Author Topic: Turbocharged C14  (Read 39185 times)

Offline SpazOnaConcours

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2011, 12:39:10 PM »
Ohhh kay, that'll do. I'll continue to write about tuning, riding, and upgrading the thing here... and write a little more technical build & installation piece in the other forum section. I just ordered a few nuts/bolts/gaskets from Ron Ayers... when those get to my door I'll do the tear down with pictures. Fun Fun. :D

I used to writ a lot of little articles on the SV1K board back when I had one... lots of test 'n tune review stuff. I'll browse around and see what's on this "new" forum and add some other stuff if it's not already there. I love tinkering with stuff.  ;D

Offline rar

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2011, 01:50:55 PM »
You guys are way over my head :hail:  but it is great reading!

Offline SpazOnaConcours

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2011, 02:39:52 PM »
You guys are way over my head :hail:  but it is great reading!

Don't worry... I was too when I started this stuff, heheheheheh. Every time I pass a car in first or second gear now the thought crosses my mind.  :o

Offline Wanderlust

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2011, 03:40:24 PM »
Don't worry... I was too when I started this stuff, heheheheheh. Every time I pass a car in first or second gear now the thought crosses my mind.  :o

I think my bike just fainted with envy...
Madness does not always howl. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, Hey, is there room in your head for one more?

Offline SpazOnaConcours

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2011, 04:49:00 PM »
Down in Monterey it would lift the front wheel about a foot and a half off the pavement @ 70mph in second gear if I crowded the throttle too much to pass someone. Even with the luggage on. And the Significant Other. With the windshield up. On damp pavement.

The whole things is worth it just for the looks you get from people who see that happen. Trust me. Or the guys with FJR's that you meet when do it to them. You get lots of this -----> :nuts:

Offline ZedHed

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2011, 09:32:22 PM »
Oh yeah, 200+ HP is just what someone "needs" on a C-14.  Are you people stark-raving mad?  Why not just buy a beater ZX-10 (or ZX-14) and turbo that?  Much easier to get to the engine and make mods and more aftermarket engine parts too.
"Life is a hard teacher - you get the test before the lesson is taught..."

Offline SpazOnaConcours

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2011, 11:24:18 PM »
....... probably not what you'd expect to hear, but I -do- have a beater ZX10R... one street bike and one track bike. And one of them I've almost finished making a centrifugal supercharger fit. It's a sweet little Rotrex C30 unit... but I've stalled on finishing the crank adapter 'till I can find a lathe or machine shop that can hit the accuracy I need. Well, the head froze and broke on my street bike in our unusually cold winter last year. My half-brain dead ass forgot to put coolant back in it after a race event; we'll call it one and a half to be fair. My 'Beater" was lovingly thrown down the road by a friend of mine, so I've been riding it around al la Streetfighter until the winter killed it. It was loud, ugly, hideously fast, and completely anti-social. I loved every minute on it (see attached photo, though it was black, just the nose cowling was on it, and it had some tasty Sato rearsets when I was done).

As for mad? Probably. I did mention that I hit my head a lot, yes? In all seriousness though, there was a method. I needed a bike that I could really tour 2-up on (I've done a coast to coast in on the zx10, and one coast to coast on my old SV650... and a couple trips up and down the eastern states on my old SV1K). I broke my back a few years ago, so that stuff is getting to be trickier. All that aside, the Significant Other does not deserve that sort of punishment. However, coming from pure-bred sportsbikes to the C14 felt pretty flat. My goal when I started The Project was to have a comfortable, capable bike with the same power-to-weight ratio as the newest super-duper repli-racer on the market (which, I might add, it doesn't eclipse by as much as you would think). Along with that I wanted reliability, low-maintenance, and an uncompromised OEM-like finish while retaining all the sweet handling characteristics of the best all-round sport touring bike for the last half decade. And I'm in it total for a little bit less than the price of a new BMW S1000R.

Make a little more sense?  ;)

(PS: No hate please on the rough photo's... those were both old mock up pics I shot long before I got close to finishing :) )
(PPS: A ZX14 would be exactly the same PITA to work on and get parts, except for the clutch. Lots more clutch stuff for a ZX14)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 08:21:46 AM by SpazOnaConcours »

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2011, 04:04:41 AM »
Characters welcome here.  Let's not anyone forget that, please.
"LOCTITE®"  The original thread locker...  #11  2020 Indian Roadmaster, ABS, Cruise control, heated grips and seats/w/AC 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology U.N.I.T is Back! Member in good standing with the Knights of MEH.

Offline sherob

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2011, 11:04:15 AM »
Awesome post!  MAS! MAS!  8)
Rob
Brighton, CO... missing Texas!

