This might be a new one here...carbon fouling UPDATE on page six

[Fretka]

I think we all get it by now, the timing chain was not the cause as the o.p. said that nothing touched. Okay?
I do have a problem with folks being rude because they can hide behind a windshield or a computer screen. No one here, whether they have useful knowledge or just want to join in and help another, needs to have their contribution judged "inane" by another member. A little tolerance, perhaps some respect can go a long way towards keeping this board a friendly place to be.
We all are learning something here, if you know the answer then serve it right up but please, lose the hubris first.

Fretka

[jjsC6]

I been here over double that time, and remember quite a few who got quite a bit better than that, but it requires forgetting there is a sixth gear on the machine, and riding it at or above 4k all the time, irregardless of the speed being travelled.
I don't baby my 08',  but I can say with all honesty it gets good milage when the airfilter is new, and the valves are correct....and as far as aftermarket maps and programmers/PCx adders, i have found no benefit in them providing mpg increases...
This is one of the worst mpg days i got after my tune, flogging the thing 2 up, loaded on that trip: after filling up in Suches Ga., and running Wolfpen Gap both ways...not a wussy road in the least for anyone knowing it.....


my slab milages were well into the 50+ and only recently, after putting on about 10k on the airfilter, have they come down to a 43mpg avg. I am sure a new filter will net me a gain.
I think a lot of owners lug this bike, and loose a lot of mpg in the process.

jmho

Regardless of what you are getting, I stand by my statement that a lot of members report that they only get in the 30's.

As to being here twice as long, I believe that, but not riding a Concours 14.  I've been on since the 14 was not even available yet.  Not trying to argue, but being on twice as long doesn't get you anything in this debate because the bike wasn't out yet - just saying! 

[wally_games]

I regulary get in the mid-40's. This week I did a 150 mile stretch at 75-80 mph on the Interstate where I got over 51 mpg in ECO mode. I've found that "normal" riding in ECO mode nets me an extra 4 mpg (give or take a hair).

I think I'm going to try keeping it in ECO mode most of the time since it is deactivated at over 30% throttle and/or 6,000 rpm anyway. Just wish it would remember the setting when you restart the bike.

[B.D.F.]

This forum goes through 'undulations' now and then until it settles down. When it does settle, it is a very good, informative, polite and relatively gentle forum. A lot of people contribute useful things and that makes the sum greater than the parts. Also, the obnoxious folks don’t seem to find a good time here and move on.

Clearly the OP has an odd problem with his C-14 and we may never understand what was the root cause(s) of that problem. I do like your idea of running the engine fast enough to 'blow the carbon out of it' occasionally. Also, using a relatively heavy concentration of fuel injector cleaner in the bike and then pushing it harder than normal will go a long way to remove carbon deposits even on the intake valves.

But back to behavior for a moment. This forum is rebuilding a user base after some significant changes. I think those of us who have been here right along can help choose what the future of this board is going to be. It seems to be that the majority of old timers who have found their way back will make excellent contributors, as well some of these new folks who are into more complex things that almost any of us (turbos, fuel systems that compensate for turbo boost, etc. ). I for one am very grateful to hear about these things as I find them fascinating.

So please, those who have something to contribute, go ahead and contribute. Those who are going to be nothing but critical of those who contribute, do we really need that input? I know this is a corny idea but let's shoot for the common good and try to make things abound here better than they were yesterday. With decent contributors and restrained obnoxiousness, this place will be a great place to share ideas, bike builds, and all learn a lot together.

Brian

I think we all get it by now, the timing chain was not the cause as the o.p. said that nothing touched. Okay?
I do have a problem with folks being rude because they can hide behind a windshield or a computer screen. No one here, whether they have useful knowledge or just want to join in and help another, needs to have their contribution judged "inane" by another member. A little tolerance, perhaps some respect can go a long way towards keeping this board a friendly place to be.
We all are learning something here, if you know the answer then serve it right up but please, lose the hubris first.

Fretka

[stevewfl]

^^^^what Brian said +1

[PH14]

Maybe the PC3 was set too rich? What kind of fuel mileage do you get? My stock '08 gets 45+mpg at a steady 75mph, mid 20s running hard in the twisties.

+1 I would go with the most likely culprit and that is the one mod that is most likely to have caused a rich condition.

[MAN OF BLUES]

......

So please, those who have something to contribute, go ahead and contribute. Those who are going to be nothing but critical of those who contribute, do we really need that input? I know this is a corny idea but let's shoot for the common good and try to make things abound here better than they were yesterday. With decent contributors and restrained obnoxiousness, this place will be a great place to share ideas, bike builds, and all learn a lot together.

