Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: martin_14 on September 08, 2011, 01:27:49 PM
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tittle says it all. Go to 26:40 and look what happened:
http://youtu.be/W6olw5NXGns (http://youtu.be/W6olw5NXGns)
what caused this?
I'm not sure where to put this post but I sure want to discuss what happened to this guy. In my opinion he was not going overly quick and still lost control, and I'd like to know why. Apparently the poster speaks spanish so I'll try to get in touch with him. From what I could find out, it happened between 2 small places called Putaendo and Cabildo, some 50 miles north of Santiago, in Chile.
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Quick couple of looks, it seems like the rear tire lost traction? Maybe the front? There is a puff of smoke there around the tires, but I did not see the brake light come on though. And seemed like he clenched the handgrips, sticking the leg out didn't help, got the wobblies and didn't look where he wanted to go after he went off the pavement on the right. I dunno, scary how a benign moment can turn bad real quick......
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Perhaps something on the road, oil, sand...? He was hugging the centerline WAY more than I like to, almost on top of it. He lost traction and then it turned into a knee slapper. He's VERY lucky that there wasn't a car in the other lane when he crossed over.
What's impressive is how easy his friend picked up the downed C14 by nothing more than the handlebars. I'm sure he was pumped full of adrenalin.
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I've seen this before either here or the other forum, if I recall correctly...in panic mode he gave it
more throttle because of his CrampBuster. Maybe I can find a link to the discussion.
Here it is: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1967.msg23840#msg23840 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1967.msg23840#msg23840)
it was road debris, not a bike problem. I did not pick up speed, just my friend slowed down as he saw me with problem.
Didn´t brake at all, because if you do the bike stands up and stops turning.
Anyway, I don´t remember anything from the accident...
I was going like 140 kms/h when lost the rear...
Just a broken left wrist.
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It looks like a combination of things, it appears the road surface may have changed, maybe gravel or a tar snake right in his line, his body position wasnt great and he may have chopped the throttle, which would cause the suspension to settle even lower, causing hard parts to hit, robbing traction, slides rear tire even more, which resulted in a near high side. Once all that happened I'm sure he totally tensed up, freaked out, and became part of the landscape. I sure hope he's recovering.
His riding companion? The bike first? Really???
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... snip ...
His riding companion? The bike first? Really???
That's exactly what I thought. He starts to walk over to his buddy, then turns back and goes for the bike. Then stays away while working with the phone. :loco:
F.Y.I. advance the video to 26:40 ish, to see the incident.
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I've re-watched this several times and looking at the following bikes speedometer it doesn't appear that
he slowed down as much as the other bike seemed to accelerate. I think I could hear the connie accelerate when it
was in the dirt on the right side of the road. Since he says "I don't remember anything from the accident"
I think the combination of his panic and the Crampbuster made it worse. As for his friend I do believe he was
waved off to get the connie by the first responder perhaps at the urging of the downed biker.
I wish I was strong enough to just pick it up by the bars. :-[
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Kawasaki Concours 2008 live crash in Chile HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6TZAIERrEg#ws)
Another clip of the same, comment from rider is it was road debri.
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Like others have said, you can see what appears to be dust kick up from his rear tire. Also notice he was hanging off in the curves. I've said many times that I think that is the wrong thing to do on the street. It makes it harder to make quick reactions to things that can come up on the street, and it puts your bike off balance. Works for known conditions like a race track, but not so much for the unexpected on the street.
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Couple thoughts...
Either debris on the road, or a tar snake got him.
The wobble was him losing the front, then regaining traction at the front, causing a violent wobble.
He had it saved on the right side of the road, got back on pavement, then went off the left side. NO REASON TO CRASH once he had it saved.
NOTE - he went off the right, and his buddy damn near target fixated and went with him.
Not a good day at all.
Be safe.
