it continues to be a problem, I would suggest contacting the store where you got them and as about getting a new ballast and igniter or even everything on that side of the bike in the event it is a bulb with unusual hot resistance causing the problem. If it is only very occasional, I would just ignore it and re-start the bike and the lights when it does happen.

By the way, speaking of the high starting voltage: be careful with handling HIDs and powering them up. They are not particularly dangerous IMO but unlike the original 12 volt wiring on the bike, you cannot be entirely cavalier with the wires, connections, and especially any open connections because that starting voltage is perfectly happy jumping out of the connector and into your hand(s) if there is not a complete connection.

As to your question of anything bad happening to the ballast if the HID fails to strike- nope, they are designed with that in mind so it is not a problem. Also, it is inevitable that vehicle lighting will be damaged and so it is expected that a ballast will try to ignite a lamp that is no longer there or not connected (front end damage from a vehicle accident is the most likely cause) so there are a set number of times that ballast will try to ignite the lamp and then shut itself down until the ballast itself is powered down and back up. This all happens in less than one second so there is no danger of the ballast overheating or similar. This is a case where the 'good' OEM ballasts are inferior in a way to the aftermarket things- after a certain number of tries (five I think), Hellas are designed to open an internal fuse and shut down permanently. Once that happens, the ballast will never power up again- it is a safety feature to deal with auto damage. Unfortunately the only way to fix it is by buying a new ballast and Hella ballasts are not $25 / pair  :-(   

Brian

Thanks Brian.  Good info.

As for the start up and restart of the C14, I watched this morning when I started the bike, and the lights don't ignite until releasing the starter button.  Thinking back to the halogens, this was also the case.

I also remembered bumping the starter button against my tank bag a few times (long before installing the HID lights) while the bike was running, and it turned off the headlights while the starter button was pressed (doesn't activate the starter though, thank goodness).  If one light doesn't fire, that should do the trick to "restart" it.

Do you know if HID lights are subject to the same or similar restrictions of on / off / on time as other gas based bulbs?  Just thinking ahead, if one light doesn't fire and the other does, will it shorten the bulb life of the one that's on by just restarting them both?  I know sodium based bulbs need 5 to 10 minutes to cool down before turning them back on.
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Offline C1xRider

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #123 on: October 09, 2012, 07:46:02 PM »

True, I think that might have been right after I got em, which is what pissed me off for that brief moment.
 
All good ever since then though, I am very happy with em and recommend them to all!  :thumbs: :thumbs:

Hopefully it's just a one time thing for me too.   :)
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Offline ZG

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #124 on: October 09, 2012, 08:06:23 PM »
Hmmmm... You know, I just thought of something, not sure if it could have been the issue or not but I'll throw it out there...
 
When mine did do that the one time Rob it was when we stopped for gas, at that time I hadn't moved my radar to an unswitched power and therefore everytime I turned the bike off it would flash the H.A.R.D LED light for my radar detector in my eye unless I powered it down, so back then I would often just hit the kill switch on the bike but not turn the bike off, then I'd flip the kill switch back and start the bike back up, that way I didn't have to take the one second to turn off then back on my H.A.R.D LED light...
 
Could that have been anything to do with it??  :-\ 
I no longer have my radar setup that way and now always fully shut the bike off to gas up, so maybe that's why it hasn't done it again??  ??? 

Offline C1xRider

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #125 on: October 09, 2012, 08:25:13 PM »
Hmmmm... You know, I just thought of something, not sure if it could have been the issue or not but I'll throw it out there...
 
When mine did do that the one time Rob it was when we stopped for gas, at that time I hadn't moved my radar to an unswitched power and therefore everytime I turned the bike off it would flash the H.A.R.D LED light for my radar detector in my eye unless I powered it down, so back then I would often just hit the kill switch on the bike but not turn the bike off, then I'd flip the kill switch back and start the bike back up, that way I didn't have to take the one second to turn off then back on my H.A.R.D LED light...
 
