Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: Brad Baerwald on July 28, 2015, 04:42:26 AM
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I looked at my C10 this morning (proud that it's back together and running strong, thanks to you folks) but I had a tiny panic attack (not THAT bad but I couldn't find a better phrase) WHAT IF I START HER AND IT HYDRO"S AGAIN??? I am a tiny bit scared that after it sits for a night it might have "done it" again? It doesn't help that my garage smells like a gasoline spill (after all that major surgery)
What do you guys recommend I do to KEEP this (hydro-ing) from happening again? I looked for a "close-able" petcock (but that was before I even knew anything about the "vacuum activated" one thats on the bike. I could not find a traditional / close-able one anywhere. I've seen a guy (I think it's this site?) that put's overflow tubes in...nice idea but I like the close-able petcock idea better.
The main reason I like the ability to turn off the fuel is that it's the only way I know to "unstick" a stuck float while driving down the road! It happens from time to time on my ZX11D... this little trick works perfectly everytime. When I hear a cylinder drop out because it's running way too rich (only starts to fire if I open the throttle wide open... something you want to do with caution on THAT bike...) I know at that point I have a stuck float... I just shut off the fuel and drive it till it empties the float bowls... ( that forces max movement of floats and seems to un-stick things)... turn the gas back on and keep right on going!
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You could also pinch your petcock vacuum line with pliers to get the same result to empty the carbs while running. Somewhere here is a thread about using a Pingle petcock and plate to replace the stock one. A slight enlarging on the tanks hole is also required.
Steve (as in SISF - Steve in sunny Florida) is the one who diagnosed your off-timed cam gear. His sight is:
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/ (https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/)
I believe you can send just the carb bowls to him for overflow tubes. He has a lot of other fun stuff too (order the jets too while you do this).
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A slight enlarging on the tanks hole is also required.
Visions of things going "BOOM" in my head :shoot: :shoot: :yikes: :shoot: :shoot:
Yes, pinching the vacuum line would work... But I can't imagine doing that AS I ride down the road haha!
The petcock you mentioned.... Where? Any links? Is that a brand? Or a model?
And yes it was Steve's site where I saw the overflow tubes. Years ago I read about his jet kit too... I think I will do that, I think I remember him talking about the fact that the c10 (if in perfect health even without his kit but certainly with?) can wheelie (first gear @ 4k ...slam throttle open). Mine has NEVER been able to do that!
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This may have it (search is our friend). I also realized it is Pingel and not Pingle.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2950.msg34035#msg34035 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2950.msg34035#msg34035)
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How about a new pet cock and float needles?
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Seriously, get the overflow tubes installed and keep the petcock maintained.
A manual petcock is only as good as your memory. Forget to shut it off once and if that's THE time a carb needle/seat chooses to leak, you're still in jeopardy.
Overflow tubes never forget.
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OEM vac pet cock should do it. They usually last 10 years or more
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OEM vac pet cock should do it. They usually last 10 years or more
Soooo, you're feelin' lucky, huh??
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Amen Jettawreck :chugbeer: I'm sorry I DO NOT Trust those vacuum petcocks! If I could find an immaculate tank... I would MAYBE concider it... but it seems to me the tiniest piece of junk (from the old tank) can cause it to fail (even if it were brand spanking new)
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Soooo, you're feelin' lucky, huh??
no, not really
I just know they have a lifespan. you cant expect a couple of o rings to last forever. and if you clean the carbs occasionally you check the float needle.
preventative maintenance ;D
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Amen Jettawreck :chugbeer: I'm sorry I DO NOT Trust those vacuum petcocks! If I could find an immaculate tank... I would MAYBE concider it... but it seems to me the tiniest piece of junk (from the old tank) can cause it to fail (even if it were brand spanking new)
there's always manual petcocks. easy to get in the habit of turning on and off :)
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Soooo, you're feelin' lucky, huh??
(http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad290/salnap/Mobile%20Uploads/20150728_184327.jpg) (http://s944.photobucket.com/user/salnap/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150728_184327.jpg.html)
16 year old bike, 2nd OEM petcock. first lasted well over 10 years
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Go to the lawnmower shop and get a Briggs & Stratton inline shutoff valve. About $5. Then USE IT.
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That works too. Easy habit to get into ;)
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Yeah and "inexpensive" too as long as it doesn't mess with flow... (and I see guys going on and on about venting, kinking, and filtering) but worth a try and a heck of alot easier to deal with then another bent con. rod :hitfan:
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Yeah and "inexpensive" too as long as it doesn't mess with flow... (and I see guys going on and on about venting, kinking, and filtering) but worth a try and a heck of alot easier to deal with then another bent con. rod :hitfan:
Murphy has a very good manual petcock conversion kit designed to replace your old Connie killer petcock at a good price, $60. http://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?products_id=483 (http://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?products_id=483) If it were me, I would send your float bowls to SISF ASAP to install overflow tubes, $80. This will be the best money you can ever spend to protect your Connie. HTH
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The B&S flows plenty of fuel for a 1000cc engine. I still use em. And I use one on my home made workbench fuel tank.
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SISF, How long (just curious) is the turn around on you doing both the overflow tubes and the (entry level) Jet kitting? Can you tell me the cost too? (sorry if those are improper questions)
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SISF, How long (just curious) is the turn around on you doing both the overflow tubes and the (entry level) Jet kitting? Can you tell me the cost too? (sorry if those are improper questions)
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You would probably be better off emailing Steve directly.