Barry
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yeah combo of a few things. body position was all outta whack for a sweeper like that. it was like he was trying to lean while sitting upright while his head was fighting to stay on the center line of the bike. it does look like he lost traction maybe some dit or gravel.
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...in panic mode he gave it more throttle because of his CrampBuster. [/url]
My Crampbuster has gotten me squirrely when I least expected it... It SURE gets the blood pumping.
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I can't believe that lady was trying to steal his boots right after the crash! :yikes:
Kidding.
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Several things led to this result.
Looking at the road and surroundings there would be a pretty good chance of loose debris in the non swept areas such as the centre line and even mid lane areas.
The rear appeared to step out, the bike appeared not to slow down (cruise control?) he target fixated and froze.
The options he had were to heavily counter steer to correct his line once the slide was under control, my guess he has little or no experience of a bike moving around under him and it just freaked him out, this compounded by the cruise control meant he was a passenger pretty much as soon as it happened.
Hope the guy isn't too bashed up.
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His riding companion? The bike first? Really???
Exactly- I was SHOCKED that he didn't IMMEDIATELY go to his friend first. Who cares about the damn bike??!?!?!! And then casually walking around, messing with the phone, it seemed "surreal".
Thank god he was OK. Amazing to go through all that and just have a broken wrist. Please let this be an example of not only good luck but PROPER RIDING GEAR.
As far as the throttle paddle (CrampBuster type), I have one, and I have been worried that it would get me into trouble too. To adjust it so it helps with cruising, it is necessarily in the way of good brake/throttle control. Hmm...
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I am not gonna stand up for the BMW rider but I think he walked back to pick up the C14 since there were already five or six people talking to his buddy, I think he was just trying to clear the road as much as possible. But that is definitely not what my priorities have been when I have been in that situation. Both times I have helped a down buddy there was not a soul within 400 meters.
I think the guy hit some sort of dirt or sand in the middle of the road and he panicked.
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What's impressive is how easy his friend picked up the downed C14 by nothing more than the handlebars. I'm sure he was pumped full of adrenalin.
He picked that thing up like it was a 250 Ninja... :o
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Did anyone else notice he lost a bag before the bike went down?
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Did anyone else notice he lost a bag before the bike went down?
Yes, I did notice that... if it was a bag, which I think it was. The movement was pretty violent at that point, and if it was loaded, I could see that happening. Although it is probably not supposed to.
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When the roads turn twisty, "my" crampbuster comes off.
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I can't see any kind of cruise/throttle lock when in the curves like that. You don't know what is coming up next and you need to respond differently to every curve.
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thanks all for the replies. Most of you really added to the analysis of what happened. A few comments though, since I watched the video another couple of times and, once I understood that they were speaking Spanich from Chile, it got much easier to pick up what was happening:
- the GS guy was told from a man next to the C14 driver (laying on the floor) to go get Kawasaki out of the road. As it can be noticed when he afterwards approaches the crowd around his friend, there was a doctor/nurse (not sure) already taking care of the C14 driver. At least in Germany, in order to get your driving license you have to (among many, many other things) go through a first aid curse in which they train you, in case of an accident, to:
step 1) secure the accident area
step 2) assist those who need help
step 3) call the emergency service (police or medical assistance, if needed)
Step 2 was already done by the bystanders, so he dealt with steps 1 and 3.
- when the GS guy finally takes his helmet off you can see how freaked he was, and that can also be noticed when he picks up the C14 from the floor with ease (it happened to me once). He was full of adrenaline and not thinking clearly. What he did, though, was call emergency services before anything else from his bluetooth paired HTC phone (yes, he looked like "messing with the phone", but he was actually talking with the emergency service trying to be specific with the location of the accident). He actually reacted in a very good manner, I have to say.
- I can't see any kind of cruise/throttle lock when in the curves like that. You don't know what is coming up next and you need to respond differently to every curve.
+1 million!!!