Brian

Agreed Brian,
I suppose that as the forum has been "re-booted" the data that some of us painstakenly have lost will never be seen by those just coming aboard, and that fact seems to be the straw when some longtime members become impatiant with some responses that don't seem pertinant, or just plain speculative. I say this only because of what we have cumulatively already gone over, and over, and over. Sorry if I sometimes do not have the patiance to be gentle, but I have been called out way to many times by people that have just "popped in".

You and I, along with some others here, are among the first people in the USA to stick a bunch of money on the line the day this bike first hit the showroom floor, and have since that date, attempted to relate, answer complex questions, and overall enhance the owners experience with the findings we have made. I don't think we have done a bad job in that respect, but unfortunatly that HISTORY is long gone. I suppose in time, we can re-establish it here, for the benefit of all.

Now, I am still awaiting the answer to the 2 questions I posed, to add some semblence to my understanding of the O/P's resulting failure.

1) was the airfilter ever replaced in the 24k miles of ownership.
2) what were the results of the scheduled valve inspection if it was ever completed, or was it ever done at all?

If those questions are construed as condescending, then I cannot see any reason to ever expect someone to understand the attempts I, and others, have made trying to contribute detailed instruction on keeping this bike healthy.

.....I do have a problem with folks being rude because they can hide behind a windshield or a computer screen. No one here, whether they have useful knowledge or just want to join in and help another, needs to have their contribution judged "inane" by another member.....Fretka

Fretka,
Please don't take that opinion of me. I have been here for 8 years, I have stood in parking lots at rallies and repaired COG member's bikes many times on the road, just because it's the thing I do.
I have compiled data on both this bike, and the original C10, and shared it thru litterally thousands of p/m's, e-mails, and technical discussions here, and face to face with members of the group, and of COG. I do not "hide" behind a monitor or windscreen...Getting phone calls at 11 p.m. to answer questions on how to get someone on the road so they can make a ride or rally has been a way of life. There are very few people here, that I can see doing that, Very few.
My number is and has always been in the COG book for people to use whenever they need help, not so many people on the C14 threads know that, but the c10 people surely do. I made a vow when I relenquished my position as Tech Editor for COG, that I would always be here to assist.... I don't see that from any "Tech Guru's" today. pretty sad.  Seems they have left the building.

farkle on.
tires and oil.

[baddean]

Hey Guys,
While I'm waiting for some more definitive information (waiting for the head to be gone over) I thought I would address some thoughts and questions brought up during the course of this up and down thread.
First off this thread wasn't started as a C14 bash. I really like my bike and plan to ride it till I have to have it towed to a scrap yard. On the contrary, I started it because I have an issue that I thought someone here might have some ideas on.
Thanks for all of the thoughts thus far. Some of them I hadn't considered when I started this.
The bike has always started and run great. No problems there at all, until now.
My fuel mileage for my most recent trip to Colorado from Ohio and back averaged overall 38mpg and, on the stints that were all slab, averaged 46mpg. (not being rude here but I have to call BS on the 50mpg+ on a 2008 C14. I set my trip meter to zero at a full tank then run that tank low, fill up, use a calculator and divide my gallons purchased into the miles run. Voila, accurate mpgs. I do not use the dash mpg readout. ) I'm not familiar with the ECO mode that must be on the newer models so maybe it's possible with them.
No excessive soot in the muffler cap or exhaust ports (other than what would be considered normal)
Initial valve adjust was ok with no adjustments made at that time (12,800mi). We decided that at the next check we would fine tune if nesessary. (was due)
Man-Of-Blues, you did mention something that caught my attention. If the intake valves did need adjustment (which I won't know now due to the engine already being apart), based on what you said about the elevation and downhill coasting, a lot of that was done while riding up and down Pikes Peak and may have begun or contributed to my current problem. I will check into the intake valve scenario but now won't know for sure, but it makes perfect sense except that if the valve adjustments were changing due to wear wouldn't the valves get tighter not looser?
OK, I admit, I overlooked the air filter. But the way my bike runs and starts and the fuel mileage I'm getting I doubt, seriously, that the air filter alone is causing this condition.
I also doubt, based up how the bike runs and the fuel mileage, that the cat converter is the culprit.
I use a FI cleaner every 4-5000 miles at the rate of 6ozs per full tank.
I use premium fuel at every tank fill.
Oil and filter change every 5000mi using Rotella synthetic 5W-40. (don't even bring it up! I use it in everything except my vintage bikes, including my race bikes. And will continue to do so)
Since no one here knows my riding style let's just say that Eddie Lawson and Kevin Schwantz used to fear my presence at the track. (OK, I've dreamed that somewhere along the way, probably while consuming alcohol).
Suffice to say, yes I know where red line is and like it there. My riding style has nothing to do with combustion chamber carbon buildup.
No, it didn't use any oil on the recent trip nor does it at any other time.
As far as the use of additives is concerned, I only use the above mentioned additive at the stated amount.
The other additive that I had posted a link to (STP) was one that I thought addressed my current problem but not one I have tried.
This combustion chamber carbon fouling isn't something new or limited to motorcycles or small engines. While searching the internet for thoughts or ideas on my current problem I found many recent references to this on sports car forums, scooter forums, vintage car forums, etc. Many of them were discussing the current quality of gasoline we have available and how could they deal with this issue in their particular vehicles.
If you are inclined to post in this thread, please read the whole thread before doing so. Many questions being asked are already addressed. Thanks
I should get the head back this week and will update.
Dean