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home
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Thanks gPink! will do
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Turn around time is usually a couple days, or less. Unless SISF is vacationing, but not very often.
I'm sure he will let you know promptly.
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He is on vacation for a few days but will be back and ready to do your carbs.
By the time you ship them to him he will be back and he normally turns them around in one day.
That is not true about the OEM petcock failing from a tiny piece of dirt. As a matter of fact the new OEM petcock come with a new super fine screen / filter built in (which by now yours has already deformed and is no longer filtering hence the damage to your engine.)
I have been down the road of , manual petcocks, filter, electric shut off and many other 'preventative' options. Nothing but nothing is better than the OEM petcock, they work perfect always unless you do not maintain them or fail to replace them when they get very old. That goes for anything. Dont blame the petcock, blame the owner.
By the way Brad, when you posted about your engine not running right I was the first person to tell you to do a compression check and that your cam is off one tooth.
You did not listen to me then either. Just saying is all.
Get those over flow tubes installed NOW~!.. dont think, dont delay just do it!!!
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DM...no sir, TRUST me I was listening!! I just wasn't ready (for all the reasons I said) mainly I had never done one and I didn't think I could even get the tester on the inner 2 cylinders. The other "give away" (to the timing issue) should have been, the (fairly big) puff of pressure coming out of the petcock vacuum line when I cranked it over on the battery!! I remember thinking the first time I turned her over and that happened.. "that can't be right"... but then she started and ran smooth but no power. Once I got desperate enough I over came my resitance to change LOL.
beside I was still learning to trust you guys...that's an "earned thing" I've been around long enough to know to move slow on that one! but I WAS (and still am) listening! THANKS BTW!! 8)
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He is on vacation for a few days but will be back and ready to do your carbs.
By the time you ship them to him he will be back and he normally turns them around in one day.
That is not true about the OEM petcock failing from a tiny piece of dirt. As a matter of fact the new OEM petcock come with a new super fine screen / filter built in (which by now yours has already deformed and is no longer filtering hence the damage to your engine.)
I have been down the road of , manual petcocks, filter, electric shut off and many other 'preventative' options. Nothing but nothing is better than the OEM petcock, they work perfect always unless you do not maintain them or fail to replace them when they get very old. That goes for anything. Dont blame the petcock, blame the owner.
By the way Brad, when you posted about your engine not running right I was the first person to tell you to do a compression check and that your cam is off one tooth.
You did not listen to me then either. Just saying is all.
Get those over flow tubes installed NOW~!.. dont think, dont delay just do it!!!
I respectfully disagree with you when it comes to the OEM petcock. If it is good as you think it is, there wouldn't be so many Connies in the bone yard because of hydrolock. The valve has to seat against the the head pressure in the tank. If pressure builds up in the tank (and it doesn't take very much - about the same amount as it takes to unseat the float needles), it will unseat the valve. Steve has the facts and figures about the cracking pressure on the float needles. At one time I knew that pressure but I'm an old fart and I can't remember.
In order to stay closed, the valve uses an o-ring seal against a metal seat. It can fail for many reasons, the biggest being its design flaws. If junk gets in there, it can't fully close. The tank filter is not a super fine mesh, so it lets lots of junk into the fuel system. If you don't believe that, do as I did and put a settling bowl between the petcock and carburetor and you will see how much debris you get through the screen. I have read in the post here that people have purchased new petcocks and they still leak right out of the box. Some try to rebuild them and they leak.
Yes, I agree maintenance is the key to keeping these old girls on the road. Mother KAW had its head up its a$$ when it designed the fuel system on the C10. Steve came up with the retro fit for overflow tubes that works to help prevent hydrolock and Mother chose not to. Did you know the 1200 Voyager has the same float bowls as the C10 Connie, but it also has overflow tubes? Therefore, I don't think the EPA was dictating the fuel system design as both bikes were being built at the same time.
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The pet cock leak would have to be a pretty steady flow...but if they all leak, right out of the box, go with a manual petcock. Overflow tubes don't correct the leaky petcock OR the float needles. I guess what I'm saying is manual petcock sounds like a better and easier fix than tubes.
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Uh-oh... :popcorn:
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Uh-oh... :popcorn:
uh oh? and pop corn? what do you know that I don't know?
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A game of ifs.....
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Yeah, ifs. If you put in a new vacuum petcock, it might leak, it might not. If you put in new needle floats, they might work, they might not. If you put in overflow tubes, you didn't fix the leaky petcock OR float needles.
You just wait for a puddle of fuel to tell you one or both are leaking.
The manual petcock is sounding better.
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Yeah, ifs. If you put in a new vacuum petcock, it might leak, it might not. If you put in new needle floats, they might work, they might not. If you put in overflow tubes, you didn't fix the leaky petcock OR float needles.
You just wait for a puddle of fuel to tell you one or both are leaking.
The manual petcock is sounding better.
If you remember to turn it off....every time.
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If you remember to turn it off....every time.
That's the way we used to do it...shut it off a block before we parked
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If you remember to turn it off....every time.
And I can pretty much guarantee that no one will remember 100% of the time, every time. If you don't remember, then it's worthless.
