Help fuel coming out of key hole

[Jet86]

86 cali tank three nipples at back of tank,

ok so after i pulled all the emissions stuff i ran a short hose from nipple 1 left to nipple 3 right and ran another hose from nipple 2 center to ground, but now when i fill up the tank fuel comes out of gas cap keyhole and is ruining my tank and is a major fire hazard, fuel also drains to the ground from the center drain hose as i expected but i did not expect it to flow from the gas cap key hole and all over my tank. what can i do other than not fill up at the pump.

i removed the emissions stuff cause the bike would not run after i filled the tank, now it will run on a full tank but the fuel coming out of the keyhole is another issue.




 

[T Cro ®]

How full to the top are you filling the tank? From the center stand position I fill to no higher than 1" from the top...

[Daytona_Mike]

The 1 left over vacuum hose from the carb  has to be blocked off and so does the one that goes to the air breather.
 I see there are 4 hoses on a  cali  tank .
Sounds like your tank over flow(or vent) is blocked off and the expanding fuel (from heat) has no place to go so it comes out the keyhole.
How would emission stuff not make your bike run on a full tank?  Something else is going on here. .
 I bet your tank vent is blocked. The one at the gas cap.

I did a search and there is all kinds of information. Mostly issues with the rubber grommet in the filler neck needs to be  replaced or removed.
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,42480.msg264187.html#msg264187

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,32749.msg162336.html#msg162336

I just read this from MOB- He knows our bikes very well: ' ... then simply connect the red dot and blue dot nipples with a short hose, or cap them with rubber nipples.
do route the drain and overflow down, and back along the swingarm alongside the radiator reservoir overflow.
If this was a Cali bike, and had the canister removed, there are other hoses (vac, airbox, and reed) that should be looked at to insure they were plugged correctly'

[Jim __]

Yes, your primary tank vent is blocked.  When you connect the far left and far right nipple together, you have sealed the tank unless the rubber grommet, in the filler cap ring, is removed (this grommet is not installed on 49 state bikes).  I believe MOB had said in another thread that the tank fill cap will also vent through the key hole.  As T Cro asked, how full is your tank?  The book says the max height for fuel is at or below the metal ring in the tank.  See pic below.  #3 shows the max fuel level in the tank.  If you are also getting fuel through the overflow hose (center nipple), that means you've got enough pressure in the tank to blow it by the filler cap gasket the fuel coming out of you key hole is pouring down into the overflow trough underneath the cap.   If you remove the rubber grommet you can leave all your other hoses as they are and your tank will be vented properly.  If you do overfill, everything should be drained to the ground through the center nipple on the back of the tank.

[turbojoe78]

If you have gas coming out the key hole then to me your tank vent is working.  I believe the tank vents through the key hole and that is why we sometimes hear the bike singing to us after a ride.

My guess is that you are filling the tank to much and when the gas expands due to the heat from the engine it's got two places it can go ... out the key hole or out the over fill / water drain under the gas cap.

[Jet86]

This was my first fill up since removing ALL the emissions stuff, yes i did fill it up more than i normally do, bike on side stand, just to see where the excess fuel would go, i wanted to see it all go threw the new center hose that i put on, i have it going along the swing arm and indeed fuel did drain behind the rear tire like i wanted but i did not want it coming out the gas cap too lol,

"How would emission stuff not make your bike run on a full tank?"

i guess the canister was full or something was blocked because on a full tank the bike simply would not run, when i did manage to start it with the gas cap open there was a fuel volcano gusher from the round rubber house inside the tank.

so how do i remove this  rubber grommet? 

[Jim __]

Sounds like your return pump may have been defective (the one by your right foot peg).  Or your far left hose and far right hose on the back of you tank were switched.

[Daytona_Mike]

  Jim __   Pump?  I know there is a separator and a charcoal canister (which  the O.P. removed) but I dont think there is  such a thing as a pump.   (Your not the first person I see that calls that charcoal canister a pump)
Jet86
That rubber round hole you  are speaking of is the overflow-No way should fuel come up and out of there.  that  goes down  to an open ended  hose  to  be able to drain. Are you sure that this hose is not pinched or the other end plugged up or connected to something.

The grommet we are speaking of is inside the gas cap. It is part of the tank vent system and the grommet does get old and can plug the vent. It allows air into the tank as the gas level lowers other wise a vacuum builds up in the tank and the bike will run out of fuel.  You have to disassemble the gas cap to remove this grommet. Just 2 phillips head screws.

I do not understand how overfilling on the side stand would cause gas to come up and out the keyhole. Once you pick the bike up  the fuel level at the opening would lower--- or did you not go for a ride but instead left it on its side stand to see what it would do?
Jim made a good point here about the carb vent lines: http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,51601.msg366798/boardseen.html#new
I am sending you a picture of the canister. Look at the 3rd bottom hose. I have my  doubts about that line being a carb vent hose. It looks too small. I would assume it is a vacuum line because that is how charcoal canisters work- they need a vacuum line. If it is a carb vent line and you block it -well thats not good but if it is a vacuum line then it needs to be plugged.
http://www.ronayers.com/Fuel-Evaporative-System12CA-C376760.aspx
Another mystery was when the bike would not run when you filled it up. Define  'would not run' please.  Maybe the fuel pressure (due to a full tank) was over coming the float needles and you were dumping raw fuel into the cylinders. It would run like crap.
My bet is you do not have over flow tubes other wise you would know because fuel would have ran out the over flow tubes.
If you dont have over flow tubes on your carbs you better think about getting them. Removing that canister and separator wont fix that problem. When was the last time you had those carbs serviced?