[baddean]

Man Of Blues, Brian, Fred, and others on this forum are why I posted here. I knew I could get some rational thoughts on why I have the stituation I currently find myself in. I also knew I would get some irrational thoughts, but hey, life would be boring without some level of insanity, right?
I seldom posted on the old forum because I feared that by posting, my C14, through association or cyberspace interference, would develope every malady ever known to afflict a C14. Mine has been a great bike and will probably continue to be.
So, with that said, thanks to all so far.
MOB, my previous post and your previous post were being typed at the same time. I answered your questions in my previous post. Thanks for your input.
Will keep this updated.
Dean

[MAN OF BLUES]

Dean,
Thanks for responding, I hope to explain the reasoning of my 2 questions.
First, I appologize in advance if it seemed rude on my part to be curt and short with my response before, it was not out of disrespect, only because I saw a lot of things I would normally rule out as a cause for the current situation.

In my opinion, the airfilter can ad does have a serious result when clogged. The onboard system will always attempt to supply fuel, even when the airflow is not up to par, if the sensors are not reading correctly, an over rich condition brought on by clooged filter will produce an extremely rich condition, and with a PC3, which may or may not be operating in the same manner as the oem (without installing O2 sensors) could in fact make this bike run extremely rich.
The valve adjust /inspect could still be "post mortemed" if they have not already removed them all and the shims, likely it is too late now for that. The valves do not "get tighter", but the opposite occurs... as valves stretch and seat in the clearance between cam and bucket reduces, and in a case of extreme (uninspected) conditions, it is possible for the clearances to completely close, and become a negative number, when this occurs, the cam is actually rubbing the bucket all the time, and holding the intake valve open slightly off the seat. When this occurs, fuel trail is under combustion with this valve still open slightly, and the airflow at the intake will be cooling the charge as it is combusted, creating the carbon you see at the intakes because it is not an ideal seal. Coupled with a plugged crankcase vent, some crankcase pressurization will cause blowby on the piston to bore seal, and will increase the chances of case oil mist adding into the equation. This will not be very eveident as "burning or using oil", it is only a very small amount of loss, but DOES add into the equation of creating carbon.

I have worked on many bike engines where valve clearances were not attended to, and in every case where I found negative clearance on intake valves (valve held open/off the seat) the result was extreme carbon buildup as you describe.
On a Carbureted engine, the engine will perform poorly when this begins, and as the reversion pulse is back feeding the carbs, it will be noticed quite rapidly, not as much so on an injected bike, especially with the secondary flies out. I suspect close examination of the throttlebody, and the intake tract will expose a higher than normally expected amount of unburnt fuel deposits on the throats,which should never be there, further showing this may be occurring.
I hope this sheds some light on the possibilities I can see for the cause.

[VirginiaJim]

Rich, where do you check for a clogged crankcase vent?

[baddean]

Dean,
Thanks for responding, I hope to explain the reasoning of my 2 questions.
First, I appologize in advance if it seemed rude on my part to be curt and short with my response before, it was not out of disrespect, only because I saw a lot of things I would normally rule out as a cause for the current situation.

