Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil

[katata1100]

I do not think that is correct Steve- the oils that contain friction modifiers are all 30 weight (or Xw- 30 multi- weight) oils as far as I know. Diesel oils are not energy saving and do not contain friction modifiers, again to the best of my knowledge. Diesel oils are all heavier than 30 weight, at least the multi- weight diesel oils are. I have seen straight 30 weight diesel rated oil but then again, no straight weight oil is energy saving either to the best of my knowledge.

Diesel oils seem to work well in motorcycles and are very popular with no nasty side effects that I am aware of, although I do not care for the way my C-14 shifts using 5w- 40 Rotella (the new stuff, the older stuff was better in my experience).

I see all these claims of clutch damaging "friction modifiers" but in all of these threads, have yet to see someone actually post an example of a clutch destroying FM in a 5-30w oil that is not in any bike specific oil. Can't say that moly is the culprit as Torco Motorcycle oil has one of the highest levels of moly of any oil and you don't hear of people complaining of clutch problems.
Not all diesel oils are 40w. As i pointed out, M1  5-30w ESP meets VW504,507- those are more demanding specs than the Rotella 5-40w can meet.
The biggest difference between diesel oils and car oils is:
1) Higher level of detergents (to deal with soot).
2) Higher level of ZDDP (this is what the bike's tranny likes).

I guess my point is that there are cheap diesel oils you can use in your bike, but these oils (I am talking about the Rotella twins) are not the best diesel oils out there,
not by a long shot. However, spending extra $$ for the better diesel oils defeats the purpose of buying them- which is to save money over buying bike specific oil.
 I think in my neck of the woods, that M1 5-40 stuff is over $7 a quart. For a little less than that or the same price, I got Redline 5-40 pao/ester motorcycle oil.
As for weights, well, I have seen more than one oil analysis that showed Rotella 5-40 to sheer down to a 5-30 within 2k miles (the VI didn't hold up). Yet, the wear analysis  (even on a ZX14 with 5K miles on the oil) was still pretty good.

[B.D.F.]

You may well be right about moly <not> causing any damage to a wet clutch. It seems to be commonly accepted that some friction modifiers, specifically molybdenum disulfide ('moly') may damage wet clutches in motorcycles but I have not seen any data detailing any real instances either. I tend to avoid them myself probably because of the negative hype but again, all of the fuel saving oils are 30 weight and that is a bit thin for a gear mesh transmission anyway so I guess I could choose either reason for avoiding them.

I think you are also right about what we are calling diesel oils in general but some types are sold specifically for diesel use and so labeled. As far as the level of ZDDP, I believe the new formulations of Rotella are all at or under the 800 PPM mark as 'suggested' by the US gov't to avoid coating catalytic converters in the exhausts of modern vehicles. Specific motorcycle oils <may> contain higher levels of Zinc, and some racing oils absolutely do but generally the new trend in all oils aimed at street vehicles is to lower the Zinc levels to a max. of 800 PPM from the older 1,200 to 1,500 PPM.

Brian

I see all these claims of clutch damaging "friction modifiers" but in all of these threads, have yet to see someone actually post an example of a clutch destroying FM in a 5-30w oil that is not in any bike specific oil. Can't say that moly is the culprit as Torco Motorcycle oil has one of the highest levels of moly of any oil and you don't hear of people complaining of clutch problems.
Not all diesel oils are 40w. As i pointed out, M1  5-30w ESP meets VW504,507- those are more demanding specs than the Rotella 5-40w can meet.
The biggest difference between diesel oils and car oils is:
1) Higher level of detergents (to deal with soot).
2) Higher level of ZDDP (this is what the bike's tranny likes).

I guess my point is that there are cheap diesel oils you can use in your bike, but these oils (I am talking about the Rotella twins) are not the best diesel oils out there,
not by a long shot. However, spending extra $$ for the better diesel oils defeats the purpose of buying them- which is to save money over buying bike specific oil.
 I think in my neck of the woods, that M1 5-40 stuff is over $7 a quart. For a little less than that or the same price, I got Redline 5-40 pao/ester motorcycle oil.
As for weights, well, I have seen more than one oil analysis that showed Rotella 5-40 to sheer down to a 5-30 within 2k miles (the VI didn't hold up). Yet, the wear analysis  (even on a ZX14 with 5K miles on the oil) was still pretty good.

[lather]

Bottom line is that $20 worth of Rotella Synth (or 18 or 22 whatever the going price is) is an acceptable long term alternative to more expensive Moto specific synthetics in my opinion, backed by my last 180,000 miles of riding with it.

[ZedHed]

I've used 5W-XX oil since I've had my C14, but synthetic.

