Removing the secondary flies-Question

[Rembrant]

Not completely true.  On the 2nd gen, the ECO mode is retained, and that is a completely separate map.  Of course, the USER can't just change either map  to something else without going through the whole flash procedure (and I am not sure Guhl will even offer the option to flash a custom map or even change the ECO map).  For those not wanting to make other major performance changes (full exhaust, tb, intakes, etc), there should be little need for additional maps, however.

I think that Jay was referring to the ability to have two custom maps....where as a reflash just gives you one custom map. I used two of Fuelmoto's PC maps in my previous C14, and their ECO fuel map is actually quite good. This is a very nice option for the first gen C14's.

Like I said above, an ECU reflash is a good no-fuss option that is perfectly fine for most people. Power Commanders are a good option too...it really just depends on what your needs and goals are.

[maxtog]

Yes true. You can store two maps on the pcV and use a simple I/O toggle switch to change between the two.

I was not saying that you can't store multiple maps with a PCV.  That *is* true.

He said you can't have multiple maps with the reflash option.  And that is not correct, and I explained why.  On a 2nd gen, you can switch between the two maps, on the fly, with the stock handlebar button.  Just pointing that out.

[gPink]

ok, got it

[Rembrant]

That is not the default of the Guhl flash, but you CAN request the flies to be opened almost immediately if you choose to and he will flash it that way.  HOWEVER, there is a slight advantage of keeping the flies opening a little delayed on low throttle to keep a little more tameness.  Again, everyone will have their own opinion, but it is interesting that Guhl's opinion is to keep a little flies at the start... and I do trust he knows what he is doing and choosing the best option for the most applications/people.

The flies actually can't be opened "almost immediately", as the secondary butterfly actuator will hit the throttle linkage. You could probably open them up around 1800+ RPM or so, but they're fully open by 3000 RPM or earlier in his flashes anyway. There wouldn't be much benefit in opening them any earlier than they already are. I suspect some of it is snake oil, and what owners don't know won't hurt them;).

The main reason tuners are not opening the flies 100% immediately is because they can't without it affecting the throttle mechanism. This has nothing to do with the butterfly plates themselves by the way....just the secondary butterfly actuator. So, you have to think of it from a mechanical point of view, and not flow, to know why the ECU tuners are not opening the flies earlier than they are.

[spinned]

I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm.  I guess the flies go open after that anyway.  So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not.   

[maxtog]

The flies actually can't be opened "almost immediately", as the secondary butterfly actuator will hit the throttle linkage. You could probably open them up around 1800+ RPM or so, but they're fully open by 3000 RPM or earlier in his flashes anyway. There wouldn't be much benefit in opening them any earlier than they already are. I suspect some of it is snake oil, and what owners don't know won't hurt them;).

Good information to know; thanks.

[maxtog]

I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm.  I guess the flies go open after that anyway.  So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not.   

I doubt there are very many of us that never drive over 4,000 RPM.  I am certainly no speed demon, but I almost never shift before around 3.5K and most of the time it is over 4.  Spirited or not, if you want to get the bike moving, you start at below idle RPM every time you want to accelerate from a stop or crawl.   From my understanding the factory flies are also not just a linear open... I notice not only a BIG difference in the lower RPM (2-4K RPM) but also the 4-6K RPM range with the Ghul flash (where there used to be a kind of lull).  Don't notice much change after that... but I also RARELY go over 6K RPM on this bike (there is just so rarely a need!)

In summary, I would say the changes are quite impressive between 2K and 6K.... which is where I spend 99% of my time.  I suspect whoever "told" you that has not driven a non-flashed and then flashed C14.

[B.D.F.]

The secondary butterflies do not fully open until 7,000 RPM and then only at full throttle. At anything less than full throttle, they may not open fully even after the engine hits redline.

Brian

I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm.  I guess the flies go open after that anyway.  So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not.   

[B.D.F.]

Yeah, they don't open them fully all the time because they cannot (due to physical limitations) but 'sell it' as it is better if they are not opened all the way too soon. Funny and a little sad all at the same time. Oh well, a few delivered fibs, some conjured up nonsense, some urban legend, simmer over medium heat for 30 minutes and you have an entire fable!   

This is the best place I have found to store 'flies:



Brian

The flies actually can't be opened "almost immediately", as the secondary butterfly actuator will hit the throttle linkage. You could probably open them up around 1800+ RPM or so, but they're fully open by 3000 RPM or earlier in his flashes anyway. There wouldn't be much benefit in opening them any earlier than they already are. I suspect some of it is snake oil, and what owners don't know won't hurt them;).

The main reason tuners are not opening the flies 100% immediately is because they can't without it affecting the throttle mechanism. This has nothing to do with the butterfly plates themselves by the way....just the secondary butterfly actuator. So, you have to think of it from a mechanical point of view, and not flow, to know why the ECU tuners are not opening the flies earlier than they are.

