Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: gpineau on May 24, 2018, 08:23:53 PM
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I made a mistake and got the the wrong part and it was an expensive blunder.
So fucking what?
A bit disappointed here. I was hoping for helpful tips on how to fix my broken Connie. But other than a couple exceptions, instead I get a lecture on everything I did wrong.
I consider this thread closed.
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Ok, was the valve damaged?
Did it hit the piston?
Throwing this out as a thought; On some engines you can hold the valve up with air pressure {thru the spark plug hole}, while installing a keeper.
NOTE: {I've done this on 350 Chevy's to install new seals}.
I know it's a different engine, but maybe a possibility?
ie; Use air to hold valve up in place, and if you can find a way to compress the valve spring, it might be a possible to install the new keeper"??
Ride safe, Ted
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I am sorry to hear that Gerard. :(
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That's a shame.
I found the tool you needed last night and coulda sent it to you to use..
Best of luck on your repair..
Ride safe, Ted
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I don't know if it's possible to replace the valve guides in these heads?
I doubt Kawasaki sells one.
Good luck, Ride safe, Ted
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EXTREME BUMMER.. this all lays upon the o/p tho, for using a NON Kawasaki part (where and why it was purchased is all moot now...) what was installed was destined to fail, no question....
the original parts, which have been used for over 50 years, with regards to the 2 piece keeper wedges, and the top spring retainer, have NEVER had a configuration as shown. Im talking all the way back to KZ era... so, I'm sorry you goofed, but it isnt a Kaw issue, nor one that any person can be blamed for.. other than those you bought that p.o.s. excuse of a usable part, from.
this could all have been avoided. A correct assembly could have, and would have, been fine... there are reasons to use the correct parts, and frankly, all i can say is bummer...
sometime bike building, and maintaining, is over the head of those attempting it; its best to ask someone qualified, that has a bac
kround, about these things, before dumping in cash, and praying... and even prayers wont help a bad decision like that one was...
hopefully you understand how to actually inspect a valve stem. to insure it is not bent.. once done, use the correct parts, please... oh, nevermind, i just realized the valve is toast... and also the guide, now.. and question the correctness on analysis of the rod, and piston viability at this point..
as for the valve guides, and seals, they can be found, but after reading this, i will not be responsible for that issue..or that search... sorry, but from what I have read, you need some professional assistance...
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First let me extend my sympathies to you and you're situation. I've made some moves in the past that I regretted to be sure. I did some research on that part number. Here is what I found. The 12009-2065 when googled showed results from lawn equipment suppliers. I also searched for that part number at bike bandit and ron ayers with zero results. I then looked up a retainer at ron ayers and the part number found there for the C10 is 12009-1054. Price found on the 2065 was .87. Price found for the 1054 on ron ayers was 6.48. So my thoughts are that you bought a retainer designed for a lawn mower instead of a C10. Obviously the compatibility information you received was not correct and yielded catastrophic results. I would be interested to hear where that info came from. Once again, I feel your pain and wish you the best. This would be one of those hard lessons that you will never forget.
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interesting
sorry to hear you bought a part, sold on ebay, by someone, who advertised it as "genuine Kawasaki...."
but, if you didnt check the part number of that item, against a kawasaki microfiche for application and correctness, you didn't do so wisely.
https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/kaw/500b25c9f8700223e478f522/valve-s (https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/kaw/500b25c9f8700223e478f522/valve-s)
Not only does that part not have a kawasaki labeled bag, it does'nt even look like the one you originally replaced, which should have raised a red flag... especially seeing as during the install process, you could clearly see the retainer and setup on the adjacent valve sitting next to that.