A functioning OEM auto type petcock with overflow protected bowls is the perfect solution.
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That's what I said earlier. OEM. But all I keep reading is OEM will leak and you will hydrolock if you don't install tubes.
'Smatter of fact, I typed OEM petcock way back, you quoted me asking if I felt lucky. A functioning petcock shouldn't require tubes.
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That's what I said earlier. OEM. But all I keep reading is OEM will leak and you will hydrolock if you don't install tubes.
'Smatter of fact, I typed OEM petcock way back, you quoted me asking if I felt lucky. A functioning petcock shouldn't require tubes.
A perfectly functioning OEM petcock doesn't require overflows. But I'm not lucky enough in my experiences to rely on it always continuing to function properly, so I had overflows installed. Maybe, hopefully, never will matter. But, I will never worry about it again or have to try to remember to turn on/off a manual one.
Just my preference. Seems pretty much foolproof, as in this fool can't go wrong with it. Seems the odds of failure may be relatively costly and inconvienent.
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The "back and forth" here is great! I can see each person's point and I thank everyone for their viewpoint, This is what I've condensed out of this for me:
OEM petcock USUALLY works... (if maintained and not too old.. any one got the magic #? lol)
Manual petcock... are only as good as the guy using it (many "senior momments" here ha ha)
Over flow tubes.... a MUST in both cases because neither choice fixes the actual problem that
1) float needles valves do not allways work perfectly
2) (and the biggest problem) the "down hill" design of the fuel / air system
so it's overfloe tubes for sure (cause as I look at your posts, nothing else can guarantee, and not getting them means you like to gamble)
i also ordered the manual Petcock... but NOT because I nolonger trust the OEM one... but because the manual one allows me too "un-stick" a float valve AS I drive down the road!!
Thanks guys! This connie will never "Hydro" again!
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Didn't mean to hijack your thread Brad. Just looking for info/ answers myself. Owned a few bikes, both manual and vac petcock.
My next question is this : overflow tubes go from there bowl to...? Drain hoses?
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No problem (I would never have seen it as a "High Jack")
Yes as I understand it you are correct. the idea (I surmise) is that these tubes sit at a magic level in the float bowls that are obviously above the normal (operating) fuel level but lower than the point at which fuel starts to run out of the main needle jets, DOWN HILL, into the intake manifold...
with the tubes installed the fuel never breaches into the intakes but flows out the tubes, to where ever you run the drain lines. At least that's how I understand it.
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yes, to ground
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OH good point! you would NOT want the drain lines to end up higher than the point at where they connect to the overflow nipples... THAT WOULD defeat the WHOLE thing!!! (because of the laws of physics LOL!!!! :doh:
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so the tubes come out of the carbs where? where's the hose attach point? must be a vent hose or tube being used or am I way off?
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top set stock? second modded?
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well I've haven't had mine done yet so I'm only guessing but my whole point last time was that "gravity" is your friend (when talking about these overflow tubes) so I would assume they exit somewhere out the bottom (below where they "end" inside the float bowl and BTW the carbs already have a "vent" for the float bowls those are what those "T" conectors between Carb's 1 and 2 and then again between 3 and 4. The hoses are typically the clear tubes that go nowhere after they come off the carbs. The Cali models do run those vents to something tho (I'm not sure)
So the simple answer is (and I'm guessing) the vent tubes are inserted into the bottom of the float bowls and go up into the float cavity to that magical hieght (I was talking about) that same tube exit's out the bottom where you attach a drain line (and make sure that line goes down. so the offending gasoline can drain before it reaches the height that would again let gas go into the engine
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hmmm actually looks to me that both might have overflows? but the top pic isn't C10 carbs anyway the bottom one is and I see hoses attached to the bottom of the float bowls (and that isn't stock) to my knowldge)
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Sounds like a good explanation to me. The tube height would be a critical element.
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I seen guys (here) talking about the fact that the "Kawasaki Gods" never put overflow tubes in the C10's Carbs YET made other bikes that (used the same carbs?) and always had overflow tubes... I think most bikes do (the bikes that have carbs of course) and it's crazy that they never saw fit to do this?! because the C10 OBVIOUSLY "Hydro's" Frankly I've never heard of "hydro-ing", till it happened to me!! and I was aware I was having fuel control issues...YIKES!!
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well I've haven't had mine done yet so I'm only guessing but my whole point last time was that "gravity" is your friend (when talking about these overflow tubes) so I would assume they exit somewhere out the bottom (below where they "end" inside the float bowl and BTW the carbs already have a "vent" for the float bowls those are what those "T" conectors between Carb's 1 and 2 and then again between 3 and 4. The hoses are typically the clear tubes that go nowhere after they come off the carbs. The Cali models do run those vents to something tho (I'm not sure)
So the simple answer is (and I'm guessing) the vent tubes are inserted into the bottom of the float bowls and go up into the float cavity to that magical hieght (I was talking about) that same tube exit's out the bottom where you attach a drain line (and make sure that line goes down. so the offending gasoline can drain before it reaches the height that would again let gas go into the engine
ok, so tubes go where you'd drain your carb bowls from? hole drilled through bottom of carb bowl? i'm picturing a toilet tank. tube say 1.5" or whatever, fuel fills up to your magical height, overflows into tubes? then out where the bowl drain screw is? am I even close?
none of the other carbureted bikes ive owned had tubes like that in the bowls.
