This might be a new one here...carbon fouling UPDATE on page six

[VirginiaJim]

I don't think it's a bad idea to use FI cleaner before every oil change as it tends to loosen crap up and put it into the oil and oil filter. 

[katata1100]

D
Anyway, I was told by a GM service manager awhile back that you should ONLY run Shell, Chevron, or Quik Trip (one of the least expensive in our area) gas in your vehicles.

That is wrong and stupid and says little for anyone who believes.Fact is that gas is a commodity that is shared among stations and companies. I have personally witness gas tankers make a delivery to the local Chevron station, then drive down the road to the $.20 a gallon cheaper generic station. In my area most of the gas comes via pipe line and is made by Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to a Chevron station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron gas. Go to a Shell station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to Abdullahs Discount Gas, you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Catch a trend here?
As for the carbon, I bet there is a a clogged cat in the exhaust. Rich running will clog a cat. A clogged cat will cause richness. Almost sounds like chicken or egg. With the flies out and different fuel map, I am curious to hear if the dealer will honor the warranty.

[baddean]

This is probably out of left field ,but this thread has me wondering  -maybe it would be a good idea to set up a water injection
system for my 14 .You older mechanic -type guys might remember . Just a small water tank with a hose going to a tiny orifice
placed somewhere in an engine vacuum line . An adjustment can be placed on the hose to control water volume. 

This may sound like backyard hocus pocus , but it works well for carbon removal from the combustion  chamber. Small amount of water is harmless ,but shines the top of the piston like new. Of course , you have to fill the tank occasionally.

Even seen the more adventurous techs pour a small stream of water directly into the carb throat- - quick clean!

We used to do that in the "old days" when you could get to the intake and just hold the rpms up while misting or pouring water right in to the carbs or early throttle bodies. This worked really well on soft powdery carbon fouling. This stuff I'm seeing in my C14 has to be chipped or scraped off. I'm not sure it could be removed with the water injection method.
Modifying your bike for the water injection would surely be a challenge. I would try this first.
http://www.stp.com/products/fuel-additives/complete-fuel-system-cleaner/
I appologize for giggling when I read your post. I was invisioning you in your garage with a complete machine shop setup and more tools than I would ever know how to use and a Masters Degree in mechanical engineering, designing a fully functioning water injection system for your C14 that you might use once every 3 years.
It's the thought that counts and it was something that Bill, from BoreTech, and I discussed. We both decided that it would definately be more trouble that it would be worth.
Dean

[baddean]

That is wrong and stupid and says little for anyone who believes.Fact is that gas is a commodity that is shared among stations and companies. I have personally witness gas tankers make a delivery to the local Chevron station, then drive down the road to the $.20 a gallon cheaper generic station. In my area most of the gas comes via pipe line and is made by Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to a Chevron station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron gas. Go to a Shell station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to Abdullahs Discount Gas, you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Catch a trend here?
As for the carbon, I bet there is a a clogged cat in the exhaust. Rich running will clog a cat. A clogged cat will cause richness. Almost sounds like chicken or egg. With the flies out and different fuel map, I am curious to hear if the dealer will honor the warranty.

I don't know if there is a clogged cat in the exhaust but there could be a small dog or a chipmunk stuck in there
That would be something to look at while the exhaust is off of the bike though. Good call.
I'm with you on the gas. Have seen the same thing myself.
As far as clogged exhaust I would think that it would seriously effect my gas mileage and performance and both are very good.
I'm stumped 
Oh, and I'm out of the warranty on this one. I'm eating this one.
Dean

[MAN OF BLUES]

....Son of Pappy,
Doh!!! I haven't yet checked the air cleaner. .......Dean

26k miles, PC3, flys out, I have to ask a few other questions...

did you ever do the valve adjust?
curious as to what dealer will say about that, combined with not checking the air filter in 26k miles also...yeah, i think that could cause quite a carbon problem.

Are you getting this done thru warranty or out of pocket now?  oops, my bad, just caught that part.

[jjsC6]

That is wrong and stupid and says little for anyone who believes.Fact is that gas is a commodity that is shared among stations and companies. I have personally witness gas tankers make a delivery to the local Chevron station, then drive down the road to the $.20 a gallon cheaper generic station. In my area most of the gas comes via pipe line and is made by Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to a Chevron station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron gas. Go to a Shell station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to Abdullahs Discount Gas, you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Catch a trend here?
As for the carbon, I bet there is a a clogged cat in the exhaust. Rich running will clog a cat. A clogged cat will cause richness. Almost sounds like chicken or egg. With the flies out and different fuel map, I am curious to hear if the dealer will honor the warranty.

I've seen this brought up on forums before.  A guy who drives a tanker once responded that the tanker itself can be sectioned off to carry different gas blends or additives.  I don't mean to sound naive, but legally Chevron cannot say their gas has certain additives (Techron) unless it really does.  I'm guessing that they really are not delivering the exact same blend to all of the stations they delivery to.