I assume this is the sellor on ebay, as it's all i can find with a quick search...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-OEM-Genuine-Kawasaki-Retainer-Valve-Spring-12009-2065-120092065-/152408899762 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-OEM-Genuine-Kawasaki-Retainer-Valve-Spring-12009-2065-120092065-/152408899762)
there is no mention whatsoever of its application for use in any specific model in the ad.
what valve, and keeper wedges (collets) did you use at installation?
did you buy new ones? off ebay?
at this point, i'd highly suggest just buying a complete head assembly, with valves, cams' and rockers installed, and use it. I've bought a couple for experiments in the past, and I don't think I paid more than $75 for any of them.
here, I did the legwork for you... 5 hours left on this for bidding...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-Kawasaki-Concours-ZG1000-Engine-Cylinder-Head-Complete-with-Cams-and-Cover/202321825213?fits=Make%3AKawasaki%7CModel%3AConcours+1000&hash=item2f1b520dbd:g:1XkAAOSwNOVa9PMa (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-Kawasaki-Concours-ZG1000-Engine-Cylinder-Head-Complete-with-Cams-and-Cover/202321825213?fits=Make%3AKawasaki%7CModel%3AConcours+1000&hash=item2f1b520dbd:g:1XkAAOSwNOVa9PMa)
more here, but prices are too high...
www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=kawasaki+concours+cylinder+head&_sacat=6000 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=kawasaki+concours+cylinder+head&_sacat=6000)
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I made a mistake and got the the wrong part and it was an expensive blunder.
So fucking what?
A bit disappointed here. I was hoping for helpful tips on how to fix my broken Connie. But other than a couple exceptions, instead I get a lecture on everything I did wrong.
I consider this thread closed.
This is an opportunity for people to learn. I'm sorry the discussion of your issue has hurt your feelings. I think MOB gave you a helpful tip on just buying a used head. He even found one for you. I was curious about your choice of retainers and thought I'd point out what I thought happened. I understand MOB isn't one to sugarcoat things, but geez dude.....lighten up a bit. We all make mistakes. Fixing your bike is not going to cost a lot of money....maybe a lot of time.
Regardless there is much to be learned from MOB and what happens when a mistake is made in choosing replacement parts. I don't think you're going to get the bike fixed any quicker jumping up and down and cussing. Good luck with your bike. If I were you, I'd probably opt for a bottle of my favorite, Jameson Black Barrel, and try to accept the fact that you, along with the rest of us aren't perfect. Cheers!
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Thanks 66,
some folks simply cannot grasp assistance, or admonishment, within realistic realms...
Ditching everything he posted, in hopes anyone else would'nt say the same thing as I did, when they read it, and storming off in a huff, is the most conducive way of thanking someone... not.
If I really didn't care, i never would have given him a link for a head, complete, ready to drop on, for $75 and no shipping.... anyone else would have had the common courtesy to say thanks, at least for that...but nooooooooo....
I even got off my azz, walked into my garage, and actually thought about offering him one of the 3 i have sitting here, for that price... plus shipping...
well, that ain't happening.
:hitfan: :deadhorse: :censored:
there's an hour left on that head, and no bids made... i'm tempted to just buy it, and store it... just because..... outta general principle... ::)
and then send them down to my pal Steve, as core parts... lets see, cams... $65 core, sprockets to mod? $xxx...
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/products-and-pricing
but that would be a dick move on my part.... :D
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I had already found the head you pointed out. He has been relisting it for a the past weeks.
I'm going to refurbish my head. I have ordered everything I need.
I appreciate all the help I can get and I don't mind getting it with a spoon full of "what were you thinking?".
But I choke on help mixed with ridicule.
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you will still be needing the keepers, 2 per valve, COLLET
12011-1003
and also the valve guide seal, SEAL-OIL,RVC2-5.5X8.5X8.3
92049-1062
removing, and installing the new guide requires some adaptive tools also, just tossing this out there, having done these on a number of engines.
best of luck, I still think you would be much further ahead with that ebay head... even then, all you would need would be to replace the seals, if needed, and possibly lap the valves lightly...
at the $75 bidding price, with free shipping, it was a deal...
now he re-listed it, and it will sit at $99.80 for another month
https://www.ebay.com/itm/202325953590?ViewItem=&vxp=mtr&item=202325953590 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/202325953590?ViewItem=&vxp=mtr&item=202325953590)
again, good luck on your endeavors,
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I still have a bag full of keepers and seals left over from the valve work I did on my other C10.