[Evert]

All I can say is the change was HUGE to me.  And far more bang for the buck compared to most any other performance mod I can think of.

So... things that make you say "hmmm".

Yes, and you seem to be in the majority. All I can say
 from my faithful trolling of both forums is I am not the only one whose expectations fell a little short.

So, I love my Connie but in this case I'm glad I only spent $20 on a good quality 12" screwdriver.

Evert

[Evert]

I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm.  I guess the flies go open after that anyway.  So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not.   

I agree with you 100%!!

[Son of Pappy]

I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm.  I guess the flies go open after that anyway.  So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not.   

Getting there is half the battle.  Some of us used our bikes for more than touring or commuting, we get to the track, ride her hard, or take her to some mountain twisties where mid range is everything.  Pulling the flies is hands down the best gain per money and effort   From what I gather it seems those with the throttle response issues are running idle at 1150-1200, bump it up to 1250-1300, start the breathing sooner and the issue disappears.  Each rider has their own rate of roll on so some may feel more and others less.  It makes a difference.

[Rembrant]

From my understanding the factory flies are also not just a linear open...

Well, their opening is linear, but their flow characteristics are not. If you look at the performance curve for a butterfly valve, you will not see a straight line.

In summary, I would say the changes are quite impressive between 2K and 6K.... which is where I spend 99% of my time.  I suspect whoever "told" you that has not driven a non-flashed and then flashed C14.

Actually, there are some C14 owners that have installed re-flashed ECU's that reported feeling no performance difference at all.

[Rembrant]

Yeah, they don't open them fully all the time because they cannot (due to physical limitations) but 'sell it' as it is better if they are not opened all the way too soon. Funny and a little sad all at the same time.

It IS funny and sad isn't it? I thought I'd say something, because I keep seeing people posting that the flies can be programmed to open even earlier if you want them to be...like ordering a steak to be well done instead of medium...lol. The flies in the flashed ECU's are being snapped open around 3000 RPM...perhaps a little earlier in some cases. Opening them any earlier than this would be pretty risky imho, and I doubt any of these ECU tuners even do it. They may tell you that they're going to do it, but likely do nothing at all. There is a little bit of snake oil being sold here, along with some damn fine (and mostly free) internet marketing.

I still think the flashed ECU's are a good option for many C14 owners looking for a little oomph with a no fuss installation. I also think it's great that there are C14 owners reading and researching these forums to come up with their own decisions. This is the way it's supposed to work;).





 

 

[maxtog]

Well, their opening is linear, but their flow characteristics are not. If you look at the performance curve for a butterfly valve, you will not see a straight line.

OK, that explains it.

Actually, there are some C14 owners that have installed re-flashed ECU's that reported feeling no performance difference at all.

I really don't see how that is possible.  I can only speak to a Guhl reflash, and only on a 2nd Gen.  But the difference is black and white; it is not a shade of grey.

[Rembrant]

I really don't see how that is possible. I can only speak to a Guhl reflash, and only on a 2nd Gen.  But the difference is black and white; it is not a shade of grey.

Well, if it was just a single isolated case, you could say that there was something wrong with that bike, but it has happened several times now, with different owners. It really has a lot to do with the owners and how they ride the bike. Different strokes for different folks as they say;).

[JS_racer]

OK, that explains it.

I really don't see how that is possible.  I can only speak to a Guhl reflash, and only on a 2nd Gen.  But the difference is black and white; it is not a shade of grey.

was a huge difference for me under 6k, huge!! 2500-just pulls great now. now the roads are still not great, but after 60k miles the old way, now this, it is a huge change.
i had the reflash on my 09 with the cs one slipon added and flashed for.
i ride spirited, and track days, but don't hang the rpm over 6-8k 95% of my riding miles. so for me, this is great and a huge change 95% of my future miles. 

[gPink]

There was another company doing a reflash that folks had considerable trouble with. Dynotronics or something like that. I don't know if the complaints were also with Guhl's work.

[Rembrant]

There was another company doing a reflash that folks had considerable trouble with. Dynotronics or something like that. I don't know if the complaints were also with Guhl's work.

I didn't really follow that whole Dynotronics thing too much....are they still doing C14 ECU's? The stuff I have read is all with the Guhl ECU reflash. I really should stay out of these discussions, because everybody has their own opinions, and if you try to suggest otherwise, all you get is "Well, that is impossible"...lol.

This isn't new however....it's as old as the internet...or time itself...lol.

[gPink]

I didn't really follow that whole Dynotronics thing too much....are they still doing C14 ECU's? The stuff I have read is all with the Guhl ECU reflash. I really should stay out of these discussions, because everybody has their own opinions, and if you try to suggest otherwise, all you get is "Well, that is impossible"...lol.

This isn't new however....it's as old as the internet...or time itself...lol.

Don't know if they're still in business. As far as the discussions go, everything is opinion unless there is science to back it up. If we can't kick people around for their opinion what good is the internet?