My Shell Oil friend said that 5W number factors mainly during start-up cold engine temps and synth, whether blended or full, has a whole different characteristic when cold. 5W a non-issue.

He could've been BSing me but I've ran 5W-XX on all my bikes track and street with no issue.

The point all of you are missing is that the C14 shares it's oil with the transmission and a right-angle output drive to the drive shaft.  This changes the oil equation substantially.  That right-angle output unit has basically the same function as the rear drive unit that specs 80w-90 gear lube.  So.....are you confident using 5w-XX oil in this special environment?  Remember, drag-racing cars have only the engine to lubricate with the engine oil, not a transmission or a right-angle drive assembly that need much better shear-resistant lubrication.

Before you compare the C14 lubrication needs to other vehicles, you really should consider all the variables.  I'm with Fred H. on this one -- 5 weight is just not good enough for the C14.  I agree with the use of 15w-40 HDEO in the C14 provided you don't try to extend the OCIs.  4-5000 miles would be a good OCI with them...

[Pokey]

The point all of you are missing is that the C14 shares it's oil with the transmission and a right-angle output drive to the drive shaft.  This changes the oil equation substantially.  That right-angle output unit has basically the same function as the rear drive unit that specs 80w-90 gear lube.  So.....are you confident using 5w-XX oil in this special environment?  Remember, drag-racing cars have only the engine to lubricate with the engine oil, not a transmission or a right-angle drive assembly that need much better shear-resistant lubrication.

Before you compare the C14 lubrication needs to other vehicles, you really should consider all the variables.  I'm with Fred H. on this one -- 5 weight is just not good enough for the C14.  I agree with the use of 15w-40 HDEO in the C14 provided you don't try to extend the OCIs.  4-5000 miles would be a good OCI with them...

I have "NEVER" repeat "NEVER" heard of a single instance of engine damage or premature wear of anykind from using a 5W40 weight oil in a motorcycle. Matter of fact the 5W40 Rotella is the most popular choice for many of us that own thumpers, talk about an engine that works hard and gets abused. Do whatever makes you happy and gives you sweet dreams at night, paranoia will destroy ya.

[Gearhead82]

The point all of you are missing is that the C14 shares it's oil with the transmission and a right-angle output drive to the drive shaft.  This changes the oil equation substantially.  That right-angle output unit has basically the same function as the rear drive unit that specs 80w-90 gear lube.  So.....are you confident using 5w-XX oil in this special environment?  Remember, drag-racing cars have only the engine to lubricate with the engine oil, not a transmission or a right-angle drive assembly that need much better shear-resistant lubrication.

Before you compare the C14 lubrication needs to other vehicles, you really should consider all the variables.  I'm with Fred H. on this one -- 5 weight is just not good enough for the C14.  I agree with the use of 15w-40 HDEO in the C14 provided you don't try to extend the OCIs.  4-5000 miles would be a good OCI with them...

Again, 5W-40 is NOT a 5 weight oil.  The W stands for "Winter."  5W-40 is a 40 weight oil.  15W-40 is also 40 weight oil.  The Winter rating describes how the oil performs at lower temperatures.  All motor oil gets thicker when it's cold and doesn't lubricate at it's optimal level until it gets to it's normal operating temperature.  An oil with a lower Winter number (like 5W-40) will not thicken as much when the engine is cold as an oil with a higher Winter number (like 15W-40).  Therefore, at startup, a 5W-40 will lubricate more similar to as if it were already up to operating temperature compared to a 15W-40, which will be thicker at startup.  When the oil gets up to operating temperature, the "W" number doesn't mean anything anymore.

[stevewfl]

Oil threads rule the earth....wait....







I meant KiPass does

[B.D.F.]

A very important point that I think a lot of people miss- 5W is NOT a 5 weight oil. It is an oil that behaves as a 5 weight oil would behave at -18 degrees C. As the oil warms, it behaves as a higher viscosity oil would behave at each given temperature. A very important thing to remember is that all motor oils will always get more viscous at lower temperatures. Somehow the idea has spread that multi- weight oils do not behave that way but they do- they get thicker as the temperature drops but they do not get AS thick AS fast as single weight oils of the same weight would. So a 40 weight oil is the same viscosity at 100 C as a 5W- 40 oil while the same 40 weight oil is much thicker than a 5W-40 oil is AT -18 C (and, in fact, all temperatures less than 100 C).

Turning over a cold engine at <relatively> cold temperatures puts tremendous strain on the battery, starter, starter drive and also does not provide optimum and often, not even adequate, lubrication. A 15W-40 motor oil is really hard on an engine at, say, 20 F when cranking. A 5W- 40 is much easier / better for the same engine at such low temperatures.