Could that have been anything to do with it??  :-\ 
I no longer have my radar setup that way and now always fully shut the bike off to gas up, so maybe that's why it hasn't done it again??  ??? 

Doesn't seem like it should matter, but I'm certainly no expert - yet.


Funny story : Riding home last night, a guy coming towards me in a lifted Toyota 4x4 with a push bar on the front and big driving lights mounted to it decided my low beams were too bright.  Now I've been carefully watching every car I go by to see how much light I'm spraying them with, and they don't get "sprayed" until just as they are passing me.  Also, no one has flashed me yet, and there have been plenty of opportunities.

Anyway, this guy in the Toy flips on his brights and his driving lights, and leaves them on.  So, I switched to brights, which also turns on the four 3100 lumen driving lights, and waited.  I could see the entire inside of his cab was lit up, including his head.  He was turning his head slightly away while still trying to look forward, but finally after a few more seconds, gave up and turned off his brights and driving lights.  I waited another second, then turned mine off.  After we passed, I had to proclaim "I win!"    8)
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Offline Bugnut

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #126 on: October 10, 2012, 07:40:39 PM »
Hey all in the convo. Thought I'd ake a moment to pass on my experience with my A&Rs.

- Originally I had an issue with the single light only coming on. This was finally cured after a ballast replacement, additional trigger relay to start the balasts at key on, AND (what I think really does it) waiting 10 seconds AFTER key on to hit the start button. This gives the arc time to fully ignite and there is no electrical competion for power to the ballasts. So far, since January, no issues since "discovering" the start up method. A&R folks are really willing to help out. Which brings me to...

- Second issue was that one bulb backed out of the housing on a ride and proceded to melt the bulb housing plastic. That caused some nice smoke trails and other interesting smells during the ride and eventually that evening I had to disconect the bulb and tuck it away for the remainder of my 2 day ride home. Once there a quick phone call and an e-mail and A&R had a new one in the mail and in my hands in 2 days. Back in place and just as good as ever. Granted my reflector is a little smokey inside, but I can live with that untill I follow BDF in poping them open.

Lightwise, these things are awesome. Along with my LED lights at the forks and under the mirrors, I have no qualms with night riding. They just work well and give me the confidence to be out at night and see the things out there that might be bad for me. And the plus factor is they help cagers see me. Not as much as the LEDs  ;), but still assist in the overall conspicuity issue. I'm seen quite well.

Mike
"Now I know what the Klingons felt like when the Enterprise was at warp 9 with photon torpedoes firing away as they blasted past. There is no way I could catch up to, much less get past that Concours when it's on the hunt it's lights at full power."

Offline r2t2

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #127 on: October 10, 2012, 10:32:36 PM »
Like Brian said, we would have to see patterns on a garage door to know anything useful, AND a picture like you had, but on low beam and without any other lights on (like you would be riding with other traffic around).

So far it doesn't seem like any modification to the shroud is going to be a good idea based on what I have seen so far.

Why do I have this déjà vu feeling???  :o
RayK
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Offline JS_racer

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #128 on: October 11, 2012, 05:03:15 AM »
couple questions from me here.
first, low beam only, cornering at night, my guess is the pattern is close to stock being narrow and quite vertical ??
second, flash to pass, does this still work well ?? any issues with it ??
third, what kind of life, longevity are people seeing from this setup?? had some + bulbs that didn't last long and after a few sets of them I'm back to me oe stockers i took out. most of my riding is day, very little at night. reliability is important to me.

thanks much for the time

(first point is key for me to fix, its like all the light goes away)

Offline maxtog

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #129 on: October 11, 2012, 02:44:15 PM »
couple questions from me here. first, low beam only, cornering at night, my guess is the pattern is close to stock being narrow and quite vertical ??

Yep.  The reflectors dictate most of the pattern, and that will not change.

Quote
second, flash to pass, does this still work well ?? any issues with it ??

That works exactly the same, probably even better because it is absolutely INSTANT- there is no waiting for a different filament to heat up.  You touch the button and the solenoids move the bulbs to high-beam nearly instantaneously.