Here is a source I just found on a google search that explains it....

http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php

To the OP, one thing that strikes me that you do that others don't is use fuel additives/cleaners.  When trying to analyze a problem I always look for something that is out of the ordinary.  Most people don't run additives and most people don't have carbon build up.  Regardless of how these additives are supposed to help, not hurt - I would do some research on the additives that you use and see if anyone else is having a problem after using them.   Probably not, but can't hurt to do a few google searches (how did we live without google???).

[B.D.F.]

Given enough time, vapor or water injection will remove all deposits in the combustion chamber and leave it looking like new. But it will take a lot more engine running time than you could stand around and drip water into the intake for.

Another way to deal with this problem would be vapor induction with the vapor consisting of a 50/50 mixture of acetone and water. It was used back in the 70's to increase the octane rating of gasoline when it no longer contained lead. A by- product was a wonderfully clean combustion chamber (it would actually clean dirty spark plugs).

But none of those methods should be necessary. You seem to have a unique problem and I certainly would not suggest anyone start to fix this problem because it is not likely they have the problem in the first place. Sometimes the internet can have things get out of hand and I can just see this becoming another piece of C-14 folklore ('Dem guys with dem big Kawasakis have to mix their gas with acetone and put butterflies in their tires!').

Brian

We used to do that in the "old days" when you could get to the intake and just hold the rpms up while misting or pouring water right in to the carbs or early throttle bodies. This worked really well on soft powdery carbon fouling. This stuff I'm seeing in my C14 has to be chipped or scraped off. I'm not sure it could be removed with the water injection method.

<snip>

Dean

[Fretka]

Rather silly question maybe but do you ever rev the bike up, above 8 k for instance (Italian tune-up). Do you have any timing mods done to the engine?
Do you have any aftermarket air fuel mapping devices installed?

Fretka

[xKLR]

Maybe the PC3 was set too rich? What kind of fuel mileage do you get? My stock '08 gets 45+mpg at a steady 75mph, mid 20s running hard in the twisties.

[wally_games]

That is wrong and stupid and says little for anyone who believes.Fact is that gas is a commodity that is shared among stations and companies. I have personally witness gas tankers make a delivery to the local Chevron station, then drive down the road to the $.20 a gallon cheaper generic station. In my area most of the gas comes via pipe line and is made by Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to a Chevron station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron gas. Go to a Shell station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to Abdullahs Discount Gas, you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Catch a trend here?
As for the carbon, I bet there is a a clogged cat in the exhaust. Rich running will clog a cat. A clogged cat will cause richness. Almost sounds like chicken or egg. With the flies out and different fuel map, I am curious to hear if the dealer will honor the warranty.

Gee, thanks for the attack. Makes me really want to pay attention to anything you say after that.

As I said, this was several years ago (2005?) and I definitely was told this by the dealership. Maybe at the time, those were the only ones in our area that so rated. I really don't know, just passing along what I was told.

It seems that TODAY, most gasoline brands meet the requirements for top tier gas. See http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html and http://www.76.com/OurGas.aspx

You might also take a moment to read the link that jjsC6 posted below. I'll even repeat it for you so you don't have to search for it. http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php. This one is pretty informative and blows your "one truck = one gas" theory. Same with the "Tosco, BP, or Chevron" theory.

[VirginiaJim]

Guys, let's keep this civil.  It's an interesting discussion that I do want to keep going. 

[lather]

What were the results of the initial valve adjustment. If there was carbon buildup on the intake valves this would have shown up as loose clearances right?. Before carbon build up got bad enough to cause engine damage I would expect noticeable pinging or pre-ignition, any signs of that on the CO trip. Did you wash the bike when it was still hot from the 100 degree ride?
Did you have the battery load tested to see if it was really bad. Did the bike always start easily until the failure? Forgive all the questions but just looking for clues for this puzzle. I don't think it can be fuel issue, more likely a bad FI sensor causing a rich condition but I would have thought the diagnostics would give a red light and fault code if a sensor input was out of spec enough to cause massive carbon fouling.

To the collective minds that reside here. ( I could not find this in a search).
The background first, please.
Just got home from a 3400 mile trip out west to Colorado. Bike ran great. Straight home on the slab in 100 degree temps and cruising at 80-90. Washed the beast and parked her. Next day, well:(
2008 C14 26,000 miles. Flies out. PC3. Premium gas from multiple locations. Regular oil changes. Ridden hard enough that I should not be being told what I am hearing.
Started the bike up next day and it made a noise (hiccup?) and quit. Tried to restart and nothing but crank. The electronic dash then acted up (zeroed both trip meters, lost the whole TPS screen (as in gone), imobilizer flashing fast). Cranked but no starting. OK, figured battery. 3 years old. Voltage drop when cranking (12.5 to 11.0 then 11.4). Ordered and received a Shorai and installed. Now it cranks for a while then starts. And sounds like a can of rocks being shaken. Whoa!.
To shorten this, I took it to a dealer (where I bought it and they know me). They now have the head off of it and are telling me that the combustion chambers are so carbon fouled that the pistons are hitting the fouling ( hence the banging, rattling noises) and that some of it may have broken off and gotten lodged under one of the exhaust valves and damaged it.
Now I've been around internal combustion engines since I was 12 years old and understand that carbon fouling can be a problem in many instances but..... a modern 4 stroke fuel injected engine used the way we use them??
Within 26,000 miles??
WTF??