- the "smoke" coming off the rear wheel had to be some debriss and since he was on the throttle that had to unsettle the bike. As some noted, he never hit the brakes; crampbuster in this case played a big (bad) role. Any form of throttle lock would be a gamble in such roads. I wonder how a CC would have reacted.
I think the bottom lines here are clear: no throttle lock whatsoever on curves or less than optimal road conditions; good body position; call emergency immediately.
The reason I wanted to hear what you guys think is that I saw (and then posted) this video yesterday eveninig while planning my trip to the Alps this weekend. On the beginning I wanted to do the Passo dello Stelvio (Italy) and the old San Bernardino Pass (Switzerland), and at the last moment I thought of adding the old Sankt Gotthard-Pass (Switzerland again), but then I noticed in the pictures that people post in google maps that the latter is actually paved with setts, which I'm mighty afraid off :-[ If weather is nice (e.g. dry) I'll probably try it, though.
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Any form of throttle lock would be a gamble in such roads. I wonder how a CC would have reacted.
Electronic cruise like the Audiovox, Rostra, or MCruise will shut itself off if the RPM increases more than 500 RPM's suddenly. They are a lot safer than a throttle lock.
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- the "smoke" coming off the rear wheel had to be some debriss and since he was on the throttle that had to unsettle the bike. As some noted, he never hit the brakes; crampbuster in this case played a big (bad) role. Any form of throttle lock would be a gamble in such roads. I wonder how a CC would have reacted.
I will note that we can be pretty sure he had an older model with no traction control. Some people scoff at the feature, but I think it really is a nice safety feature to have.
I think the bottom lines here are clear: no throttle lock whatsoever on curves or less than optimal road conditions; good body position; call emergency immediately.
Traction control or not, I agree.
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...at the last moment I thought of adding the old Sankt Gotthard-Pass (Switzerland again), but then I noticed in the pictures that people post in google maps that the latter is actually paved with setts, which I'm mighty afraid off :-[ If weather is nice (e.g. dry) I'll probably try it, though.
What are setts?
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Inexperience caused this. This guy obviously thinks he is a sport rider by the way he sorta hangs-off the bike............puhleeeeezzzz, he never once got anywhere near his lean limit. He also seems to think that the paint that is used for road markings has the same co-ef of friction as the blacktop.
The front slips a tiny bit, the rear also follows suit and at that point, the whole deal is over, he was fine, he should of just ridden the bike like normal.
Everything that follows is due to him freaking out, not the tiny slip of the tires. Absolutely typical of someone who never ridden a dirtbike in their life.
He is his own worst enemy in this case.
Fretka
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Cramp busters aren't throttle locks. And I like how everyone is point fingers at the GS guy because he didn't do this or didn't do that when the downed rider is already surrounded by people. Should he have elbowed some people aside so he could be right next to his buddy? I think he handled the situation well. There was no panicking and the road was cleared to prevent any more accidents in a timely manner. What more do you want?
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Cramp busters aren't throttle locks.
True. But still worth some mindfullness due to the placement on the throttle grip.
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That is very true. I have a throttle rocker and every now and then I goose the throttle without meaning to. And that was the ultimate downfall of the guy in the video.
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I hope someday we have simulators to practice these problems without the crash .
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And I like how everyone is point fingers at the GS guy because he didn't do this or didn't do that when the downed rider is already surrounded by people. Should he have elbowed some people aside so he could be right next to his buddy?
To at least see how he was and assure him his friend was there??? Yes, absolutely.
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What are setts?
setts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sett_%28paving%29)
.....while planning my trip to the Alps this weekend.
Martin, thanks for the translation...feel free to take many pictures and please share them
with us.
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Watch the entire video. No offense to the driver, but he has some of the crappiest lines I have ever seen. Looks like an inexperienced rider.
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He's damn lucky he didn't hit that pole.
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I think he hit something like a rock or a bump. Note how early on,at the start, a saddle bag flies off?8
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Watching some more, it's odd how he was leaning into corners with is lower body but trying to keep his head upright.