Offline Fretka

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2011, 11:39:05 AM »
The disease has taken root and is spreading!    ::)


Bruce
Wretched excess visited upon an innocent C-14

Offline SpazOnaConcours

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mini-update
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2011, 09:10:04 PM »
Pulled the 'flies out last night, reloaded the base map I had from Fretka, and went out playing around a bit to see the difference. I was expecting a little more of a dramatic difference, but the change is rather more subtle. The whole bike just feels more firm and willing as far as the throttle goes from about 6K and under on the tach. A lot of the "lag" went away, but there is still a little bit of a delay for the boost at anything below 7K on the tach... I guess that's just the price I have to pay for the bigger/more efficient turbine housing option. You learn to ride around it pretty quick though, and it's never sudden or violent enough to cause issue. Accelerating hard out of 1st and 2nd gear corners has pretty much become an act of controlled lunacy, and I don't know what confuses bystanders more: the whistling and howling Connie with the front wheel crossed up in the air whilst still leaned over a bit, or the lunatic cackling that follows just about every time it happens. I've let a few trusted people ride it, and they all come back wide-eyed, laughing, or shaking a bit. Usually all three. Anyway, the 'flies out is a good improvement for low-down performance and makes the bike more satisfying to ride around town, without a doubt. Does anyone make a steering damper for this bike? Preferably one that mounts below the upper triple?

No real problems so far from the set-up... though I'm only at about 2500 miles since it's been on. I had the usually Kawasaki valve cover leak, loose steering head bearings, and mild coolant hose leaks before the install, but they haven't returned since fixing. The engine side shaft drive seal is leaking a bit, but I think that set in before I finished the project. It's not terrible, but I'm pretty certain the dealership will cover it under warranty (talking to them it seems like a common leak). New parts will be in Tuesday so I can finish up the cosmetic parts and tweaking of the install... hopefully all by next Sunday.  Pics to follow, of course.  ;D

Offline martin_14

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Re: mini-update
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2011, 05:16:15 AM »
Anyway, the 'flies out is a good improvement for low-down performance and makes the bike more satisfying to ride around town, without a doubt. Does anyone make a steering damper for this bike? Preferably one that mounts below the upper triple?

would this do the trick? http://www.ohlins.eu/en/products/134/Oehlins-Rotation-Sterring-Dampfer-road-track/

On another note, I can't help a little chuckle when I read about turbocharging a C14 on the "Accessories and modifications" section. I usually would expect somebody telling me about a new GPS or white stitches on the seat cover, but this brings a whole new meaning. Love it!
Build bridges, not walls.

Education is important. Riding my bike is importanter.

Offline SpazOnaConcours

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2011, 09:15:05 AM »
Nope.... that mounts above the top triple clamp.... I don't even know if it will work with the stock bare risers. I know it won't work with the TechMount. :(

Offline Fretka

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2011, 10:33:08 AM »
Prolly some sort of clamp on one fork stanchion with the body/dampertube running lengthwise backwards parallel to the centerline of the bike. Like the old 500 cc grand prix bikes.

The difficulty now is finding adjectives to describe the performance to other folks!

7k seems kinda high for spool-up. Is this an adjustable boost compressor ? Did you make the collector venturi neck-down as it enters the flange/housing of the compressor? (to speed up flow). Any real back pressure from the turbine back?

How many #'s are ya runnin? Just a suggestion, but 8 is max in my book as any more will just spin-up the rear at every opportunity.
After you have trimmed the map would you send me a copy?  I don't want to run it but I'd like to compare it to my sea-level map.

What trims is the AT making to the base map, pulling fuel I should imagine. What's idle/ warmup doing?

Remember to do the wingnut short piece of allen wrench to the fuel pump, works fine.
If you want to do the air cooled head business let me know, it seems to drop tank temps substantially. Have you encountered any pre-ig yet?

Clutch is holding okay?

Btw... after doing some stuff with airflow I got the airbox temps to read 20 F. above ambient which is not bad for not using an intercooler.

Have fun and start a tire-fund !

Fretka
Wretched excess visited upon an innocent C-14

Offline SpazOnaConcours

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2011, 06:53:07 PM »
...something like that, or like the modern suzuki style damper that bolts the headstock and the bottom triple (or the bottom of the upper triple... I've seen it work both ways). I might be able to get a rotary damper to work, I'll just have to move the techmount. fun fun.

The bike is spools far below 7K, it's just that the off/on turbo lag is completely gone AFTER 7K. Below that you get a little delay before the power comes in.... after the 7K thresh hold boost response to 7psi is almost instantaneous. I'm happy with that honestly. I'm only at 7psi right now, and I'll need a controller or orifice restriction of some sort to get it any higher. I'm not in a huge hurry though... 7 is good for now. :) My tire is surprisingly well planted and slip free, though I'll will probably have killed a new Pirelli Angel in less than 4K miles. Though fresh oily pavement, dirt, dust, wet, and anything but the oldest of old paint lines will let it light up if I'm too rough on it.