As far as the gear oil comparisons, SAE weight ratings do not cross between gear oils and motor oils so comparisons are not useful. Of course motor oil is not an ideal gear lubricant otherwise we would use it for that purpose. I think the real question is whether or not a 5W oil is sufficient for use in a motorcycle engine overall- it is not useful to provide ideal lubrication for one component at the expense of properly lubricating all the other components of the same engine / transmission and compromises must be made.

Brian

Again, 5W-40 is NOT a 5 weight oil.  The W stands for "Winter."  5W-40 is a 40 weight oil.  15W-40 is also 40 weight oil.  The Winter rating describes how the oil performs at lower temperatures.  All motor oil gets thicker when it's cold and doesn't lubricate at it's optimal level until it gets to it's normal operating temperature.  An oil with a lower Winter number (like 5W-40) will not thicken as much when the engine is cold as an oil with a higher Winter number (like 15W-40).  Therefore, at startup, a 5W-40 will lubricate more similar to as if it were already up to operating temperature compared to a 15W-40, which will be thicker at startup.  When the oil gets up to operating temperature, the "W" number doesn't mean anything anymore.

[ZedHed]

Again, 5W-40 is NOT a 5 weight oil.  The W stands for "Winter."  5W-40 is a 40 weight oil.  15W-40 is also 40 weight oil.  The Winter rating describes how the oil performs at lower temperatures.  All motor oil gets thicker when it's cold and doesn't lubricate at it's optimal level until it gets to it's normal operating temperature.  An oil with a lower Winter number (like 5W-40) will not thicken as much when the engine is cold as an oil with a higher Winter number (like 15W-40).  Therefore, at startup, a 5W-40 will lubricate more similar to as if it were already up to operating temperature compared to a 15W-40, which will be thicker at startup.  When the oil gets up to operating temperature, the "W" number doesn't mean anything anymore.

You are dead wrong-- 5w-XX oils are 5 weight base stocks that change to a 40 weight when the engine temperature rises.  They contain VIIs (viscosity index improvers)  that act like little molecular springs as temps rise.  These molecular "springs" thicken the oil so that it now has the properties of a 40 weight oil. That's how the oil can flow well at low temps and still protect at high temps.  As the oil shears down from wear, it loses this ability and becomes a lighter and lighter oil.  In many circumstances oil will shear from a 40 weight to a 20 weight oil in less than 5000 miles.  This is precisely the problem with the C14 -- between the transmission and right-angle drive they shear the oil quickly.  So while 5w-40 CAN adequately protect the C14 engine when new, will it protect after 5000 miles of heavy use during stressful circumstances? You don't assume the ideal condition, but the most unlikely condition.  All oil can protect engines -- it is the extreme conditions that separate them.

Now Pokey has seen all the failures that can possibly happen to the C14 engine because he obviously has opened many of these engines during his vast experience and he is qualified to say that 5w-40 is fine.  But he obviously doesn't know motor oil.  For those of you that want to learn more -- go to Bob is the Oil Guy and spend years reading what oil industry experts have to say.

[ZedHed]

Qoute:

"Where are These Modifiers Used?
Viscosity improvers are primarily used in multigrade engine oils, gear oils, automatic transmission fluids, power steering fluids, greases and various hydraulic fluids. Most of these uses involve an automobile, and this is because automobiles are subjected to tremendous temperature swings.

For instance, in the crankcase, an oil with a low viscosity at low temperature is needed so the oil pump can push the oil to the top of the engine during those cold morning starts. The oil also needs to be viscous enough to protect the engine when it reaches operating temperature. This is when the use of modifiers in multigrade oil is beneficial.

Figure 1 shows how an SAE 10W30 retains the low-temperature properties of an SAE10 (providing the low-temperature pumpability), while the additive gives it the characteristics of an SAE30 at higher temperatures (providing the protection of a thicker oil film). The SAE 10W30 is made by blending a viscosity modifier with an SAE10 base oil, and there is actually no SAE30 involved."

From Machine Lubrication @ http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1327/viscosity-index-improvers

It took me 30 seconds to find this info doing a search on Google -- the least Pokey and Brian could do is perform due diligence before writing patently incorrect statements ----

[B.D.F.]

Yeah Pokey! Straighten out!

I don't think my statements were incorrect- a 5 weight oil that is modified is no longer a 5 weight oil. 5W-40 only behaves like a 5 weight oil at temperatures substantially below freezing.

Of course you are correct in saying that the wider the range between the stated oil weights, the faster that oil will shear down to a lower overall weight. That is one of the compromises when choosing an oil type, weight, etc.

