One thing I think is funny is the NRA made the argument that Obama is being a hypocrite since his kids have armed guards at their school but yet he doesn't think others should have that luxury. Then Obama and his henchmen scream that they should leave the kids out of it and not use them as political folly. Then we come to today where they had all those school kids with him when he made his pathetic little speech. 

One thing I think is funny is the NRA made the argument that Obama is being a hypocrite since his kids have armed guards at their school but yet he doesn't think others should have that luxury. Then Obama and his henchmen scream that they should leave the kids out of it and not use them as political folly. Then we come to today where they had all those school kids with him when he made his pathetic little speech. 

Politicians never miss an opportunity to exploit kids or other groups to their own advantage.  And you're right, "pathetic" is exactly what that was.  Just another double-speak, super-spin photo op.  It's OK for him and Rosie Fat-donell to have armed guards for their kids, but not you.  It's OK for him to exploit kids for his agenda, but not you.  Shame on their parents for letting/making them get involved in that.

...nut jobs and gang bangers, neither of them follow laws so what good does a law do?

Think about it, what laws would have stopped Newton CT?

Good point & good question.
Is Executive Vice President and CEO of the NRA, Wayne LaPierre, right? Do we need to have armed personnel at all of our schools?

If Sandy Hook Elementary School Principal Dawn Hochsprung had a weapon, could she have stopped Adam Lanza from slaughtering those 20 little kids and their teachers? If the Teachers were armed, could they have stopped him? Could armed guards have prevented Adam Lanza from even entering the school in the first place?

 
Sandy Hook Elementary School Principal Dawn Hochsprung (killed)



Sandy Hook Elementary School Kids & Teachers who were shot to death in December 2012

I agree that armed guards in every school is the most immediate response, but it is not the only response.

The Second Amendment, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.", needs to be understood and respected by ALL citizens--those who are armed, and those who are not--before we can have a meaningful discussion about how to deal with the shooting of innocents in our country.

Name-calling, baseless accusations, and delusions only sink us all deeper into the quagmire of inaction. The NRA has some good points, but it also is stirring the pot rather than addressing the concerns of a lot of people in our society. Same can be said of our leaders in DC. On TV, on radio, in newspapers, and on the Web, many are fanning the flames of hysteria.

Were is the honest discussion, the facts & figures, the proper definitions of weapons, respect for the killed, concern for the ill, and justice? Were is the justice for those five & six-year-old kids who were gunned down 10 days before Christmas? Were is the justice for those two firefighters who were responding to a house fire in Webster when they were shot to death on Christmas Eve 2012? Were is the justice for those 12 people shot dead at a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado in July 2012?

I believe that justice for these folks will come from us when we decide how to stop the shooting of innocents in public places in The United States.
Can "The Greatest Country on Earth" do that much for itself?

Thanks Jay and others for having a discussion.

My personal view would not be respected it seems on the forum, so I'll plead the 5th.

Some months ago I had a discussion with the wife of a good friend.  She just could not accept that some people have no respect for laws.  Her take is that if there is a law against something, then NO ONE will do it because people obey laws.  (Oh, yeah, then why do we have police?)   No amount of reasoning, statistics, argument or whatever would get her to accept the idea of "outlaws", people to whom laws mean nothing.  I asked her if she had ever exceeded the speed limit when driving and she said, "Well, sure, but that's different."  Yes different in degree, but still a disregard for the speed law.  She felt she was OK to do that, but I still couldn't convince her that there are people who feel the same way about laws against murder and assault.  I cannot understand her mindset.

We all know that all those scumbags in our prison system are innocent right?   

We all know that all those scumbags in our prison system are innocent right?   

  to this point - I was a corrections officer for 6 years a long time ago. Prison, not jail, big difference. I used that time to study personalities and traits. I'm not a psychologist, but I have a clue about how criminals and insane people think. I've actually been really considering doing a youtube video to try help people understand some of these issues. When you really "get it" you understand how Sandy Hook happened, and how banning the gun completely wouldn't have stopped it from happening. Steve

Thanks Jay and others for having a discussion.

My personal view would not be respected it seems on the forum, so I'll plead the 5th.

I think you are mistaken. Either that or you are using the wrong terminology. I think most folks will respect your views. They may not agree with it, but they would respect it. JMO

I think you are mistaken. Either that or you are using the wrong terminology. I think most folks will respect your views. They may not agree with it, but they would respect it. JMO

What we don't respect is uneducated, ill informed, unsubstantiated attacks.

Were is the honest discussion, the facts & figures, the proper definitions of weapons, respect for the killed, concern for the ill, and justice? Were is the justice for those five & six-year-old kids who were gunned down 10 days before Christmas? Were is the justice for those two firefighters who were responding to a house fire in Webster when they were shot to death on Christmas Eve 2012? Were is the justice for those 12 people shot dead at a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado in July 2012?

I believe that justice for these folks will come from us when we decide how to stop the shooting of innocents in public places in The United States.
Can "The Greatest Country on Earth" do that much for itself?

Lost in the rush to protect future innocents is the fact that hundreds of people a day protect themselves with firearms.  Are we willing to take away their defense?  Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?  We need to look at ways to protect the few WITHOUT leaving naked the many.  Banning semi automatic rifles and limiting magazines are WORTHLESS in protecting people and HARMFUL to legitimate defenders.  It's feel-good legislation at its worst.