I found that the map ran damn near the same at sea level as it does up here a mile high. I believe that the stock ECU accounts for altitude with an ambient pressure sensor and adjusts pulse width accordingly. Seeing as how the only real difference in fueling is coming from the rise in pressure from the regulator, the percent of increase (or in my case, decrease) of fuel for altitude is pretty much spot on like it would be minus the turbo, ie: the change is linear for differences in altitude. The base map on the PCV is just that... a way to trim the map around to get it exactly where you want it. I'll play with it more this week, but it's more or less the same map you sent me. :) It all comes down to how much rising rate & base fuel pressure you run that makes the big impact. I just reloaded the base map, so I don't know what the AT is really doing yet. I think I need a -smidge- more fuel near redline (AFR is 12.2ish), and a little bit out again for sub 15% throttle openings. I've reconsidered leaning up the map a little in most of the areas.... fuel mileage really isn't bad enough to warrant the effort or the dent to peace of mind. That, and with the flies removed your map is much less rich in certain places than it was... and it feels great (if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?). Idle and warmup are good, but the temps here haven't been below the high 70's for a while.... I'll have to wait 'till November before I get a good idea there. :)

Clutch is holding. I'm still pretty shocked at that, heheh. I just found out today how really really really wacked out the gearing is in 6th: with more than 180 showing on the speedo it drops the revs into the low 7K range. Lunacy. I wish I could re-gear just 6th gear down a touch. I think it will pull 200-205mph if I get enough road, but the high altitude and the HUGE gear make it something I haven't been able to explore yet. That, and the seat-tenting little wobble it develops over one fiddy.

I -DO- want to see some shots of what you did with your air routing. I'm re-routing everything this coming weekend, so it would be a good time to get an idea of my options. :) I'm going to pull plugs out too and take a gander, but I honestly haven't felt anything scary/weird/odd enough to think I've crossed the pre-ignition or detonation boundary. Ambient air temps are pretty crazy up here though, and boost really exaggerates the fact..... sure won't hurt to check.

So much to do... so much to do... :)


PS: 20 degrees? That's honestly amazing. I know the actual air temp under 8psi would be higher, but keeping the plenum/fame itself down that cool is fantastic. You have my attention. :)

Offline Fretka

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2011, 08:07:07 PM »
It took me quite awhile to build that map mostly because I was being very cautious to pull fuel out and would suffer changes of judgement from time to time! With the different dynamics due to your compressor, you could probably stay leaner, further up the rev range as well. The other difficulty was finding a place to run the beast at high revs and boost in order to trim the base map, we're talkin some very high speeds as you know! Try to find a good trim manually below 5% throttle as exhaust flow is turbulent and the lambda sensor does not read correctly, trimming in that range is best done by the main map and NOT the accelerator pump option. Having said that, the pump option is good only for that last bit of obtaining perfect throttle response. I also have a graph I made of voltage/engine temp. values from the sensor if you want to know and play with the A/T options.

I instrumented the interior of the air-box and read outside temps at the same time in order to get good data, so my method seems to work well and their may(of-course) be other methods.

Basically I used the fairing intakes and some flexible thin wall tubing about 2" and channeled cool air to flow directly to the area above the cam cover and let it exhaust where it may. I then removed all the plastic air dams on the left side under the fairing of course, and gave cool air a straight shot beside the radiator over the charge tube and out the vents. I think I also removed some plastic pieces from the top of the radiator/bottom of steering head area as well. Makes for a big difference in keeping the frame/air-box/gas-tank/my-ass cool. I also am running an elbow to a straight piece of 2" tubing situated vertically and about 16" long to the scroll intake, this tube is also in the airstream just next to the charge-tube. It keeps the turbo intake from vacuuming the city streets that way.  :D Also... be VERY careful if you use any mesh over the scroll intake as it WILL limit boost and possibly come out the tail-pipe one day! :o

Fretka
Wretched excess visited upon an innocent C-14

Offline SpazOnaConcours

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Rumors of my demise were greatly exaggerated....
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2011, 03:46:46 PM »
Time flies, eh?

Sorry about not finishing up the write up.. life attacked and required just about all of my attention. I'll get back on it ASAP. :) The bike still works, though the cheap scavenge pump did give up after about 4.5k miles. It turns out that many people consider the one I was using to be garbage and avoided like a rabbid badger with syphilis... gotta love the lessons you learn the hard way. A month later and the burnt oil smell has finally started to fade.......

I've made a DIY adjustable boost controller, and now have it working in the 8-9psi range. Aside from that and a much-improved (read: larger and expesive) scavenge pump, I haven't had any time or funds to do much else. But the bike has about 12K miles on it now and it's running like a champ. I did graft a quickshifter from my race bike, but it isn't nearly as smooth or rewarding as it is on pure-bred sportbike with much more appropriate gear ratios. Makes me wonder if ZX14 transmission parts would interchange.........  :o

Sooo.... back to working on it then. I'll borrow a camera this weekend and put up some videos. Should be fun. :)

Offline Frontier

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2011, 10:37:11 AM »
Oh yeah, 200+ HP is just what someone "needs" on a C-14.

I require this turbo C14 mod in my life.

Offline Fretka

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2011, 11:29:06 AM »
Great to see you are back!


Fretka
Wretched excess visited upon an innocent C-14

Offline SpazOnaConcours

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Re: Turbocharged C14
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2011, 02:54:25 PM »
I require this turbo C14 mod in my life.

.....it's frighteningly easy if you can afford it.  ;D I can pretty much promise that the only thing you will regret is how badly it mangles rear tires.