Any ideas, no matter how radical, will sound sensible right about now.
Thanks, in advance, to the collective minds here for any input you might have.
Dean

[Pokey]

Are you using Amsoil "scamsoil" by chance?

[Fretka]

As an aside, I once read that the main long distance gasoline pipeline was always kept full and each retailer (Chevron etc..) would purchase a certain volume or time if you will and divert this base fuel stock to it's own facility, then add/modify it with their own proprietary molecules (ie techron,mmt. ethanol).

So everybody here is right!

They used to use a radioactive tracer mixed in with the flow to signal when a change in stock was coming....fascinating!

Fretka

BTW.. if you would like I would be happy to read your current PC map and give you my thoughts.

[KevinW]

Are you using Amsoil "scamsoil" by chance?

Ugh... not to hijack this thread into an oil thread, but what's wrong with Amsoil?

[VirginiaJim]

    Right.  Let's not hijack this thread...much.

[MAN OF BLUES]

What were the results of the initial valve adjustment. .....

So far you are the only other person here asking what I asked on pge 2 of this 3 page marathon of speculation and inane diagnostics......

so I ask again:

26k miles, PC3, flys out, I have to ask a few other questions...

did you ever do the valve adjust?
curious as to what dealer will say about that, combined with not checking the air filter in 26k miles also...yeah, i think that could cause quite a carbon problem.

oh, reading back to the start, I will say it's IMPOSSIBLE for the timing chain to "jump" unless the tensioner was totally removed, and an attempt was made to start the engine, there simply is not enough slack to jump.

38mpg is awefull milage, and is very real when the air filter is clogged. My 08 with a fresh air filter and fresh valve adjust was getting 50+ mpg 2 up, heavily loaded running slab at high speeds (70-90 mph) combined with aggressive twisty running (Dragon, Charahola, parkway etc)on a 2500 mile trip, this was a definit and accurate reslut, as prior to the filter and adjust, my milage had dropped continually till it was holding at 39-40 mpg....One simple service interval may have been the answer to a very expensive repair at this point.  I'd also rule out a clogged Cat, at that milage.

it seams as if a lack of spcified maintainence was the cause of this catastophic failure.

A simple blocked crancase vent, which we have seen a few of here on this bike, could easily cause problems forcing oil and crankcase vapors up past the piston during operation, and add into the feature of this carbon formation in the combustion chamber, but an ill adjusted set of intake valves will be my projection as to the cause, the increased carbon area around the intake side, is a result of combustion taking place during a time when the valves are still open, and thus incomplete combustion and carbon buildup occures. Classic example. VVT functioning will exacerbate this at altitude also, when running hard, and excessive downhill coasting at altitude will further the syndrome.

[jjsC6]

I've been on this forum for three years now and I've never seen anyone report on a 08-09 reporting that kind of mileage except under very rare conditions.  38 is pretty normal from what I've seen people post for those year bikes.

[Pokey]

Ugh... not to hijack this thread into an oil thread, but what's wrong with Amsoil?

It is expensive gourmet garbage oil, the car and marine oils they make might be fine but their motorcycle oils suck ass.

[MAN OF BLUES]

I've been on this forum for three years now and I've never seen anyone report on a 08-09 reporting that kind of mileage except under very rare conditions.  38 is pretty normal from what I've seen people post for those year bikes.

I been here over double that time, and remember quite a few who got quite a bit better than that, but it requires forgetting there is a sixth gear on the machine, and riding it at or above 4k all the time, irregardless of the speed being travelled.
I don't baby my 08',  but I can say with all honesty it gets good milage when the airfilter is new, and the valves are correct....and as far as aftermarket maps and programmers/PCx adders, i have found no benefit in them providing mpg increases...
This is one of the worst mpg days i got after my tune, flogging the thing 2 up, loaded on that trip: after filling up in Suches Ga., and running Wolfpen Gap both ways...not a wussy road in the least for anyone knowing it.....


my slab milages were well into the 50+ and only recently, after putting on about 10k on the airfilter, have they come down to a 43mpg avg. I am sure a new filter will net me a gain.
I think a lot of owners lug this bike, and loose a lot of mpg in the process.

jmho