Back to the beginning of this thought though, I do not believe using a 5W-40 oil in a motorcycle (one with a shared transmission) is inherently worse than using a 10W-40 or a 15W-40 at normal operating parameters including temperature. At very low temperatures, I find a 5W-40 oil to be kinder to the entire engine than other oils with a heavier winter weight.

All of that said, I no longer use Rotella 5W-40 because I do not care for the way the C-14 shifts when using the new formula. I use Rotella 15W-40, usually mixed with Valvoline 10W-40 until winter, when I go to Valvoline 10W-40 alone.

Brian

Qoute:

<snip>

It took me 30 seconds to find this info doing a search on Google -- the least Pokey and Brian could do is perform due diligence before writing patently incorrect statements ----

[Gearhead82]

You are dead wrong-- 5w-XX oils are 5 weight base stocks that change to a 40 weight when the engine temperature rises.  They contain VIIs (viscosity index improvers)  that act like little molecular springs as temps rise.  These molecular "springs" thicken the oil so that it now has the properties of a 40 weight oil. That's how the oil can flow well at low temps and still protect at high temps.  As the oil shears down from wear, it loses this ability and becomes a lighter and lighter oil.  In many circumstances oil will shear from a 40 weight to a 20 weight oil in less than 5000 miles.  This is precisely the problem with the C14 -- between the transmission and right-angle drive they shear the oil quickly.  So while 5w-40 CAN adequately protect the C14 engine when new, will it protect after 5000 miles of heavy use during stressful circumstances? You don't assume the ideal condition, but the most unlikely condition.  All oil can protect engines -- it is the extreme conditions that separate them.

This is only true when you're talking about mineral oils, not synthetics.  With synthetics it's just the opposite.  A 5W-40 is based on a 40 grade stock, and just happens to flow well enough (without VI modifiers) to earn the 5W rating as well.

Quote:

A 10W-30 synthetic oil is based on a 30 grade oil. This is unlike the counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 grade oil. There is no VI improver needed. The oil is already correct for the normal operating temperature of 212°F

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-103/

[Pokey]

@Zedhead...... p*** on Bob is the oil guy and all his know it all flock of oil expert wannabe sheep, allot of bad info and opinions there.

[VirginiaJim]

They'll be no p*****g on people while I'm around unless absolutely necessary and we haven't reached that point....


Timeout.

Timeout over..

[katata1100]

I read a technical paper by Redline Oil that said that synthetic oil (we're talking real synthetic- pao/ester, not that group III crap) has a natural viscosity range of 10-30. To achieve a 5-30 rating, they use a slightly different  base with a little VI added to it. They went on to say you should use the narrowest range needed as VI additives break down and when they do, can lead to slightly higher deposits in the engine. If you live where it is always warm, or don't ride in the winter,  a 5-40 might seem like over kill ( I think 10-40 is good down to 22 degrees but I'd have to check), but it really is getting close to nit picking.
After reading that paper, I thought of the old Castrol synthetic 5-50 oil, wow, that must of had a crap load of VI dumped into it.

[PH14]

Have used only Penzoil 30 wt in all my cars and motorcycles for 45 years, except one

Change every 3000 miles on autos, 1500 miles on motorcycles and once/season on lawn equipment.

Have had a multitude of cars and 27 motorcycles and not an oil related failure on any of them.

Worry more about getting it changed frequently than what brand/type you are going to use

1500 miles?  I would be changing oil every two days sometimes. That is totally unnecessary. Even 3000 miles in a car, or a bike isn't necessary and extremely wasteful.
 

[VirginiaJim]

Me too.

[Pokey]

Me too.

Me too what?

[VirginiaJim]

I'm agreeing with PH14 in that changing oil every 1500 miles is a bit excessive unless that's all you ride in a year.

Me too = +1  It's the new math. 

[Frank ZZR]

I read a technical paper by Redline Oil that said that synthetic oil (we're talking real synthetic- pao/ester, not that group III crap) has a natural viscosity range of 10-30. To achieve a 5-30 rating, they use a slightly different  base with a little VI added to it. They went on to say you should use the narrowest range needed as VI additives break down and when they do, can lead to slightly higher deposits in the engine. If you live where it is always warm, or don't ride in the winter,  a 5-40 might seem like over kill ( I think 10-40 is good down to 22 degrees but I'd have to check), but it really is getting close to nit picking.
After reading that paper, I thought of the old Castrol synthetic 5-50 oil, wow, that must of had a crap load of VI dumped into it.

I've read this in several articles as well. Makes sense, otherwise manufactors would make just one oil, 0W-50 that would serve all vehicles in all seasons for the whole planet, but they don't.