To the collective minds that reside here. ( I could not find this in a search).
The background first, please.
Just got home from a 3400 mile trip out west to Colorado. Bike ran great. Straight home on the slab in 100 degree temps and cruising at 80-90. Washed the beast and parked her. Next day, well:(
2008 C14 26,000 miles. Flies out. PC3. Premium gas from multiple locations. Regular oil changes. Ridden hard enough that I should not be being told what I am hearing.
Started the bike up next day and it made a noise (hiccup?) and quit. Tried to restart and nothing but crank. The electronic dash then acted up (zeroed both trip meters, lost the whole TPS screen (as in gone), imobilizer flashing fast). Cranked but no starting. OK, figured battery. 3 years old. Voltage drop when cranking (12.5 to 11.0 then 11.4). Ordered and received a Shorai and installed. Now it cranks for a while then starts. And sounds like a can of rocks being shaken. Whoa!.
To shorten this, I took it to a dealer (where I bought it and they know me). They now have the head off of it and are telling me that the combustion chambers are so carbon fouled that the pistons are hitting the fouling ( hence the banging, rattling noises) and that some of it may have broken off and gotten lodged under one of the exhaust valves and damaged it.
Now I've been around internal combustion engines since I was 12 years old and understand that carbon fouling can be a problem in many instances but..... a modern 4 stroke fuel injected engine used the way we use them??
Within 26,000 miles??
WTF??
Any ideas, no matter how radical, will sound sensible right about now.
Thanks, in advance, to the collective minds here for any input you might have.
Dean
Brian,
Thanks for the reply. No oil usage at all. The engine idled and ran beautifully before this. And when was the last time you heard of a modern motorcycle engine being used normally having a timing chain skip a tooth, during startup?
After doing some research on gasoline and additives it turns out that todays gasolines do, in fact, leave a lot of deposits in the fuel system and combustion chambers due to the gas companies putting less and less additives in the fuel to meet government minimum mandates for these additives.
I found that on some of the sports car forums this carbon build up is a big problem.
Dean
Brian,
Thanks for the reply. No oil usage at all. The engine idled and ran beautifully before this. And when was the last time you heard of a modern motorcycle engine being used normally having a timing chain skip a tooth, during startup?
After doing some research on gasoline and additives it turns out that todays gasolines do, in fact, leave a lot of deposits in the fuel system and combustion chambers due to the gas companies putting less and less additives in the fuel to meet government minimum mandates for these additives.
I found that on some of the sports car forums this carbon build up is a big problem.
Dean
Early Kawasaki automatic cam chain tensioners had a nasty tendency to fail to extend and allow the chain to skip one tooth (if you were lucky), and Yamaha FJRs are showing a tendency to do the same thing after racking up some miles. I am not claiming it is in any way common but that problem you have is not common either.
Building up sufficient carbon deposits to cause mechanical interference in the combustion chamber, from gasoline alone, in less than 30K miles just does not seem reasonable to me. Heavy carbon deposits usually show symptoms long before they cause the valves to strike the pistons. Again, I am not saying that that could not be your problem but it strikes me as a rather remote possibility.
+1, tensioner would be my guess to start but even then i think its rare to just jump a tooth all at once, every one I've heard of always lead up to it with noise starting softly and building up to a jump and rattling loudly. but theres a first for everything.
did you see the head yourself yet? carbon build up that bad would mean something is not right else where. I'd like to see that.
Don't want to turn this into a "gas thread", but I always run premium to meet the 90 minimum manufacturer's recommendation. I'd rather run 89 mid-grade for the cost savings, but... ...
Anyway, I was told by a GM service manager awhile back that you should ONLY run Shell, Chevron, or Quik Trip (one of the least expensive in our area) gas in your vehicles. At the time, they were the only ones that were rated by the federal government to be "tier 1" gas. Actually, when I switched to regular grade QT gas from mid-grade Mobil and Exxon in my cage, my gas mileage went up by 8%. And that was after 55,000 miles of running the more expensive stuff.
Ok, back to the engine failure discussion... ...
<snip>
Reduced flow results in rich conditions. Regardless, I'd sure use this as an excuse to upgrade to a full system
My .02 in this game of guesses.
<snip>
Fretka
PS I have not imagined or worked out all the possible scenarios of VVT failure but this feature COULD cause issues such as you are experiencing.
Hey All,
Thanks for the replies thus far.
Went to the dealership today to see for myself and sure enough the combustion chambers are carboned up pretty badly. The number two cylinders exhaust valves are stuck open due to loose carbon bits caught under them. During a leak down test they leaked like a sieve. All intake valves are seated tightly. Two other exhaust valves are leaking very slightly which could be fairly normal or they could have some debris under them as well.
We'll know more once the valves are out of it.
I took the head to Bore Tech because Bill is a friend of mine and I trust him with the job of sorting it out.
To answer some of the other questions:
Brian,
It really wasn't a "bang' more of a loud click. So no indication of something catastrophic.
No I haven't heard of modern sportbikes having a carbon build up problem either. Neither has anyone else I know. But, now I know that it is, in fact, the current problem. Just don't know what caused it except it being fuel related.
Back in the sixties (maybe earlier) the Gov mandated that gasoline companies put additives (with a minimum standard) in their gas that would inhibit combustion chamber deposits. It didn't work very well then.
Today the gas companies still have a minimum standard but is even less (50%) than it was in the beginning, so it is even less effective now. They are now more concerned about emisions than keeping your engine clean, except that Shell seems to be attempting to address the issue in their fuels.
Cam chain, tensioner, and timing were all ok.
<snip>
That's about all I have for now.
Will keep you updated as to how this is going.
Dean
The only other thing I can think of is a batch of contaminated gasoline from a distributor. Not one tanker full but an entire storage container. That way you might have gotten quite a few loads of contaminated fuel from the same station over time. ??
Brian