Valve adjustment question

[Gottaride]

Well firstly Hello one and all. Having lurked here since last Autumn  It's about time I join up and make introductions. Most of my riding is either commuting or multiday touring. The need for higher performance and long haul suitability led me to this site and from there to the Connie. I bought a '94 Cali C-10 last September and rode it home from Winnipeg 1000 km grinning all ...well much of the way. Man it eats up those prairie secondaries    Anyway it's currently residing in my livingroom getting seriously farkled along with a full going over.
Now to the valve question. Using the Kawi Service Manual, Clymer manual, Will England's valve adjustment notes, copious reading of this web site's relevant threads sometime has still got my stumped.
The cylinder #1 exhaust valve activator thing have some play when a feeler gage is inserted. At TDC with cam lobes pointing outwards the cam does not contact the adjoining activator whatchamacallit piece. Clear as mud, right? So inserting a feeler gauge causes the piece to lift with little resistance and my concern is obviously potential misadjustment. None of the #4 valves had this slack.
If anyone can picture this and other insight I'd be grateful. 

[Summit670]

I've always just used the Kaw manual and set the cam sprockets and timing marks where they say and measure, then rotate crank from left side and measure the next set. 

Hardest part of job is rotating the valve cover out from that tight space.  Comes out the left side while carefully rotating in counterclockwise.  I don't take the upper fairing off, just remove the lower mount bolts so some movement can be had.

When installing the pickup coil cover, if you use a gasket, it was said to grease one side of gasket to enhance future removal without tearing the gasket.  I've always used Permatex Blue on mine but it is sometimes hard to let it sit long enough to cure because of the urge to ride.  I've usually let it set overnight with bolts just snug, then in the morning snug a little tighter and go.

[Gottaride]

Thanks Summit for the reminder about letting my sealant partially cure prior to final torqueing.  I had good results on my CB 900 Custom using Hondabond 4 on the valve cover seal cam journal ends.
Looking at that valve gap question now I realize that setting the valve stem gaps should not be effected by the slack in the system due to the cam not constantly bearing on the rocker/"whatchamacallit". What I do have to watchout for is not to allow the inserted feeler gauge to lever up the rocker and give a false reading. 
So here's what I'm going to do and please correct me if I'm off the mark here. Using Murph's most excellent valve adjustment tool anywhere that a rocker is not in actual contact with the cam lobe I'll a use a bit of finger pressure to hold down the rocker when inseting the gauge to avoid any measurable levering.
I'm now curious if the cam lobe / rocker gap on my #1 exhaust valves is typical or perhaps indicates excessive wear or misadjustment.   

[Mettler1]

   If I understand correctly most owners use 2 feeler guages at the same time so the slop is compensated for and you get the same gap for each of valves. Does that help??

   Do you sleep next to the bike in the livingroom??   Don't think my wife would allow that.

[Gottaride]

Negative there Metz on the wife and her making me bunk out on the couch. It does however make for laughs when friends come over and I have them watch " Motorcycle " instead of a oh say a DVD.
Funny you mentioning using two feeling gauges as I just realized the need for that having gone back and forth trying to get #1 exhaust valves dialed in without much luck. Aside from that the slack that I've mentioned is between he cam and the rocker not the intentional and adjustable gap between the rocker and the valve stem end. As it is with each revolution of the cam the rocker not being inconstant contact with the cam will take a beating. Probably Connie newbie overthinking on my part.

[Gottaride]

OK my bad. That pesky gap was the result of either the PO or more likely me in just over loosening the valve adjustment threads to the point that the rocker hung way low away from the cam. Took up the slack and using two gauges put it all right. Thanks. That's an embarrasing first thread

[Mettler1]

  Not bad. One time I grabbed the wrong feeler guage (not metric) and did all the valves. Was ready to button up when I found my mistake!! "If you don't screw up you ain't doin' anything."