I saw that he raised the price on the head. I actually bid on it twice today but back out thinking another head laying around the garage would just be in the way. I already have two bikes in pieces in there and it is hard to keep things clean enough to work.
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GP, I asked this previously, but haven't seen anyone reply.
Is a valve guide available from Kawasaki to replace yours?
As your valve guide is toast, I suspect the valve seat is also damaged.
I think the parts (valve, seal, guide, seat, spring, keepers) and machining costs will be more than buying a used head.
Ride safe, Ted
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GP, I asked this previously, but haven't seen anyone reply.
Is a valve guide available from Kawasaki to replace yours?
As your valve guide is toast, I suspect the valve seat is also damaged.
I think the parts (valve, seal, guide, seat, spring, keepers) and machining costs will be more than buying a used head.
Ride safe, Ted
I agree with Ted. If it were me, I'd have been all over that head MOB posted on ebay. With 2 connies, you can't have too many spare parts.
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GP, I asked this previously, but haven't seen anyone reply.
Is a valve guide available from Kawasaki to replace yours?
As your valve guide is toast, I suspect the valve seat is also damaged.
I think the parts (valve, seal, guide, seat, spring, keepers) and machining costs will be more than buying a used head.
Ride safe, Ted
YES
I noted above it was, and he did find and post that p/n, but he wants to take on the replacement.
that being said, the steps are not cheap, or really simple...
any new guide must be reamed, using Kaw reamer 57001-1079.. especially a new guide as the action of pressing it in, reduces the internal diameter, and once in place must be reamed (even tho the slip fit of the valve stem and guide seems fine when you are holding both loose parts...) (but they also specify even reaming the original guides before installing valves, to remove any knicks or burrs..), also, to remove and install the guide, you will need Kaw valve gude arbor 57001-1021, to correctly and safely remove and reinstall the new guide to preclude damage... those 2 tools alone break the bank..
$140+
https://tinyurl.com/y9a2g54l
so as I say, it isn't a simple "pop one out, pop a new one in, done" thing.
then, you have to heat the head, in a localized manner around the guide, to about 300*F, to remove the guide' and again to install the new one..
The seat however, is not really user serviceable, and without critical measurement, to see if it could be slightly re-cut (again, some expensive Kaw specific tools...), and the new valve re-lapped in, without exceeding the nominal service limits of diameter and depth, its a gamble.. even then, it becomes necessary to remove some stock from the end of the stem then, to bring the new valve to an overall length, to function with the keepers and spring retainer combo, and prevent another failure.
I've done guides, but only for reasons of internal wear to reduce oil consumption, and install new seals.., not a catastrophic valve failure, replace,
even with my skills, and accumulated tools, I would have simply bought the head when it was $75,(which WAS totally complete, top to bottom, and even had a nice looking cam cover, with the reeds and covers in place..) removed the cams, rockers, and loose parts, from the bad head he had, boxed them up for sale or future use and taken the head into the scrap yard for beer money. People here, and on the COG forum are always willing to buy cams, rockers and such...an actual profit could have been seen, selling off the used parts.
I suppose I understand somewhat why he wants to take on the challenge, but I've seen this soo many times I always wonder why, it's not my bike, so I can't say much.
I wouldn't want to be a person that purchased it tho, sometime downstream...
I would by a bike that had a fully assembled, from a running bike, head swap, if I was told it was done.
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I'm also curious of the origin of the selected pictured valve..
I'll go out on a limb' and say it's likely another e-bay find... that was aquired by someone that bought out a long ago, decades gone, dealership, that had some on a shelf... and is now selling odd parts with little or no idea what they are selling.. other than a part number, and a part in a bag.
revised to add:
I went and viewed, and found over a dozen of these there... some people were truthful, clarifying it was "new OLD stock", but most didn't specify.
that p/n and part, should never exist "today", that is one of the original "tuliping" valves, which were discontinued in 1991... 12004-1085 was superceded by -1076, for use in the '86-'91 concours as a replacement.. and was used on pre '07 Mule ATV's only as an "installed item"
also, the -1077 was called out as a replacement valve for '92-'06 models, but that part was also superceded, by p/n 12004-1119 which can and should be used for all year models from '86-'06 now.
long story short, I would never suggest using a -1085 valve, as they had issues... and especially if you re cut the valve seat, which will exascerbate the tuliping valve syndrome even more rapidly. most of those bad valves never made it to 20k miles.