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i watched the vid a bunch of times. Looked to me like he was trying to get a knee down with series of swerves . Might of caught a tar strip as he was doing this.
Body position all wrong too.
His lines were not bad at beginning of vid but got worse right up until the wreck.
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The following comment was added to youtube by the driver of the C14 in this wreck..
"it was road debris, not a bike problem. I did not pick up speed, just my friend slowed down as he saw me with problem.
Didn´t brake at all, because if you do the bike stands up and stops turning.
Anyway, I don´t remember anything from the accident...
I was going like 140 kms/h when lost the rear..."
Another comment accompanying his video says "JUST A BROKEN LEFT WRIST"
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Inexperience caused this. This guy obviously thinks he is a sport rider by the way he sorta hangs-off the bike............puhleeeeezzzz, he never once got anywhere near his lean limit. He also seems to think that the paint that is used for road markings has the same co-ef of friction as the blacktop.
The front slips a tiny bit, the rear also follows suit and at that point, the whole deal is over, he was fine, he should of just ridden the bike like normal.
Everything that follows is due to him freaking out, not the tiny slip of the tires. Absolutely typical of someone who never ridden a dirtbike in their life.
He is his own worst enemy in this case.
Fretka
Closest verbatum response to my thoughts on this thread... maybe not the "nicest" or "kindest" response to someone that has gotten hurt.
The rider claims he did not accelerate after the slip, but he did not brake either because that makes the bike stand up? When a bike is already upright on the right side of the road, travels all the way across the road upright, and then crashes on the left side of road, seems to me that somewhere on that straight line with the bike upright there would be sometime to brake and regain control of the bike. The right hand turn ahead of him as he was going off the left side of the road was not a tight turn.
No off road/dirt bike experience or sliding experience and the panic afterwords had this poor guy just freeze and hang on until his fate was sealed. I'm glad he only suffered a broken wrist.
JJ
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Foreign country, heavily populated rural area, road lined with steel guardrail. He should have been cruising along taking in the sights instead of trying to make a knee dragger video.
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Martin, thanks for the translation...feel free to take many pictures and please share them with us.
I will post something up on the Rides and Stories section as soon as I sort out the pictures. It was a fantastic ride. I'm extremely happy I did it because I messed up my route (GPS and I have to seat down and have a serious talk :o) and ended up in incredible places. I'll do it again as soon as I find the time.
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Closest verbatum response to my thoughts on this thread... maybe not the "nicest" or "kindest" response to someone that has gotten hurt.
The rider claims he did not accelerate after the slip, but he did not brake either because that makes the bike stand up? When a bike is already upright on the right side of the road, travels all the way across the road upright, and then crashes on the left side of road, seems to me that somewhere on that straight line with the bike upright there would be sometime to brake and regain control of the bike. The right hand turn ahead of him as he was going off the left side of the road was not a tight turn.
No off road/dirt bike experience or sliding experience and the panic afterwords had this poor guy just freeze and hang on until his fate was sealed. I'm glad he only suffered a broken wrist.
JJ
He may say no ,but I swear I heard that thing accelerate after the slide -anybody else ? Maybe faulty memory -things happen fast . Glad he's allright .
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Foreign country? I thought he was local to that area?
Brian
Foreign country, heavily populated rural area, road lined with steel guardrail. He should have been cruising along taking in the sights instead of trying to make a knee dragger video.
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He may say no ,but I swear I heard that thing accelerate after the slide -anybody else ? Maybe faulty memory -things happen fast . Glad he's allright .
That's exactly the same sound I hear every time I watch this video.
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I watched it a few more times and i think ive got it .
There was no debree ... I knew he was putting some messed up imput into the steering ... Im pretty sure he was trying to literally hang off his bike . He lost his grip and almost falls into the road . This make the bike go haywire {well not haywire but it quickly corrects itself from messed up steering imput) for a spit second while he tries unsucessfully to to recover.(climb back to the bars)
Watch again and see if you agree.