[Daytona_Mike]

Just to be very clear, you are not measuring the gap between the cam and the cam follower I hope.
When the cam lobe is pointed away from the follower there better be a gap  because the cam is supposed come off the follower or your going to hold  the valves open all the time  and very bad things will happen. The whole point of a valve adjustment is to make sure you have a gap there.
I tried the 2  feeler gauge  at once but I did not like it. That is personal preference.
I never and many of us never take the side cover off. We use the starter to jog the motor.
I doubt  your able move or even slightly move or lever    the valve open with a feeler gauge. Those springs have a huge amount of force to over come. Try pushing on one. Not going to happen with a feeler gauge.
Set the gap for the intake to .008" and the exhaust to .010".  You should feel a slight scratchy-ness  and no tighter   once your feeler gauge is inserted and your moving it back and forth. Do not worry if it is not perfect, just close is fine.
The Kawi manual is not really written very   well in regards to valve adjustments.

[Stasch]

I just did a valve adjust on Saturday on my '05 project and found a different method that was more accurate and efficient for me.  Here's the routine.

Don't leave the guages all tied together.  Set feeler gauges out in order from .005 in. to .009 in., and keep them in order as you work.  I put mine on a small rolling table that I keep next to me on which ever side I'm working.

I use the starter button bump method to rotate the camshafts where they need to be.  This avoids pulling the timing cover and maybe needing a new gasket.

Feeler gauges have a 'custom' 45 degree bend about ~1/2" long at one end of each gauge.  First use them individually to get an idea of where things are at before loosening anything.  Not that concerned with dual gauge readings at this point.

Loosen both adjuster screws on the rocker in question.  Lay the longer flat part of the gauge underneath BOTH valve adjusters on that same rocker. 

Its a bit of a touch thing, but I got to where I could screw the adjusters down onto the gauage at just the right tension, then tighten the locknut to get at the right clearance.  I use the gauge for the middle of each range for exhaust (.008 in.) and intake (.006 in.).

After hand tightening the adjuster nuts back down, remove the feeler gauge and double check with the bent tab end for a single gauge go / no-go check.  If its good, torque the nuts to spec and do a go / no-go check to verify nothing moved.

This works well for me and takes about 20 minutes to do the actual valve check and adjust.  Don't worry about the time.  Don't be in a hurry and stay focused on being thorough and methodical.

Here's some files I use to help me keep my work straight.  I fill the worksheet out as I go.

Feel free to use any of them if you like:

PDF Checklist
XLS Checklist
PDF Worksheet
XLS Checklist  -  shows one of my valve adjustments as an example.

You can call up the PDF's and print them for use or save them to your PC.

If you save the XLS files to your PC, you can edit them as needed.  There's a template to add additional valve adjustments to the sheet to allow you to keep a running record if you want.

[Gottaride]

D Mike no I wasn't measuring the follower(rocker) gap but I did notice that in the lobe away position with both valves adjusted to within spec there is a gap between the cam lobe and the rocker. This is new to me coming from the CB 900 Custom  shim and bucket set up. My perference now having completed my first C 10 valve adjustment is to stick with the 2 feeler gauge method as one timing it for me at least allows unwanted rocker sideways lift that made for too much going back and forth. Many ways to skin a cat.

Stasch...wow that was a most generous and insightful response, thanks. Next time I'll give your feeler gauge across both stems method a try. Funny after doing just one valve I pulled both my gauge sets apart and purposely bent my dual thickness .178 - .229 gauge which made life a lot better at that point. No doubt other folks will be saving those files you posted. Usually I document each valve carefully and track how clearances change. This run through every valve was within tolerance especially the intakes , typical. The exhausts were all mostly getting pretty tight. Every valve is now set at or just tight of    Kawi specs. 

[Gottaride]

Gotta say how pleased I am with my Connie and finding and finally joint this site. Six years back I borrowed a buddies CB 900 Custom for a "quick spin" at his invitation. Two hours later I called him to say I was two hours away and having blast having riden through the front ranges out to the foothills. Bought the same bike but as a full dresser and joined the  DOHC Honda website. Great people with tons of knowledge and humour. With their guidance and the Honda and Clymer service manuals I taught myself to become a better wrench and fully restore my CB 900 Custom. Toured all over the Western US and Canada on that bike.
 