[Jim __]

Mike, you're right, I was talking about the liquid/vapor separator.  Somewhere I had seen it referred to as a pump since it will pump any liquid back to the tank via the left tank nipple.  The operational test for the separator is to put a small amount of fuel in the tank vent line and verify the fuel is "pumped" out of the return line when the bike is started.

[Jim __]

Mike, the carb vent hoses on the Cal models are T'ed and go directly to the charcoal canister.  I wound up having to remove this line, cap the port on the canister and strap the vents to the frame rails when I installed overflow tubes.  The sensitivity of these carbs with respect to venting is amazing. 
 

[Jet86]

For now to make it less confusing for me lets not talk about the canister and separator cause that stuff is gone for now and hopefully for good.

my problem now is fuel coming out the key hole, my hose setup is left nipple connected to right nipple with a short hose and center nipple hose running down the swing arm behind the rear tire.

should i change hose configuration? run all three hoses to ground?

it leaked fuel out the key hole for a good 30 miles, the first 20 miles i had to keep a rag on my dash and wipe as needed to keep it from running down the tank and possibly hitting the hot engine.

i thought about just draining some gas off into my gas can but i wanted to see just how long it was gonna keep coming out the key hole. and even when it stopped leaking it now has alot of vapor, so much that it still keeps the key hole moist and smelly.

[T Cro ®]

should i change hose configuration? run all three hoses to ground?

I don't like to make comment on modding CA bikes as I've got 0 experience with them. BUT at this point I don't see why not...

Better to put the vent behind you than having gas droplets aimed at your willie....

[Jet86]

Yeah i always run any hose behind the rear tire that will have fluid coming out.
i learned that lesson the hard way when i was a teen.
right now the center hose is routed behind the rear tire, i will buy 2 more hoses and run them all behind the tire then fill up again and see what happens and will report back.

[nevadazx12]

Yeah, nothing like gas in your crotch to get your attention quick.  I have an 86 Cal smog model which I removed all the emissions equipment.  I will check tomorrow when I get to my shop, but I believe I capped 2 of the vents and routed the last one to behind the air cleaner to below the bike.  I will let you know which ones were capped and which one vented. Any vents from the old emissions canisters and stuff was removed, any unused port on carb was blocked, any holes where tubes came into airbox were capped.  I run equalizer hoses between manifolds, pairing 1-4 and 2-3.  I have never had any issues, even made block off plates for the top of the valve covers, increased my mileage a bit.

gg

[Jet86]

Thanks man, i knew there was still some 86's out there, i will hold off on buying extra hoses til you get back to me.

i capped all the ports on my carbs except the one going to the petcock, i blocked the big hole on the airbox long ago when i bought snarfs block-off plats.

oh yeah and that fuel in the crotch could turn into flames if hits the engine in the right spot,
years ago i bought a nice LTD KZ 550 $300 cash and i watched it burn to the ground 2 days later when my fuel line disconnected after hitting a big bump.

[SteveJ.]

i capped all the ports on my carbs except the one going to the petcock, i blocked the big hole on the airbox long ago when i bought snarfs block-off plats.

Hopefully not the carbbie vents.

[Jim __]

Jet, exactly how much gas did you put in the tank.  Did you go above the filler neck?  7.5 gallon is a lot of fuel and will expand considerably.  The hose configuration you described is correct.  May I suggest before you redo your hoses, try filling your tank so that the fuel is below the filler neck as shown in the previous post.  Please, whatever you do, do not run the left nipple open to anywhere.  It is a straight tube inside the tank for fuel return from the now-removed liquid/vapor separator.  BTW, were did you run your carb vents?

[Jet86]

i did fill it a little over the fill neck cause i wanted to see what would happen and where the excess fuel would go, i wanted to see the fuel just drain out the hose behind the tire and it did but also came out the keyhole, however fuel was still coming out the key hole even when the fuel level went well below the filler neck.

where are these carb vents? can you post some pics of where they are, the ports i capped was on the front of the carbs 1 3 & 4, i just put some small rubber caps on them i got from autozone.

[nevadazx12]

Just checked the tank vents.  Looks like I plugged number 1 and number 3, used the middle one as the vent.  Actually it is more to the right side as you sit on bike.
If I remember correctly I used the existing hoses, just added caps.

I see there was a question on which carb vents were plugged, I linked all the vents on the carbs that are on the air cleaner side and ran to a hose going under the engine, I am assuming that is the carb vents.  On the vents that noramlly one wiould put vacuum gauges on, they were linked 1-4 and 2-3 as I had done that practise on my Z-1s, don't know if it makes it smoother or not.

Just to eliminate any confusment, I have converted my petcock to a complete manual unit, so I am not tapping any vacuum from the carbs. 

Good luck,

gg

[T Cro ®]

Guys there is a big difference in the vacuum ports which are found on the engine side of the carbs ; in told there are 4 of them and what are refereed to as carb air breathers which there are 2 of. These are located between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 and are to the best of my memory a black plastic elbow shaped. These must be kept open and are generally run upward and toward the rear of the bike and are kept inboard of the main frame itself to shield them from the wind.