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yeah something like that... im not shure if the "float bowl drain screws" get messed with (I assume not so you can still use the drains??) and I like your "toilet tank" analogy. I think we're communicating here ;D but yes a new hole the tube would go into.
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What I did was to collect all of the drains via tubing to a manifold then to a single drain line. On mine, this drain tube exits under the carbs on the left side, makes a little turn under the oil fill cap, then up over and back down behind the trans. In the little low spot I have a few drops of heavy oil. See that gas that sits in your carbs evaporates. You can always prime to fill them back up of course. But the drops of oil in there make it a little harder for all of the fuel in the carbs to evaporate, yet still allow gas to exit in the event of a petcock, float needle failure. The carbs are otherwise vented to the atmosphere I realize so this is not a perfect system, but it does give me that warm fuzzy feeling as if I've actually done something.
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i also ordered the manual Petcock... but NOT because I nolonger trust the OEM one... but because the manual one allows me too "un-stick" a float valve AS I drive down the road!!
Yes you can unstick float valve(s) with OEM. I have done it a few times. Just open the throttle wide open. You dont have to rev out the engine or go past the speed limit (much)and it works ..
and yes the drain screws still work as they always have
By the way,good job on the summary... you nailed it :chugbeer: :chugbeer:
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I seen guys (here) talking about the fact that the "Kawasaki Gods" never put overflow tubes in the C10's Carbs YET made other bikes that (used the same carbs?) and always had overflow tubes... I think most bikes do (the bikes that have carbs of course) and it's crazy that they never saw fit to do this?! because the C10 OBVIOUSLY "Hydro's" Frankly I've never heard of "hydro-ing", till it happened to me!! and I was aware I was having fuel control issues...YIKES!!
I keep reading this post. by Kawasaki gods you mean the designers? engineers? the Kawasakis I have/had didn't have overflow tubes,and had vacuum petocks. neither did the Hondas or suzukis, and the one Yamaha.
I'd be willing to bet they didn't use overflow tubes due to liability of bikes catching fire, or garages catching fire.
you know how lawyers think. I'm sure they figured the average amount of claims they'd have to pay out.
the leaky petcock I experienced was only dripping. I didn't do a study on how long it would take to fill a cup, or coffee can. I replaced it with an OEM vacuum petcock. they seem to last a good 10 years.
there wasn't much talk about hydrolock on the GPz board. or overflow tubes. or on the ZRX board either. interesting why its such a
common problem to the ZG1000
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I keep reading this post. by Kawasaki gods you mean the designers? engineers? the Kawasakis I have/had didn't have overflow tubes,and had vacuum petocks. neither did the Hondas or suzukis, and the one Yamaha.
I'd be willing to bet they didn't use overflow tubes due to liability of bikes catching fire, or garages catching fire.
you know how lawyers think. I'm sure they figured the average amount of claims they'd have to pay out.
the leaky petcock I experienced was only dripping. I didn't do a study on how long it would take to fill a cup, or coffee can. I replaced it with an OEM vacuum petcock. they seem to last a good 10 years.
there wasn't much talk about hydrolock on the GPz board. or overflow tubes. or on the ZRX board either. interesting why its such a
common problem to the ZG1000
ahhh the raveges of youth, the differences between Kehein and Mikuni carbs, going back into time, created and needed certain parameters, which the carb designers made... the bike designers didn't do the carbs... they bought them....and installed them.
wayyyy back in time, because I do not know your age, I will say Mikuni carbs were the major player. they had internal overflow tubes in the float bowls... and almost all of them that I can recall, had steel float needles, sitting on brass inserts, that controlled fuel flow... and they actually worked... oh, at that time, all petcocks were manual...yeah, at times there would be a leaker, but when it leaked, it drained. on the ground.
the beginning of the Kehein CV carbs was exponentially superior, but then, it was an infant at the time... originally, those float needles were polished metal also, but rapidly (first year) changed to a rubber/polymer tip...
stuff happened.
fuel changed, bikes sat in places for years, people got cheap, service got expensive, and all in all, the scenario and outcome rolls downhill to today.
my experience with Mikuni carbs, on all my old bikes, was the intake tract ALWAYS ran uphill... slightly, but still uphill. it was due to the tall tower required to contain the barrel slide, and the throttle cable and adjustments for same... when the Kehein's appeared, they were shorter, and the links were relocated, thus, they lifted the carbs up, and in dead space, under the tank, and aimed the throats downwards... mm mm bad choice, because people tend to pour strange snake oil additives I.e.seafoam, and Berrymans B12, into the gas, and let it sit in carbs... degrading the rubber/polymer tips on the float needles..
I digress, but take my word, there is a history of progression, and also mistakes made by "OEM" suppliers, such as Kehein..
we work around it. we adapt.
gpz and zrx carbs do differ, so looking for the answer there is moot.... besides, both those bikes have a 6 month ife expectancy with the squidies.. so... they never see the 30 year old results...
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I digress, but take my word, there is a history of progression, and also mistakes made by "OEM" suppliers, such as Kehein..
we work around it. we adapt.
gpz and zrx carbs do differ, so looking for the answer there is moot.... besides, both those bikes have a 6 month ife expectancy with the squidies.. so... they never see the 30 year old results...