Liberals legislate by emotions, and usually very quickly after a tragedy as you'll never see them move quicker any other time. "Never let a tragedy go unused", not sure who said it first, I heard it 20 years ago and it was pinned to Rahm Emanuel lately, not sure if its true. As I said in another thread. Using the death of innocent children to further a political agrenda to pass Draconian laws none of which would have prevented the tragedy in CT thoroughly disgusts me.

The TRUTH of the mater is criminals and nuts who want to do mass killings don't care about ANY LAWS , most of the time they kill them selfs, so these LAWS only screw with honest law abiding people that would never do any thing anyway , so it drives me CRAZY when they say common sense won in NY .

Cuda where do you find these Avatars??

We need to look at ways to protect the few WITHOUT leaving naked the many.

That's a valid point. So, how do we do that?
How do we respect the rights of responsible gun-owning citizens while protecting the lives those who are unarmed?
Is there a balance that can exist?

1) Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook Elementary School shooter) stole his weapons from his mother, who legally purchased them.

2) William Spengler (Webster NY shooter) killed those Firefighters with weapons from Dawn M. Nguyen, who legally purchased them--except that she specifically purchased the rifle & shotgun for Spengler, a convicted felon, so it was technically illegal.

3) James Holmes (Aurora, Colorado movie theater shooter) "legally" bought his weapons, ammo, and ballistic wear on the internet.

These three nut-jobs found their way to deadly armament with the express intent of doing harm.
Now, how do we address that? What can we do as a society to keep unhinged scumbags from deadly weaponry?
THAT is what current events are focused on.
Again, Is there a balance that can exist?

Jay, an answer to your question 'What can we do as a society to keep unhinged scumbags from deadly weaponry?' would bring Peace on Earth and Goodwill to Men. Ain't gonna happen. Sorry.

This guy is SPOT ON.

MrColionNoir: How to Stop MASS SHOOTINGS

Great hat too.   

Jay - have you ever spent time with 

murderers? I have.

sociopaths? I have.

Psychopaths? I have.

Ever seen a psycotic break? I have.

If you understand how they work, you'll understand that you can NEVER balance the needs of society to protect us by denying  a person their ability to immediate defense.

Keep this in mind - these guys were seriously off the chain BUT they were intelligent and had the ability to plan and execute with devastating success.

When you get inside their heads, you might start understanding that disarming the population - in any amount - has ZERO effect on someone with a horrific plan.

 If we REALLY want protection, we must first identify the threat, which means understanding it. As long as the average person thinks people like the Sandy Hook murderer are just like us but "had a bad day" we, as a society, are never going to make any progress in defending ourselves from this type of evil insanity.

If you'll Just remember this, INSANE DOESN'T EQUAL STUPID  - that's a good starting point . Steve

2) William Spengler (Webster NY shooter) killed those Firefighters with weapons from Dawn M. Nguyen, who legally purchased them--except that she specifically purchased the rifle & shotgun for Spengler, a convicted felon, so it was technically illegal.

That's not "technically illegal", it is explicitly illegal.

Here's the form (Form 4473) for purchasing a firearm:  http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?
Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.

and

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer:
For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party.  ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES:  Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr.
Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer
“NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C.§922(g), (n), or (x).
Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer
11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.

Is 'technically illegal' like 'a little bit pregnant'?

That's not "technically illegal", it is explicitly illegal.

tech·ni·cal·ly 
Adverb
According to the facts or exact meaning of something; strictly: "technically, a nut is a single-seeded fruit"

And William Spengler was explicitly nuts! 

Jay - have you ever spent time with 

murderers? I have.

sociopaths? I have.

Psychopaths? I have.

Ever seen a psycotic break? I have.

If you understand how they work, you'll understand that you can NEVER balance the needs of society to protect us by denying  a person their ability to immediate defense.

Keep this in mind - these guys were seriously off the chain BUT they were intelligent and had the ability to plan and execute with devastating success.

When you get inside their heads, you might start understanding that disarming the population - in any amount - has ZERO effect on someone with a horrific plan.

 If we REALLY want protection, we must first identify the threat, which means understanding it. As long as the average person thinks people like the Sandy Hook murderer are just like us but "had a bad day" we, as a society, are never going to make any progress in defending ourselves from this type of evil insanity.

If you'll Just remember this, INSANE DOESN'T EQUAL STUPID  - that's a good starting point . Steve

OK, insanity doesn't equal stupidity; never intended to equate the two.
However, shooting little kids in their classroom, sniping firefighters at a fire, slaughtering movie patrons in their seats, all equal "scumbag" in my opinion.

Yes, I have dealt with murderers, sociopaths, and psychopaths in my 20 years as a Paramedic in the Bay Area: Oakland, a shooting gallery; San Francisco, sociopath and psychopath central. I put in my time serving the public and don't care to be scolded.

Also didn't say or imply anything about denying anyone “their ability to immediate defense “ or "disarming the population."  And I certainly did not imply that Adam Lanza was "just like us but 'had a bad day.'" I am not speaking from ignorance or from absolutism.

Maybe this isn't the best forum for such a heated subject, but we all have this one thing in common: Motorcycles.
At least that's a small bit of shared ground...possibly too small to support such a heavy topic.

Could be there are no "solutions" at this time in history. Perhaps many more of us need to be trained and armed and in public places to balance the odds a bit more in the favor of the unarmed. Maybe that's the best we can do right now.

This guy is SPOT ON.

MrColionNoir: How to Stop MASS SHOOTINGS

Great hat too.   

Seems so simple, doesn't it.  I kinda like this bit too.

The 2nd Amendment