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I watched it a few more times and i think ive got it .
There was no debree ... I knew he was putting some messed up imput into the steering ... Im pretty sure he was trying to literally hang off his bike . He lost his grip and almost falls into the road . This make the bike go haywire {well not haywire but it quickly corrects itself from messed up steering imput) for a spit second while he tries unsucessfully to to recover.(climb back to the bars)
Watch again and see if you agree.
I watched it many times too. I am certain the rear tire lost traction. There was no breaking, and I don't think the steering input or body position caused it. The only two things I can guess are either a patch of sand, or an abrupt power change caused the loss of traction during the cornering. The "plume" at the exact instant of loss of traction (and the sideways motion of the rear tire) are what I am focusing on. So if not sand, that leaves clutch, shift, or throttle. I suspect the most likely being opening the throttle. I am no expert in this stuff.
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I hope someday we have simulators to practice these problems without the crash .
Do it in the dirt first, that's where I learned.
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I watched it many times too. I am certain the rear tire lost traction. There was no breaking, and I don't think the steering input or body position caused it. The only two things I can guess are either a patch of sand, or an abrupt power change caused the loss of traction during the cornering. The "plume" at the exact instant of loss of traction (and the sideways motion of the rear tire) are what I am focusing on. So if not sand, that leaves clutch, shift, or throttle. I suspect the most likely being opening the throttle. I am no expert in this stuff.
If you listen closely at that moment it sounds like something is hitting the GS, it could be the GS rider moving around but it could be the debris getting thrown up and hitting his bike.
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At the risk of repeating myself, I think this is a CLASSIC example of someone with no training/experience reverting to the sheer terror response (standing the bike upright and grabbing a bunch of brake and just hoping that he can get it stopped in time is the usual response, but this guy may not have even used his brakes properly for fear of............something...........??
As our military drums into the heads of new recruits on what to do in times of high stress, this fellow did not know what to do when presented with what he thought was the precursor to doom and certain death, so he reverts to the classic deer in the headlights.
Who can blame him as presently there is no easy way to learn (re-program our brain) without being forced to deal with these issues in real life. This video is a very effective advertisement for the need to enroll in some sort of professional accident avoidance school, or, learn it the hard way!
Let's all go out today and practice some emergency avoidance skills.
End of soapbox ranting.. :D
Fretka
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He may say no ,but I swear I heard that thing accelerate after the slide -anybody else ? Maybe faulty memory -things happen fast . Glad he's allright .
Yeah, I hear it too. While he is in the dirt on the right side of the road. Looking at the speedometer on the BMW it seems clear that the Kawasaki is accelerating away.
I just don't think that what caused the initial slide is that important. That could happen for many reasons regardless of what caused it in this instance. It's the failed recovery that's the issue and it just looks and sounds like panic combined with a throttle rocker is not a good combination for successful recovery. I'm thinking if you are not on a super slab then the throttle rocker needs to be in the glovebox. I too am glad that he only suffered a broken wrist, it looked much worse.
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i think if you could slow down the vid you'd see him slip off the bike (his left arm goes down cause he thinks he's going to impact the road) THEN the bike starts the shake /slide /accelerate
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Poor guy when he is defenceless they are trying to steal his boots. Sorry its not funny but I couldnt resist. He must have been in a pretty low gear to accelerate like he did. Looks like the road was a different color where he lost traction from the rear tire, then paniced. Best advice I ever got is the bike is going to go wherever you are looking for the most part. Try avoiding something you are looking at as you are going down the road. Then look away from something you want to avoid. Works good for missing small animals or pot holes.
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At the risk of repeating myself, I think this is a CLASSIC example of someone with no training/experience reverting to the sheer terror response (standing the bike upright and grabbing a bunch of brake and just hoping that he can get it stopped in time is the usual response, but this guy may not have even used his brakes properly for fear of............something...........??