Interesting history. Informative.
I'm no spring chicken, but I don't go back to the beginning of carb design.
I've cracked open a few, never saw the infamous tubes.
The 81 GPz I owned about 5-7 years ago. Don't know how many squids owned it before me. Not many squids into GPz
of that vintage. When Ninjas first came about they phased out GPz's.
The ZRX is definitely not a squid type bike. Its considered a 'standard' - meaning old school type bike. It's a tribute to the GPz and Eddie Lawson
Most of the owners are 40s-70.
Squids are into the Gixxers and Ninjas and Busas.
The ZRX uses Keihin cv carbs. The petcock only lasts 10 years or so. Float needles have a shelf life too. Most guys on that forum either do their own work or send carbs out to their 'guru'. Very knowledgeable guy. Doesn't install tubes.
I think the main difference with ZG & ZRX is starter gear, zg will try to start where zrx won't when cyl full, not so much the carbs.
I'd still worry about spilled fuel. Manual petcock sounds a little safer.
just all new info for me. Trying to understand.
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Hmm...Keihin carbs...made by Honda...
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Interesting conversation...C14 doesn't have that problem and I'm totally glad about that. When I owned a C10, I think my petcock started leaking and I replaced it with the OEM. Never had any more issues with it, but then I only owned one for about 6 years. Way before that I had a Silver Wing with a manual petcock, which I was always forgetting to turn on or off. I can't do manual, don't have the memory for it. FI rules, my friends. Good luck.
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Yeah FI does rule. Carbs must be way cheaper or all bikes would be injected.
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ahhh the raveges of youth, the differences between Kehein and Mikuni carbs, going back into time, created and needed certain parameters, which the carb designers made... the bike designers didn't do the carbs... they bought them....and installed them.
wayyyy back in time, because I do not know your age, I will say Mikuni carbs were the major player. they had internal overflow tubes in the float bowls... and almost all of them that I can recall, had steel float needles, sitting on brass inserts, that controlled fuel flow... and they actually worked... oh, at that time, all petcocks were manual...yeah, at times there would be a leaker, but when it leaked, it drained. on the ground.
the beginning of the Kehein CV carbs was exponentially superior, but then, it was an infant at the time... originally, those float needles were polished metal also, but rapidly (first year) changed to a rubber/polymer tip...
stuff happened.
fuel changed, bikes sat in places for years, people got cheap, service got expensive, and all in all, the scenario and outcome rolls downhill to today.
my experience with Mikuni carbs, on all my old bikes, was the intake tract ALWAYS ran uphill... slightly, but still uphill. it was due to the tall tower required to contain the barrel slide, and the throttle cable and adjustments for same... when the Kehein's appeared, they were shorter, and the links were relocated, thus, they lifted the carbs up, and in dead space, under the tank, and aimed the throats downwards... mm mm bad choice, because people tend to pour strange snake oil additives I.e.seafoam, and Berrymans B12, into the gas, and let it sit in carbs... degrading the rubber/polymer tips on the float needles..
I digress, but take my word, there is a history of progression, and also mistakes made by "OEM" suppliers, such as Kehein..
we work around it. we adapt.
gpz and zrx carbs do differ, so looking for the answer there is moot.... besides, both those bikes have a 6 month ife expectancy with the squidies.. so... they never see the 30 year old results...
What's really interesting is the Voyager XII had production years right along side the C10 - 1986 - 2003 with Keihen carbs that had OEM overflow tubes.
XII float bowls are a direct swap to the C10, an option if someone just wants overflow tubes.
So Keihen was making identical float bowls, for the same company, some with and some without overflow tubes.
Perhaps different design / control teams between C10 and XII leading to difference in carb bowl setup for concurrent years?
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Yeah FI does rule. Carbs must be way cheaper or all bikes would be injected.
Not exactly true, fuel injection technology came long after carbs.
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Not exactly true, fuel injection technology came long after carbs.
Yes, I realize FI came much later, but surely by the mid 80 ' s most bikes could have been built with FI instead of carbs. I'm willing to bet it was cost related.
And I'm guessing overflow tubes lead to claims being paid out. We're living in a very litigious society. The EPA excuse makes a good cover story for manufacturers
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We're living in a very litigious society.
New word for the day...litigious
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New word for the day...litigious
Yeah, my lawyer Jackie Chiles has always wanted a piece of the big 3 Japanese bike makers
li·ti·gious
ləˈtijəs/Submit
adjective
concerned with lawsuits or litigation.
unreasonably prone to go to law to settle disputes.
suitable to become the subject of a lawsuit.
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Jackie rules!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpcEietIoxk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpcEietIoxk)
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And I'm guessing overflow tubes lead to claims being paid out. We're living in a very litigious society. The EPA excuse makes a good cover story for manufacturers
The thing of it is, without Overflow tubes, you would still be quite likely to leak gasoline. If the intake valve is closed on the cylinder that's leaking, it will simply leak out the airbox. If the valve is open, it will leak through to the engine oil and may or may not leak out the airbox, depending on the severity of the leak. It's not like the gasoline just sits there cuz you don't have overflow tubes. It will leak on the ground, quickly or eventually. It's that gravity thing.