Quote
third, what kind of life, longevity

Can't address that, since these are new.  But they are SUPPOSED to be much more reliable and long-lasting than halogen.  There are more parts to fail, however.   Instead of just bulbs, done; you have bulbs, solenoids, igniters, ballasts, and relay.

Quote
(first point is key for me to fix, its like all the light goes away)

Interestingly, there is ZERO change to the lamp holders.  So, theoretically, if one of your lights stops working, you can carry a spare halogen and just pop it right in there- total time about 1 or 2 min.  Of course, you would still need to troubleshoot/repair the HID, but you would have both lights again until you have time to deal with it and/or get the replacement parts.
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Offline just gone

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #130 on: October 11, 2012, 03:48:34 PM »
That works exactly the same, probably even better because it is absolutely INSTANT- there is no waiting for a different filament to heat up.  You touch the button and the solenoids move the bulbs to high-beam nearly instantaneously.

The flash to pass with stock bulb lights both the low beam and the high beam filaments at the same time; on the HIDs, since there is only one arc, it goes to high beam position while the flash button is depressed. As max' says it's very fast, and quite effective if you're quick of thumb.
Yep.  The reflectors dictate most of the pattern, and that will not change.

Not to worry, as soon as Brian finishes up the projector lights to his satisfaction, I'm sure he is going to tackle this
problem BMW style, and come up with a gimbal mounted light/mirror attached to a gyro servo that we'll all be able to
mod.....or maybe I'm just hoping out loud?  ;D

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #131 on: October 11, 2012, 04:34:03 PM »
Yeah but I warned you right up front- "Short technical explanation follows:" so you should have stopped reading before you hurt yourself....  From now on I will give a much shorter, easier to understand explanation (Trog say it be magic), along with a much longer warning.

:-)

Brian

                         


                                        ;D

That was a lot to read, but very enlightening. Get it enlightening   :rotflmao:
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #132 on: October 11, 2012, 04:55:57 PM »
Yeah, if the starter button does not engage the starter when the engine is running (I believe you, I just never tried it :-) ) then it should work OK for re-starting HIDs. As far as 'hot starting' goes....

WARNING POISON DANGER CAUTION HAZARD
Technical discussion follows! Rules of physics may be employed! Rules of nature always employed! 

There, that ought to scare 'em (you know who you are) away.

Auto HIDs are the only HIDs that I know of that have a hot re-strike capability. The others in use for area lighting simply cannot build the voltage necessary to re-start the arc when the arc tube is hot.... which is why we see mercury vapor, metal halide, sodium types all do what they do- they turn off but the arc tube continues to glow for a while until it cools down sufficiently and the ballast then attempts a re- strike. Auto HIDs must re-strike when hot for the obvious reason; they are also required to come to some minimum amount of light output in a specific amount of time whether hot or cold (75% light output w/in two seconds comes to mind but I really do not remember).

As the arc tube ages, the color temperature of the light output shifts (toward the blue), the light output goes down, and the voltage required to maintain the arc goes up. The increasing voltage requirement is usually what shows end- of- life for the lamp: they will cold start and seem to work for a while but the required running voltage (dozens to hundreds of volts, not thousands) gets high enough that the ballast cannot supply it and so shuts down. At that point the lamp goes into a cool down and restart mode which is why we see things like street lights go on, run for a bit, go <mostly> off and wind down to fully off and then relight. If these bulbs must maintain light output the usual way to do it is to use two arc tubes and ballasts w/in one light package so when one quits the other one strikes and produces light. That would not work for automotive lighting for two reasons, the first obvious one is the warm- up time (going down the highway WHEN SUDDENLY an arc tube goes dark and the second one strikes and builds up light output. The second reason is because headlights are focused and the second arc tube could not be in the right place. There is a method to deal with that too in that a mechanism to rotate the new arc tube into position and then ignite it when the first one goes out but that just would not do for automotive lighting.