As our military drums into the heads of new recruits on what to do in times of high stress, this fellow did not know what to do when presented with what he thought was the precursor to doom and certain death, so he reverts to the classic deer in the headlights.
Who can blame him as presently there is no easy way to learn (re-program our brain) without being forced to deal with these issues in real life. This video is a very effective advertisement for the need to enroll in some sort of professional accident avoidance school, or, learn it the hard way!
Let's all go out today and practice some emergency avoidance skills.
End of soapbox ranting.. :D
Fretka
+1
The guy in the video didnt choose a good line, kept correcting because he kept getting too close to the centerline and was not smooth. His jerky movement and the likely application of the rear brake cause this accident. I'm sorry, this was just bad riding. This had nothing to do with debris on the road or tar snakes. I hit a fresh deer carcass in a curve at 85 MPH the other night, the part I hit was probably 4 or 5 inches high and the entire carcass covered the majority of my lane. There was a tractor trailer in the lane next to me so I had nowhere to go. Nothing happened. Period. I felt movement, but I didn't panic, I let the bike do it's thing. Physics works, work against it and you go down.
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My observation of the video indicates an old axiom is again correct, "Motorcycles are not dangerous, but a faulty connection between the seat and handlebars can make them extremely dangerous." This guy continually rides the center line, oncoming traffic be damned, same for all left turns, blind curve or not, usually with his body and the upper portion of the bike well over the line. I've been watching people doing this for as long as I can remember, cars, motorcycles, or trucks and am annoyed each time I witness this particular brand of stupidity. If you suddenly encounter an oncoming vehicle in or nearly in your lane you're going to try to get to the right as quickly as possible. Why not be there in the first place? All of us have seen road racers hang off to the inside of turns. They have a damn good reason to, they're racing, riding to the limits of their bike's and their own abilities. By leaning into the turn their bikes can remain more upright and allow them to make the turn at maximum velocity. Doing this on the street appears to be a product of the imagination. In the case of this rider it was absolutely pointless as he never had the bike leaned over very far during the entire video. I assume the cause of the initial slip may well have been gravel on the tarmac. At any rate, the bike quickly righted itself and was therefore back in his control. However, during that brief instant when it was not in his control sheer panic took control of the situation. The left leg quickly extended itself without direction from a brain that was functioning. Then the bike left the right shoulder and was back on the asphalt where traction was readily available. Again there was no input from the fear frozen rider so the motorcycle continued in a straight line to the other side of the road onto a wide shoulder that still appeared to offer a chance of recovery. Because we lost sight of him in the dust we can only speculate the reason he was suddenly getting a taste of the dirt. I think that he suddenly found the front brake, locked up the tire and it immediately washed out and dumped him unceremoniously on his face.
Immediately after the bike was back in the rider's control it should have been turned very slightly to the left in the direction of the road and all would have been well. Any rider possessing a natural affinity for riding a motorcycle would have done this and been on his merry way. Then he had a second chance as the bike was once more back on the asphalt and crossing the road but the passenger, I do mean passenger as there was no one home to steer the bike, sat frozen in fear or panic, take your pick. A squid without this natural ability will not react properly or at all and turn this minor loss of traction into a disaster as this one did. I emphasize natural ability as those without it can take lessons, attend schools or generally absorb information from many sources yet remain incapable of applying the appropriate reflex action to avoid disaster when an emergency arises. From what I have seen of people either riding or driving over the years indicates that the vast majority of those who ride motorcycles and who drive cars do not have the ability to ride or drive their chosen mode of transport with the skill required to do so competently. This clown and many like him should not be riding motorcycles because by doing so, the motorcycles they're riding become very dangerous.
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Foreign country? I thought he was local to that area?
Brian
My mistake. Every time I see a beemer with aluminum bags and a tank bag I think "long distance".