The tubes just let you know before you hit the starter button that you have a defect, or more likely, a minimum of two defects.
Yeehaw!
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But tubes don't fix the issue. Bad petcock/ float needles. Either check petcock periodically, oil level, clean carbs...or just go with manual petcock. Can't be that hard to remember to shut fuel off.
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:popcorn: :popcorn:
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:popcorn: :popcorn:
LOL that's not the first time someone watching & eating popcorn.
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But tubes don't fix the issue. Bad petcock/ float needles. Either check petcock periodically, oil level, clean carbs...or just go with manual petcock. Can't be that hard to remember to shut fuel off.
Changing to a manual petcock doesn't fix anything. It just changes the failure modes. Manual petcocks can fail too. Also, as others have said there is also the human error.
The original post asked how to keep it from hydro-ing. Well overflow tubes do fix that. In fact, it is the ONLY fix that works every time. The OP didn't ask how to fix a leaky petcock or leaky float needles. It's absurdly obvious that overflow tubes don't fix those. The plain truth is that nothing is perfect. Suppose a dirt dauber decides to fill your overflow drain tube with mud. Anything can fail in some way or another. So back to what I believe to be the intent of the original post which was the best, most practical method for preventing hydrolocks. That's overflow tubes.
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Changing to a manual petcock doesn't fix anything. It just changes the failure modes. Manual petcocks can fail too. Also, as others have said there is also the human error.
The original post asked how to keep it from hydro-ing. Well overflow tubes do fix that. In fact, it is the ONLY fix that works every time. The OP didn't ask how to fix a leaky petcock or leaky float needles. It's absurdly obvious that overflow tubes don't fix those. The plain truth is that nothing is perfect. Suppose a dirt dauber decides to fill your overflow drain tube with mud. Anything can fail in some way or another. So back to what I believe to be the intent of the original post which was the best, most practical method for preventing hydrolocks. That's overflow tubes.
I would think a manual petcock changes a lot. the petcock is the start of the problem. it leaks. the next step is the float needles failing to seal. manual petcocks are much less apt to fail.
human error- is it really that hard to remember to turn off the fuel every time you stop?
anything can fail.
I think the best way to prevent hydrolock is to stop the flow of fuel.
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Do you turn the gas off when you stop to fuel up, when you stop for 5 for a picture and a drink? How much fuel does it take in the combustion chamber to stop compression? I think the point is just as there are several parts to a complete failure there are several parts to prevention.
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the leaky petcock I experienced was a drip. how many drips to fill a combustion chamber at refuel stop? easy fix, buy and install new petcock
I agree there are several parts to failure / prevention, but the main thing I keep hearing is overflow tubes. why not just pull the fuel line off the petcock ?
same results. the gas ends up on the floor
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the leaky petcock I experienced was a drip. how many drips to fill a combustion chamber at refuel stop? easy fix, buy and install new petcock
I agree there are several parts to failure / prevention, but the main thing I keep hearing is overflow tubes. why not just pull the fuel line off the petcock ?
same results. the gas ends up on the floor
If the petcock fails, you will get fuel on the ground one way or another. It might take longer for it to fill a combustion chamber and start running out the air cleaner box (BAD DEAL), or, if installed, out the overflow tubes. Your choice.
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the leaky petcock I experienced was a drip. how many drips to fill a combustion chamber at refuel stop? easy fix, buy and install new petcock
I agree there are several parts to failure / prevention, but the main thing I keep hearing is overflow tubes. why not just pull the fuel line off the petcock ?
same results. the gas ends up on the floor
Brilliant!
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Brilliant!
maybe we can add this to the list of " fixes "
A lot easier and cheaper.
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maybe we can add this to the list of " fixes "
A lot easier and cheaper.
Here you go. http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-Quick-Disconnect-Couplings/dp/B000N5TI3W (http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-Quick-Disconnect-Couplings/dp/B000N5TI3W)
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From the site:
Capable of withstanding temperatures of -40 deg. F to 180 deg. F
I don't think I'd trust the 180 degree part.
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the leaky petcock I experienced was a drip. how many drips to fill a combustion chamber at refuel stop? easy fix, buy and install new petcock
I agree there are several parts to failure / prevention, but the main thing I keep hearing is overflow tubes. why not just pull the fuel line off the petcock ?
same results. the gas ends up on the floor
I believe that qualifies for inexpensive...I mean cheap...uh, frugal. Yeah, that's it.
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I'm not really cheap, but if I have to spill fuel on the ground, why pay extra to do it?? :banana
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You and I are on the same page. I suggested installing an inline shutoff valve that
cost all of $5.
I never heard the end of that.