Back when I was the COG tech editor, i would have made a specific sticky post, cautioning folks that while you can find stuff on ebay, it ain't always a deal... I may still do a post of that nature here, because I see this a lot more now...
I'm sure if I look, I can find a dozen sellers on ebay, selling " new old stock parts", like the old clutch star springs, which have been superceeded for decades also.. but yet, people still get drawn in.
I'm not posting this to be condescending, just to make you aware of the part history, as I do know these engines pretty well...
I also posted this, and the tooling stuff, as people asked... like Ted did, and hopefully it clarifies the involvement entailed in something that "appears simple and cheap" to fix.
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To clarify something; I'll admit that I'm one of those guys that loves a project.
Tell me something won't work or can't be done and I'm gonna try...
I'm sure MOB is the same way...
So, {gpineau} I do understand your desire to try to do it yourself.
That said, on this, as soon as the guide was known bad,, I'd go with another head.
Ride safe, Ted
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Ordered the upgraded valve. I like a challenge so I will continue to refurbish the head I have.
Also bought that head we've been talking about.
So I should have two perfectly usable heads when this is all finished.
I need to build onto my garage before she files for divorce.
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Good plan.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Ride safe, Ted
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Got the new head, new valve and valve guide and the keeper installation tool all at the same time today. Only thing missing is the tool I ordered to remove the valve guide.
I examined the head and I am thinking I will use my cams and cam followers. All the exhaust followers and cam lobes are scratched . Not excessively but mine look better. Alsol needs a good cleaning.
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Sounds like your making progress.
Do you have a photo of your head and the damaged piston and valve?
Check the rocker / cam follower / valve seat on yours to check it wasn't damaged by the "hit".
Ride safe, Ted
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That head looks pretty normal, cyl 4 was running a bit rich... but likely that carb setup wasn't spot on to start with.
I wouldn't sweat the scratching on the followers, or minor pitting on the cams, that is common, and really doesn't effect anything for a long time,
You didn't mention getting the guide reamer for when you take on the repair of the damaged head.. did you get one?
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Sounds like your making progress.
Do you have a photo of your head and the damaged piston and valve?
Check the rocker / cam follower / valve seat on yours to check it wasn't damaged by the "hit".
Ride safe, Ted
I had a photo of the valve but now I cant find it. But it was bent pretty bad. There is damage near the seat but I think is just missed by a nano-inch
I think the reamer is a 5.5mm I saw one on ebay but didnt get it yet. I still have a fuel injector project that is in limbo until after I get my connie running again. Now I have a replacement head the valve job is going to the back burner.
Photo of the head damage from the tiny piece of valve guide bouncing around. I am surprised there is not much sigh of scars on the piston. Most of it is on the head.
Photo of the bike when i bought it. It was literally in pieces. Lots of missing parts. It had dropped the same valve. I worked most of last winter putting it back together and getting it running again. I was looking forward to taking it up to my place in the mountains. That's not going to happen for a while longer.
I have a lot of patience although frustrated about this setback, I know i will succeed in the end.
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Found a photo from the first time I replaced this valve. Looks too easy dont it?
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Found a photo from the first time I replaced this valve. Looks too easy dont it?
Omg.
I think I asked about it "looking strange next to the adjacent valve" and having that raise an alarm flag..
I need to save that picture, its priceless...
Best of luck....
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Omg.
I think I asked about it "looking strange next to the adjacent valve" and having that raise an alarm flag..
I need to save that picture, its priceless...