In my opinion, the airfilter can ad does have a serious result when clogged. The onboard system will always attempt to supply fuel, even when the airflow is not up to par, if the sensors are not reading correctly, an over rich condition brought on by clooged filter will produce an extremely rich condition, and with a PC3, which may or may not be operating in the same manner as the oem (without installing O2 sensors) could in fact make this bike run extremely rich.
The valve adjust /inspect could still be "post mortemed" if they have not already removed them all and the shims, likely it is too late now for that. The valves do not "get tighter", but the opposite occurs... as the clearance between cam and bucket reduces, and in a case of extreme (uninspected) conditions, it is possible for the clearances to completely close, and become a negative number, when this occurs, the cam is actually rubbing the bucket all the time, and holding the intake valve open slightly off the seat. When this occurs, fuel trail is under combustion with this valve still open slightly, and the airflow at the intake will be cooling the charge as it is combusted, creating the carbon you see at the intakes because it is not an ideal seal. Coupled with a plugged crankcase vent, some crankcase pressurization will cause blowby on the piston to bore seal, and will increase the chances of case oil mist adding into the equation. This will not be very eveident as "burning or using oil", it is only a very small amount of loss, but DOES add into the equation of creating carbon.

I hope this sheds some light on the possibilities I can see for the cause.

See....that's why I posted here. Your discription of the intake valve scenario is making the most sense here.
You're right, though, in that now I won't know that because it is already apart.
When Bill, from BoreTech, and I were inspecting the head, the buildup at the intake side was very evident and worse there than elsewhere.
The known combination of lack of air filter replacement (not like me.....really) a power commander or computer adjusting air/fuel ratios accordingly and out of adjustment intake valves (very possible because they were due for another check) could very well be the culprit here.
Sure wish that in the end I will be to say, AHA!!, that was it, but probably won't ever know for sure. I'm going with your explaination, because it makes sense and is very possible.
Dean

[MAN OF BLUES]

Rich, where do you check for a clogged crankcase vent?

I think Freddie had photos, I don't have any....
It's buried man, deep in behind and below the throttlebodies, there is a breather cover on the sloping top surface of the case. there is a 90* nipple with a hose running up, to the left side, and up again iirc and into the airbox (again, iirc)...but I cannot say I have ever had my hands on it because it is sooooo buried.
See page 17-2 in the 08/09 manual
this is from his post over at the Org site:
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,27974.msg115861.html#msg115861
images won't attach...sorry

[VirginiaJim]

Tanks.  Sounds like a 4-beer procedure to me...

[B.D.F.]

On the left hand side of the bike, just behind the throttle bodies and going straight up and into the frame. Shown with the yellow arrow in the photo below:



Brian

Rich, where do you check for a clogged crankcase vent?

[B.D.F.]

I was not addressing you with my post Rich, it was more of a general thought. Good manners cost nothing.

As I said, I have generally found that the more obnoxious people tend to move on, probably because there is little to interest them here. Institutions have personalities and overall I think this forum is one of the nicest around. Even when things get a little sharp things calm down pretty quickly back the normal.

The loss of data from the old forum really is too bad; I actually lost info. that I had posted because I did not have it anywhere else. There was a good deal of data about the charging system on my C-14 that I would really like to have back.

Back to the topic at hand: I have found two C-14s with clogged crankcase breather tubes, both times it looked like a combination of oil and water had foamed up to create a 'plug' in the vertical part of the hose. Pretty amazing really because I would have thought that the foam would have broken back down to liquid and just drained back into the crankcase but it did not. Something to be aware of, especially in the winter for those who use the bike in cooler weather.

Brian

Agreed Brian,
I suppose that as the forum has been "re-booted" the data that some of us painstakenly have lost will never be seen by those just coming aboard, and that fact seems to be the straw when some longtime members become impatiant with some responses that don't seem pertinant, or just plain speculative. I say this only because of what we have cumulatively already gone over, and over, and over. Sorry if I sometimes do not have the patiance to be gentle, but I have been called out way to many times by people that have just "popped in".

You and I, along with some others here, are among the first people in the USA to stick a bunch of money on the line the day this bike first hit the showroom floor, and have since that date, attempted to relate, answer complex questions, and overall enhance the owners experience with the findings we have made. I don't think we have done a bad job in that respect, but unfortunatly that HISTORY is long gone. I suppose in time, we can re-establish it here, for the benefit of all.

<snip>

[stewart]

Great thread while I wait for my flight to take off, always learning stuff about my bike. Sorry can't contribute anything to the specific problem, other than 'good luck'.

[MAN OF BLUES]

On the left hand side of the bike, just behind the throttle bodies and going straight up and into the frame. Shown with the yellow arrow in the photo below:



Brian

10-4 on that shot
the other end with the 90* fitting is the tough one to see/reach to plug back in.
I would assume it would be prone to clogs all along the semi-horizontal run between the spot you showed, and that fitting.

[VirginiaJim]

Heck, you guys are going to cut it down to a two beer procedure...I'm quite disappointed.

[MAN OF BLUES]

Heck, you guys are going to cut it down to a two beer procedure...I'm quite disappointed.

it takes me 3 just to get the courage to attempt getting the bike on the lift......