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and let me guess..it didn't restrict the flow, didn't turn into a pumpkin at the stroke of midnight...
post up a pic of your set up if you can
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Here you go. http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-Quick-Disconnect-Couplings/dp/B000N5TI3W (http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-Quick-Disconnect-Couplings/dp/B000N5TI3W)
If you are going to use this disconnect to protect your C10 from hydrolock, you might need some of these. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051TPJKG/ref=s9_top_hd_bw_g263_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-2&pf_rd_r=0GJ2WQ493R5F7P0AWN9X&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=2125357502&pf_rd_i=13400621 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051TPJKG/ref=s9_top_hd_bw_g263_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-2&pf_rd_r=0GJ2WQ493R5F7P0AWN9X&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=2125357502&pf_rd_i=13400621)
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If you are going to use this disconnect to protect your C10 from hydrolock, you might need some of these. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051TPJKG/ref=s9_top_hd_bw_g263_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-2&pf_rd_r=0GJ2WQ493R5F7P0AWN9X&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=2125357502&pf_rd_i=13400621 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051TPJKG/ref=s9_top_hd_bw_g263_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-2&pf_rd_r=0GJ2WQ493R5F7P0AWN9X&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=2125357502&pf_rd_i=13400621)
I'd probably need those more if I have tubes leaking fuel onto the floor of the garage... or anywhere else I park
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Here's a link to one. The price has gone up!
I have one on both bikes and use it for my bench supply tank.
They work quite well.
http://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton-698183-Shut-Off-Selected/dp/B0038U3JKM (http://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton-698183-Shut-Off-Selected/dp/B0038U3JKM)
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amazing to me how every few years we rehash the whole hydrolock protection deal, only to come back to the same conclusion.
and to throw some actual facts into the conversation, all engines in the zg / zx family that came after the original zg1000 had a clutched starter drive gear to mitigate the forces that would bend a rod. zrx's still hydrolock, they just don't damage the rods when it happens. HTh, Steve
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Steve, what's the cc volume of the zg1000 combustion chamber?
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Stopping the flow of fuel sounds like the logical solution
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Steve, what's the cc volume of the zg1000 combustion chamber?
iirc about 17cc for the head. Somewhere I have all the math for the entire swept chamber, but not digging for it now. Steve
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iirc about 17cc for the head. Somewhere I have all the math for the entire swept chamber, but not digging for it now. Steve
So if 1 ounce = about 30 cc's and the chamber at full compression is about 17 cc's then less than a shot of good bourbon will hydrolock the cylinder. Interesting.
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very interesting. stopping the flow from the petcock saves that good bourbon
and I bet these things would run better on good bourbon.
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I'd probably need those more if I have tubes leaking fuel onto the floor of the garage... or anywhere else I park
At least with overflow tubes you know where the drip is, and it is not dripping over a hot engine. :deadhorse:
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LOL but if your petcock doesn't leak.....
We can just keep going and going....
There used to be a commercial on TV for one of the "tech" schools, " I don't have any money because I don't have a job. I don't have a job because I didn't go to school...." or something to that effect. The words went in a circle.
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Most petcocks don't leak ... until they leak. What's your next line of defense against hydrolock? ::)
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Fuel filter. Then float needles.
From all the reading I've done, manual petcock like pingel seems to work fine. Some people have added in line shut offs.
Round and round we go ;D
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Disconnect the fuel line. ;-)
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Disconnect the fuel line. ;-)
I think I may have said that. :stirpot:
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I had a manual fuel disconnect once. I hydro-locked the engine with it. I had to turn it on or the engine would not run. That was was before anyone thought of installing overflow tubes.
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With all the hydrolocking that goes on I'm surprised there's any zg's left at all
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With all the hydrolocking that goes on I'm surprised there's any zg's left at all
There's more left than there would be because the smart owners have had overflow tubes installed.
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why wouldn't the smart owner maintain ALL the contributing factors?
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why wouldn't the smart owner maintain ALL the contributing factors?
And many do; but apparently that may still not be enough....
Thus the backward step of putting back in what was left out for whatever reason an "overflow" tube....
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why wouldn't the smart owner maintain ALL the contributing factors?
Purely speculating here. I would bet there are quite a few petcocks that would leak if given the chance right now. However, the float needles are doing their job for now, so this goes unnoticed. That day when a grain of rust or sand meets it's new friend the float needle, there will be trouble. Kind of hard to prevent other than replace or rebuild every few years. Connie owners are notoriously frugal. Why fix something that isn't broke......
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Purely speculating here. I would bet there are quite a few petcocks that would leak if given the chance right now. However, the float needles are doing their job for now, so this goes unnoticed. That day when a grain of rust or sand meets it's new friend the float needle, there will be trouble. Kind of hard to prevent other than replace or rebuild every few years. Connie owners are notoriously frugal. Why fix something that isn't broke......
so if knowing this given chance of petcock leaking, why not start there? if a grain of sand will stick open a float, why not install a filter?
being frugal I would think they would pull their carbs off in the off season, or once a year, and give them a good cleaning. with a service manual they could follow step by step directions on carb removal, disassembly, cleaning, reassembly, reinstalling.
paying someone else to clean, re-jet, set float height, install tubes sounds opposite of frugal.
seems like the frugal way to go is a fuel filter. manual petcocks are a bit more expensive than fuel filters, but effective. the few people ive seen post about filters and inline shut off are almost ganged up on by the collective. it's almost like a brain washing. " WE DID TUBES, ITS THE ONLY WAY "
I'm not trying to be a dick, or argumentative, but it looks like every option other than tubes is ridiculed.
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I've had my tank off at least 3 to 4 times a year for the last 3 years for various reasons, valve adjusts, cam swaps, carb swaps and lots of jetting changes. Every time I removed the fuel line the petcock worked as it should and no gas leaked out.