Best of luck....
https://youtu.be/pYO2Hw8g7tc
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Got off work at 2 and had some time to start putting things back together. Head is on, cams in, valves set, cover on, exhaust on, carbs almost....
When You have all the carbs buckled down but one and your feeling around under there and cant find front boot clamp....This is something you don't want to see.
I have infinite patience
Oh and I found the picture of the valve.
Still needs the radiator fan coils installed.
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Ohh Noooo!!!!!
Ride safe, Ted
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When You have all the carbs buckled down but one and your feeling around under there and cant find front boot clamp
oops.
I have infinite patience
Unquestionably
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Thought I was done. Took if for a test run. Idles rough. Revs and accelerates great. When I got back to the house because of the steep rise to the drive way I need to goose it to get up and into the garage. Got into the garage and the clutch wouldn't let go. It was working fine around the block but. No shutting it down. Locked the breaks and the front tire was skidding across the garage floor. I had to lay it down to get the back wheel off the ground.
Somehow the clutch line got an air bubble in it. No clutch at all. I had to bleed the line to return function. Don't know how that happened. Got ready for another test run and saw that carb #1 was spewing gasoline. So now I need to pull the carbs again to see whats going on with that.
This time I did not install the EGR valves on top of the valve covers. I just covered them with metal plates and plugged the hole in the aibox. I noticed this time that the engine had a lower noise than before. By lower I mean a more bass tone that the high pitch rattle it had when I first got it. Could it be the blocked EGR valves lowered the noise an octave?
One thing after another. I really want to get this done so I can get back to my other project.
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Thought I was done. Took if for a test run. Idles rough. Revs and accelerates great. When I got back to the house because of the steep rise to the drive way I need to goose it to get up and into the garage. Got into the garage and the clutch wouldn't let go. It was working fine around the block but. No shutting it down. Locked the breaks and the front tire was skidding across the garage floor. I had to lay it down to get the back wheel off the ground.
Somehow the clutch line got an air bubble in it. No clutch at all. I had to bleed the line to return function. Don't know how that happened. Got ready for another test run and saw that carb #1 was spewing gasoline. So now I need to pull the carbs again to see whats going on with that.
This time I did not install the EGR valves on top of the valve covers. I just covered them with metal plates and plugged the hole in the aibox. I noticed this time that the engine had a lower noise than before. By lower I mean a more bass tone that the high pitch rattle it had when I first got it. Could it be the blocked EGR valves lowered the noise an octave?
One thing after another. I really want to get this done so I can get back to my other project.
wow.
you are seriously having some bad luck here, slow down before you hurt yourself....
insure the systems all function, and take it slow. only make ONE change at a time... test, and go further.
the reed valves you removed, are not EGR (Exhaust Gas Recycling), they are called PAIR valves, totally different in form and function...
"The Pair Valve, or "Secondary Air System" is a pollution control "Passive Air Injection" device, designed to "wash out" the purposely rich exhaust of the new metric bikes in order to pass EPA restrictions for import in the United States and other countries with similar restrictions."
when you removed them, and added plates, you need to completely seal those plates... or even plug the holes below them, and then add plates and seal them.
this relates to your comments on poor idle, and also lower "base" engine tone, which is due to reversion effect, and exhaust gases that prior to removing the reeds, were being completely sealed by those reeds, but now free to migrate from the vestibule they once lived in..
when you did the removal, did you completely remove the other part of that system, from the top of the engine, and also plug the vacuum line that went to it ?, (and if it is a Cali bike, the other associated pollution devices, and associated hoses)?
those things change the way the bike runs, and idles, from prior running characteristics to current reliability and qualities.
as for the carb leaking after all this... likely cause was throwing the bike down on the ground... and causing the float in the bowl, to become wedged out of position... if it wasn't leaking prior to all that....
as for the clutch bubble failure, and throwing the bike down to get it "stopped", I'm sure it was a total panic move... because you were still turning the throttle, releasing the throttle with the brakes locked, would have allowed/forced the bike to stall out by itself..
become familiar with the "RUN / OFF" switch on the right hand switch pod... it would have shut it down immediately, and saved tossing it on it's side, complicating things.