Turn the page to last summer. Following a friend on her Ducati through the twisties in lower BC interior I realized I wanted to ride better. Funny how a good rider can make it look easy, smooth, flow and grace blah blah. Well what's a fella ta do? Research led me straight to the C10 and by further extention to you fanatics. Hey I guess that makes me an aspiring fanatic 

[sgilbert14]

Just did the valves for the first time today, bike has 32k on it and I have had iot for the last 4k. I do have a question about just how far to tighten the screw for the clearance. I noticed that as I tightened the screw it would lift the arm up a bit. I could still move the feeler around as I would when gauging plugs but just how do you tell when the thing is set right? Bike is back together and seems to run better but it is still in the back of my mind if I did it right or not.

[turbojoe78]

It's sort of " Go or No go" ... if you were trying to set the intakes to .007, the feeler gauge should slide in with no pressure and be snug to the feel.

If you try to fit a .008 feeler gauge there it should not fit.

I set them so the .007 feeler is loose on the intakes but the .008 will not fit, and the .009 is loose on the exhaust but the .010 will not fit.

[Mettler1]

It's sort of " Go or No go" ... if you were trying to set the intakes to .007, the feeler gauge should slide in with no pressure and be snug to the feel.

If you try to fit a .008 feeler gauge there it should not fit.

I set them so the .007 feeler is loose on the intakes but the .008 will not fit, and the .009 is loose on the exhaust but the .010 will not fit.

  Same as Joe. Just did mine 3 times in 2 days!! Don't ask, just something really dumbass.

[Rick Hall]

... I do have a question about just how far to tighten the screw for the clearance. I noticed that as I tightened the screw it would lift the arm up a bit. I could still move the feeler around as I would when gauging plugs but just how do you tell when the thing is set right? ...

The rocker will move on occasion, there's a short compression spring on the rocker shaft at each rocker. So "lift" may not be the proper word?

A former machinist, the proper gap with a (any) feeler gauge is the friction you can exert if you were using cigarette paper as a gauge, and not rip the paper. You should just barely feel the gauge drag.

Also of note. If the cam is ground perfectly concentric, with the exception of the lobe and ramp area, it'll make no real difference where you set the cam to adjust clearance. In real world (for me anyway), you'll find a minor variation in concentricity as you rotate the cam. Like +/- .001".

So, don't sweat the [miniscule] details. Adjust for some clearance, make the clearance close to what the bible says, then go ride.

170K miles on Sam. I use .006" to check/adjust intake, .008" to check/adjust exhaust, at every tire change (10k miles). With the lobes pointing at 1:00 and 11:00 as best as I can do by bumping the starter.

Rick

PS: Don't be a gorilla when torquing down the rocker locknut. I probably use 5-10 ft/lbs max (I should check one of these days), or about the same torque you use on the front brake lever w/o locking the front wheel.

[Uded2me]

d e a d

[Rick Hall]

How many miles? How may valve adjusts? 997cc Connie engines are bullet proof.

You're fine IMHO.

In an ideal world, we'd check/adjust valves when then tangent of the cam apex is generally perpendicular with the valve stem. Discounting any hi-reving, super blown, 120 octane  F1 race engines.

Rick

[sgilbert14]

Thanks for all the replies and I think that I am, for the most part, OK. Still, on my next oil change I think I will go back and check things out again.

[Uded2me]

d e a d

[mdr]

Tried the shortcuts and getting it somewhat aligned takes me more time and messing around than just pulling off the pulser cover and turning the crank.  Took me longer (+1 wk) this time since I had problems getting the RTV to seal, so I ordered the paper gasket and did it 'right'.  Oiling both sides of the gasket before installation should make it come off easily next time so it can be reused.  The other times I've done it with RTV, no problems.  Just not holding my face right I guess...

BTW, I do measure some difference depending on what the position of the lobes is.  Might not be significant, but as long as I've spend that much time getting in there, and as seldom as I do it, I'll take the extra couple minutes.