There is also a disadvantage in hot restriking an arc lamp in that it shortens the lamp's life. When the arc contacts are hot and the ballast blasts a lot of current across them it tends to vaporize a bit of the arc contacts. So a hot restart is hard on the arc tube contacts also. Some folks seem to be quite concerned about it and won't re-light an HID on a vehicle until some amount of time passes by. I figure those are the folks who measure the oil in the crankcases with an eye dropper but it probably is a good idea :-)  I just use my headlights when I need them and I figure I'll replace them when (if) they wear out.

Brian


Thanks Brian.  Good info.

As for the start up and restart of the C14, I watched this morning when I started the bike, and the lights don't ignite until releasing the starter button.  Thinking back to the halogens, this was also the case.

I also remembered bumping the starter button against my tank bag a few times (long before installing the HID lights) while the bike was running, and it turned off the headlights while the starter button was pressed (doesn't activate the starter though, thank goodness).  If one light doesn't fire, that should do the trick to "restart" it.

Do you know if HID lights are subject to the same or similar restrictions of on / off / on time as other gas based bulbs?  Just thinking ahead, if one light doesn't fire and the other does, will it shorten the bulb life of the one that's on by just restarting them both?  I know sodium based bulbs need 5 to 10 minutes to cool down before turning them back on.
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Offline Caffeinated

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #133 on: October 12, 2012, 12:20:25 PM »
Finally got the 6000K HID kit installed yesterday. You can really see the cut off in before and after pics. I think I'm done with adding light now....


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Offline maxtog

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #134 on: October 12, 2012, 03:12:01 PM »
Finally got the 6000K HID kit installed yesterday. You can really see the cut off in before and after pics. I think I'm done with adding light now....

You are not seeing the "cutoff" in the before/after pictures.  What you are seeing is what I posted earlier- on low beams AND high beams, the HID's throw no light downward, so the bottom halves of the reflectors are never used anymore.  Using halogens, the lower halves are used with high beams.
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Offline Caffeinated

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #135 on: October 13, 2012, 07:30:34 AM »
You are not seeing the "cutoff" in the before/after pictures.  What you are seeing is what I posted earlier- on low beams AND high beams, the HID's throw no light downward, so the bottom halves of the reflectors are never used anymore.  Using halogens, the lower halves are used with high beams.

Ah, ok. That makes sense.
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Offline h2smokin

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #136 on: October 14, 2012, 12:54:25 PM »
Any current users have any problems with moisture and the ballasts? Inoticed the back ballast cover is not quite sealed, I can actually push it together for a better seal. Thinking of maybe some silicone along the edges possibly. Definitely want it sealed up. I live in arizona so moisture not much of a problem but don't want any problems if I ever do hit rain. Thanks for any input

Offline Caffeinated

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2012, 03:13:24 PM »
Any current users have any problems with moisture and the ballasts? Inoticed the back ballast cover is not quite sealed, I can actually push it together for a better seal. Thinking of maybe some silicone along the edges possibly. Definitely want it sealed up. I live in arizona so moisture not much of a problem but don't want any problems if I ever do hit rain. Thanks for any input

Mine are sealed tight. Could be a defect. I'd contact A&R to see about getting a replacement.
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Offline h2smokin

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #138 on: October 14, 2012, 03:41:37 PM »
I can slip a couple of sheets of paper into the crack on one of them although it does not go all the way thru . Hoping there is an oring/gasket of some sort. The other one just one sheet. Would hate to get stranded somewhere with no lights though. I'll give them a shout. Thanks

Offline Jeremy Mitchell

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Re: A&R Motorsports HID kit input
« Reply #139 on: October 15, 2012, 02:38:08 PM »
I can slip a couple of sheets of paper into the crack on one of them although it does not go all the way thru . Hoping there is an oring/gasket of some sort. The other one just one sheet. Would hate to get stranded somewhere with no lights though. I'll give them a shout. Thanks
;)

I have complete confidence in my A&R kit but I still carry my stock bulbs should something happen to my HIDs.
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