I really do feel a bit sympathetic about your experiences, but slowing down, and focusing may save your life, and that of your project, or at least save some pain.
those of us here that try to provide verbal assistance, because we'eve been doing this stuff for decades, without major pains, always stress doing accurate single changes, focused, and specific, before moving to further changes.
Trying to multitask, and work on 2 completely different bikes, and 2 different sets of building, simultaneously, is technically way to demanding, and will always result in some of the things you are seeing now.
I've done this for decades, so has SISF, and a few others here, but one thing we all share, is a meticulous methodology, never being sidetracked, and focusing intently on single objectives...
so, I suggest you limit distractions, and focus on one thing at a time.
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wow.
you are seriously having some bad luck here, slow down before you hurt yourself....
insure the systems all function, and take it slow. only make ONE change at a time... test, and go further.
What are you talking about? I made no changes other than to swap out the head and seal up the pair valves when I put all back together. What changes are you talking about exactly?
the reed valves you removed, are not EGR (Exhaust Gas Recycling), they are called PAIR valves, totally different in form and function...
I know what they are called and I know their function. I just thought to use EGR as a short hand. Was it really important to inject an emissions lesson here? Everyone knows what I was talking about.
It is responsible for lowered tone of the engine noise. And yes I completely blocked the ports and sealed the metal plates. It’s back to stock now and I see no difference in the way it runs other than popping when you revand let off the throttle..
as for the carb leaking after all this... likely cause was throwing the bike down on the ground... and causing the float in the bowl, to become wedged out of position... if it wasn't leaking prior to all that....
become familiar with the "RUN / OFF" switch on the right hand switch pod... it would have shut it down immediately, and saved tossing it on it's side, complicating things.
as for the clutch bubble failure, and throwing the bike down to get it "stopped", I'm sure it was a total panic move... because you were still turning the throttle, releasing the throttle with the brakes locked, would have allowed/forced the bike to stall out by itself..
Why are you always so critical and assume the worst? I had about a half second to react to an unexpected situation. I did not throw or toss my bike down and I was not on the throttle. I goosed it to get it up the driveway and then let off. When I pulled in the clutch it did not slow down. I leaned right and laid it on its side and slid around in the garage. At any rate it stopped me short of the back wall of the garage.
those of us here that try to provide verbal assistance, because we'eve been doing this stuff for decades, without major pains, always stress doing accurate single changes, focused, and specific, before moving to further changes.
Trying to multitask, and work on 2 completely different bikes, and 2 different sets of building, simultaneously, is technically way to demanding, and will always result in some of the things you are seeing now.
I've done this for decades, so has SISF, and a few others here, but one thing we all share, is a meticulous methodology, never being sidetracked, and focusing intently on single objectives...
so, I suggest you limit distractions, and focus on one thing at a time.
Provide verbal assistance? ???
Your last post provided no assistance what so ever. You have done nothing but lecture me and try demeaning me.
I have only one task at the moment. That is to get my Connie running again. All other projects are on hold until that happens. So your stated assumptions are incorrect.
You are always so quick to criticize and assume that others know nothing about motorcycles and we are amateurs blundering around the garage. I find that attitude arrogant and very offensive.
I have only been on this forum for a year but…I too have been doing the stuff for decades. I got my first Honda in a basket in 1966 at age 14. I have owned, rebuilt and fixed dozens of bikes since then. I have resurrected more than 10 classics in the last 2 years.
I share my blunders along with my successes but usually I don’t get ridiculed for sharing my mistakes.
In the future I would thank you to forego reading any of my post and making any comments on them.
For everyone else, this is a valuable lesson. Don’t cheap out. Use only factory recommended parts
Head replaced, fuel leak gone and clutch hydraulics bled.
My Connie is well again and running great. End of this story.
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Locking per the OP's request...
However, members need to know that if you post something it will be commented on, possibly laughed at, or made fun of. It's what we do. If you don't want that to happen, please don't post.