This spring when I removed it to do a 1052cc conversion kit I expected the same results as always, remove seat, remove tank and on and on. WRONG! It went, remove seat, remove fuel line ... OH S**T ... install fuel line fast and go find something to drain all the gas in the tank into cause the petcock decided to not stop the gas from flowing any more.
I maintain my bike like any smart owner but when a petcock or float needles decide to not work any more most of the time there's no warning signs. You either come out to your bike with a puddle of gas under it cause your ARE a smart owner and installed overflow tubes for insurance, or you come out to your bike, hit the starter and CLUNK ... well, how hard could replacing a connecting rod be anyways.
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so if knowing this given chance of petcock leaking, why not start there? if a grain of sand will stick open a float, why not install a filter?
being frugal I would think they would pull their carbs off in the off season, or once a year, and give them a good cleaning. with a service manual they could follow step by step directions on carb removal, disassembly, cleaning, reassembly, reinstalling.
paying someone else to clean, re-jet, set float height, install tubes sounds opposite of frugal.
seems like the frugal way to go is a fuel filter. manual petcocks are a bit more expensive than fuel filters, but effective. the few people ive seen post about filters and inline shut off are almost ganged up on by the collective. it's almost like a brain washing. " WE DID TUBES, ITS THE ONLY WAY "
I'm not trying to be a dick, or argumentative, but it looks like every option other than tubes is ridiculed.
:banghead: :deadhorse:
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wouldn't a pingel manual have been insurance also?
:banghead: :deadhorse:
7 pages, 103 responses. is the horse dead enough yet?
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Purely speculating here. I would bet there are quite a few petcocks that would leak if given the chance right now. However, the float needles are doing their job for now, so this goes unnoticed. That day when a grain of rust or sand meets it's new friend the float needle, there will be trouble. Kind of hard to prevent other than replace or rebuild every few years. Connie owners are notoriously frugal. Why fix something that isn't broke......
Experience has me disagreeing with this statement. In my experience with these carbs, here are some observations;
1) as time / miles progress, and wear occurs, the fuel levels creep upward. This is the ordinary state of affairs. Given enough time, the fuel levels are getting dangerously close to overflowing even with a properly functioning petcock.
2) fuel valves / floats are intended to control the volume and level of the fuel, they really aren't up to the task of holding a full tank of fuel nor were they intended to.
3)Given the ordinary wear mentioned in #1, all it takes is one needle to start leaking to reduce the pressure... and there's the setup for a hydrolock.
And to Salnap, here's some more info, just to get you up to speed... I don't know how long you've owned your 1000 or what your experience with these bikes / carbs is. I will tell you that I've been dealing with these bike for 10 years, I've done over 500 sets of carbs in the last 5 years, and lot's of experience before that when prior to offering my carb services. "Back in the day" the biggest amount of posting and discussion swirled around carb work, rebuilding, problems, etc. In fact hydrolock really wasn't even as known as it is now. there was no hydrolock rod test, etc. When I and a few others started seeing more and more reports of bent rods, looking for a viable, inexpensive fix evolved. there was also a large contingency of folks who tried and tried to do thier own carb work with miserable results. Maybe really getting the carbs right isn't as easy as you may think.
Today, many of the connie owners you see here are long time owners with many years of experience on thier bikes. Enthusiasts of a discontinued model, and many own more than one. What you see here is often the best advise developed from years and years of ownership and combined knowledge. Maybe you ought to think about that whenever you get advise from these guys. Most, through years of experience, know what works and what doesn't. they know ALL the options and choose what works for them, you have the same options to make your own choices too. Maybe if you come up with a better option we'll all be onboard with it. Just a thought. steve
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1) as time / miles progress, and wear occurs, the fuel levels creep upward. This is the ordinary state of affairs. Given enough time, the fuel levels are getting dangerously close to overflowing even with a properly functioning petcock.
steve
I was thinking was an issue too but had no basis for it (other than seeing it each time I cleaned a set of carbs - oops).
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wouldn't a pingel manual have been insurance also?
:banghead: :deadhorse:
7 pages, 103 responses. is the horse dead enough yet?
Apparently not!!
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Steve
I'm not saying I have a better solution.
and I realize some of these guys have all the experience and knowledge.
all I'm saying is there's options. different causes and options to each of the causes.
but I'm new and inexperienced
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When I and a few others started seeing more and more reports of bent rods, looking for a viable, inexpensive fix evolved. there was also a large contingency of folks who tried and tried to do thier own carb work with miserable results. Maybe really getting the carbs right isn't as easy as you may think.
Today, many of the connie owners you see here are long time owners with many years of experience on thier bikes. Enthusiasts of a discontinued model, and many own more than one. What you see here is often the best advise developed from years and years of ownership and combined knowledge. Maybe you ought to think about that whenever you get advise from these guys. Most, through years of experience, know what works and what doesn't. they know ALL the options and choose what works for them, you have the same options to make your own choices too. Maybe if you come up with a better option we'll all be onboard with it. Just a thought. steve
I'm really tempted to close this thread with SISF's comments as they ring spot on....
(1) Maintain your petcock or convert it to manual and don't ever forget it....
(2) Maintain your carbs as even though you've covered the step above there is still the chance the valve may leak by. Ask my engineering crew about the day they all but put fuel in the water when not one but two valves leaked by...
(3) Install overflow tubes or not... Its your bike and dime.... :deadhorse: