Author Topic: nailing hairpins on the C14  (Read 12573 times)

Offline Cuda

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 782
  • Country: us
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2012, 10:59:48 AM »
Lend your old friend your Connie and have him do some low speed parking lot maneuvers, throw in some sand, maybe a lil gravel and an incline or two. No rear brake use allowed.

Do you have drop protection installed on your bike?

Gee I could swear the title of this was NAILING HAIR PINS

I guess your thinking about HAIR pins that fell out of your hair while your in a parking lot?
I live on 2.5 acres the back yard is a figure eight road , 1/3 is sand I drive on it all the time.
Old and SLOW                   COG 11405
Gods waiting room Naples
2011 Atomic  Silver

Offline Kinetic1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
  • Country: us
  • I really do have the best wife EVER! 2013 Tuono
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2012, 12:02:58 PM »
Applying a bit of rear brake on the exit as you accelerate is a dirt bike trick that really helps.......in the dirt. I question it's practicality on the pavement but then again pavement is really just high traction dirt right?
No, really, she is the best and I can prove it...

Connie has been sold. Replaced with 2013 Aprilia Tuono V4 APRC

Offline martin_14

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1379
  • Country: ar
  • know who you are
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2012, 02:20:04 PM »
guys, I'm really not sure if I explained the technique properly, so I'll try again...

I never rode a dirt bike and anything with less than perfect friction coefficient asphalt scares me a lot. I'm talking about good road conditions, dry weather, on a hairpin (those tight Z curves going up or down a mountain side, like this). I am talking about that moment between braking into the curve and going on the gas to accelerate out of it. When you brake, the weight is on the front, and when you accelerate it is on the rear wheel. That transition, that weight transference and the pitch change, is the aspect in which the C14 doesn't score very high. It is heavy, the drive train has backlash and the injection is not as refined as it could. It is easy to experience if you close and open the throttle quickly. Cable play magnifies this. It's like those SUVs that roll a lot and between curves they have to change the roll angle before tire contact patches find their grip, slip angle and so on.

Front brake has just been released and my right hand is on the gas now. So, in order to tame that weight transfer and do it less abrupt when the power finally goes from the right hand to the rear contact patch and starts shifting the attitude of the bike, I apply a bit of rear brake. That tames the way in which power goes to the rear wheel. As soon as the bike is [now smoothly] planted on the rear wheel and the rear suspension sag has been used, I release the brake. The whole thing probably happens within a second.
Build bridges, not walls.

Education is important. Riding my bike is importanter.

Offline 556ALPHA

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Country: us
  • 2009 Candy Diamond Red
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2012, 05:47:33 PM »
hmmmm..gonna have to give that a try tomorrow.  I understand exactly what you are trying to explain.  If you make a u turn and stay in the left lane and apply lots of throttle the bike really wants to go skyward. 

Offline Stubby

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver ABS Concours 1400
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2012, 08:09:29 PM »
Martin that sounds sweet I have got to try it!
it's better to ask forgiveness than permission..... So I have been told

Offline wendel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Country: us
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2012, 01:39:16 PM »
All this talk about cornering and I had to go ride Blood Mountain and WolfPen Gap yesterday. Not sure of the technique I used. I do know I had a hell of a time and would have needed bail money if caught. ;D
2012 C14

Offline VirginiaJim

  • Administrator
  • Elite Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11336
  • Country: england
  • I've forgotten more than I'll ever know...
    • Kawasaki 1400GTR
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2012, 02:01:35 PM »
Martin, I appreciate you bringing this technique up.  We should have more of this.  Thanks!
"LOCTITE®"  The original thread locker...  #11  2020 Indian Roadmaster, ABS, Cruise control, heated grips and seats/w/AC 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology U.N.I.T is Back! Member in good standing with the Knights of MEH.

Offline sherob

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
  • Country: us
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2012, 02:04:48 PM »
Trail braking... rear brake.  8)
Rob
Brighton, CO... missing Texas!

Offline martin_14

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1379
  • Country: ar
  • know who you are
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2012, 08:59:49 AM »
Martin, I appreciate you bringing this technique up.  We should have more of this.  Thanks!


One is glad to be of service.
Build bridges, not walls.

Education is important. Riding my bike is importanter.

Offline Barry

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
  • Country: 00
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2012, 08:21:08 PM »
Trail braking... rear brake.  8)

Nope.  Trail braking is not limited to the rear brake.
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Area P full exhaust, PC-V, Autotune, filter, flys out.

Offline sherob

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
  • Country: us
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2012, 08:31:34 PM »
Nope.  Trail braking is not limited to the rear brake.

No it's not... But I'll use rear brake over front 75% of the time.  Don't fear the rear brake.
Rob
Brighton, CO... missing Texas!

Offline Cuda

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 782
  • Country: us
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2012, 11:08:13 PM »

Street Savvy - Motorcycle Trail Braking
Mastering The Art Of Post-Perpendicular Deceleration
By Tim Carrithers,   In the beginning, they taught you that braking and cornering don't mix. Get it done while you're perpendicular to the pavement. Now, after a few thousand miles of seat time, that same approach can get in your way. What if you need to fine-tune cornering speed after the bike is arced in and carving? Welcome to the fine art of trail braking.

Getting it wrong can be painful and expensive. Getting it right can make you smoother, faster and safer by putting cornering speed under much more precise control-especially in the dreaded decreasing-radius corner, or a blind one that opens up to reveal something you need to slow down for. Things change between that first braking marker and the arrival of Mr. Apex. And when proximity reveals a different picture, some deft trail braking lets you adapt accordingly.

As in any braking situation, forward weight transfer helps the front tire get a grip. Once you're leaned over, it's easier to write a check the contact patch can't cash, so don't overdo it. More lean angle means less rubber on the road, but a bit of forward weight transfer also compresses the fork a bit, steepening steering geometry and making the bike easier to turn.

It's a simple concept, but proper execution is complicated because it all comes down to feel. Heavy braking still happens when you're straight up and down, but carrying the brakes deeper into a bend lets you see more of it before choosing the best trajectory. Once you're steering, gradually lighten your lever pressure smoothly until you've reached the apex-a.k.a. the tightest part of the turn. At that point, you should be off the brakes and picking up the throttle for the exit.

Should you find yourself in too hot, or be surprised by something unexpected mid-corner, don't snatch at the lever. Pick the bike up slightly before lightly applying more front brake. You can also add a touch of rear brake, which will help you decelerate and steady the chassis. The front brake might be strong enough to lift the rear tire off the ground when you're straight up and down, but the rear brake is surprisingly effective once you're leaned over. And you're less likely to lose the front end if you overdo it.

When you're done trail braking, don't drop the lever like a hot potato. Easing off the lever lets the fork rebound gradually


Yeah the above sounds great for  a true sport rider , on a race bike, but the Connie is not a race bike and I'm to old to slide on pavement, ouch.
Old and SLOW                   COG 11405
Gods waiting room Naples
2011 Atomic  Silver

Offline Kawi Ken

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
  • Country: us
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2012, 04:35:26 AM »
Rear braking is mentioned in this Concours test also-
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rFY945smxRI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
2009 C-14 Fast Color !
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.
http://youtu.be/jrFJQwYFJWw

Offline lather

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1591
  • Country: us
  • And I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
    • Louisiana Chapter MSTA
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2012, 10:11:23 PM »
I started experimenting with trail braking on the track after my first really slow track day on my SV650. After 35 track days it has become automatic not only on the track but everyday riding on all my bikes.
Nothing worse than having your balls go missing.

Offline Glennn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • Country: au
    • Metric Rider
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2012, 09:47:04 PM »
I find the ABS on my 2012 certainly leads me to trail brake longer and harder than on previous bikes.  Still wash off majority of speed upright but dipping into the corner under brakes isn't a problem.

The linked brakes on the other hand, well, if I'm dragging the rear brake into a corner, so the front is already engaged, not so bad.  It's when in a corner and already looking to the apex to start accelerating, if I want to settle down the rear with a light touch (so with no brakes engaged) then that initial tiny "grab" on the front from the linked system can be mildly offputting.

Not recomended for the novice rider because, as already mentioned, your tires start writing checks for grip they can't keep and while the ABS will prevent a lockup, it won't stop a washout.
2012 Midnight Sapphire Blue 1400GTR
1999 Yamaha Road Star
Canberra, Australia
CDA #390

Offline martin_14

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1379
  • Country: ar
  • know who you are
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2012, 12:40:38 AM »
Not recomended for the novice rider because, as already mentioned, your tires start writing checks for grip they can't keep and while the ABS will prevent a lockup, it won't stop a washout.

That's exactly why I liked the brakes on my old R1200RT. They were semi-linked, meaning when using the front brake lever, a bit of braking pressure would also be applied to the rear, while using the rear brake pedal would not activate the front brakes. Neat.
In practice, it means you only need the lever to stop the bike, with the HECU applying as much pressure as needed in the rear without locking up. For spirited riding, you still had full control on the rear for minute adjustments.
Build bridges, not walls.

Education is important. Riding my bike is importanter.

Offline C1xRider

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 836
  • Country: us
  • Where did all the posts go?!??
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2012, 10:47:14 AM »
<snip...>

The linked brakes on the other hand, well, if I'm dragging the rear brake into a corner, so the front is already engaged, not so bad.  It's when in a corner and already looking to the apex to start accelerating, if I want to settle down the rear with a light touch (so with no brakes engaged) then that initial tiny "grab" on the front from the linked system can be mildly offputting.

<... snip>

 :goodpost:

That's exactly what I was trying to say earlier.

Martin, do you release then re-apply the rear before throttling up?  Or do you just leave the rear engaged, dragging it through the corner until you throttle up?

I was playing around with leaving pressure on the rear until I throttled up, and it does keep the bike more stable through tight turns, but I would expect the brake wear would go up exponentially if I did this all the time.
--------------------   BACK UP YOUR DISKS PEOPLE!! -------------------------------
2012 K1600 GTL 8), 2010 C14 ABS, 2002 HD FXSTDI, 2000 XT350, 1998 C10, 1983 V65 Magna, 1978 HD SX250

Offline martin_14

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1379
  • Country: ar
  • know who you are
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2012, 01:55:17 AM »
:goodpost:
Martin, do you release then re-apply the rear before throttling up?  Or do you just leave the rear engaged, dragging it through the corner until you throttle up?

I was playing around with leaving pressure on the rear until I throttled up, and it does keep the bike more stable through tight turns, but I would expect the brake wear would go up exponentially if I did this all the time.

Mmm... I haven't thought of that. Come to think of it, I do keep my right foot on the pedal all the time; on left turns it's easier, on right turns I might duck my foot a little if I'm leaning hard. But in general, I stay on the brake. Taking to a test driver, he was pointing out something that I should have seen: this is not a technique to brake the bike in the curve in case somethin midturn happens (curve getting tighter, obstacle, etc.). The proper reaction to something like that is leaning further, not braking.
Hovering the rear brake enables one to smoothen the bike's reactions when going from braking to gas.

I really like this discussion. Writing about it made me research and pay more attention when driving, and I'm getting better at it. I guess it's a way to compensate for my lack of confidence when leaning the bike, so I have to look for other ways to perfect the way I take curves...  :-\
Build bridges, not walls.

Education is important. Riding my bike is importanter.

Offline Rasmith

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
  • Country: us
  • Lenexa KS
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2012, 06:14:53 PM »
Last year when I did the Ticket to Ride Event, I trail braked with the N1K. Was very intuitive and the feedback was perfect. Next bike out was the C14 and it was a totally different experience. The control was where I wanted it but the nose dive was unnerving..I still went with the C14 obviously but am intent on mastering the braking aspect on this bike. I have a long way to go
2012 C14 Candy Arabian Red
2007 Vulcan Meanstreak 1600

Offline Glennn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • Country: au
    • Metric Rider
Re: nailing hairpins on the C14
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2012, 06:26:26 PM »
The control was where I wanted it but the nose dive was unnerving..
Look into adjusting the preload on your front shocks.
2012 Midnight Sapphire Blue 1400GTR
1999 Yamaha Road Star
Canberra, Australia
CDA #390