Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: dolomoto on April 05, 2016, 04:45:10 PM
-
2010 C14, 31,000 miles, completely stock ( except for Rostra CC)and under GTPP until 2019. Bike was and is running fine but when I started it up the other day (after backing out of garage), these errors popped. I rode it a few hundred miles and dropped it at the local Kaw dealer.
They called back and said the Rostra CC was causing ECU errors and they did not like the way it was wired. Said the Rostra may have ruined the ECU and these codes were "bad wiring" codes.
PO did the Rostra and it has worked great for the last 5000 miles I have owned it.
What do you think?
-
I would disconnect the Rostra, clear the ecu codes and see what happens. Not sure I like the dealers response. How are your battery connections? A lot of ghosts caused by a weak battery/corroded connections.
-
I would disconnect the Rostra, clear the ecu codes and see what happens. Not sure I like the dealers response. How are your battery connections? A lot of ghosts caused by a weak battery/corroded connections.
I had the battery out recently, all connections looked good and I was sure to tighten the connections sufficiently.
The dealer wants to "fix" the Rostra wiring and will call back with quote.
Does the Rostra connect to the ECU?
-
Don't know about the rostra. Someone here should be able to answer that. You might reach out to Brian (BDF) for a definitive answer. This bike is finicky about connections. Not just tight but abrasively cleaned especially the battery to frame ground. How many Rostras has the dealer installed on connies?
-
I had the battery out recently, all connections looked good and I was sure to tighten the connections sufficiently.
Including the frame connections?
The dealer wants to "fix" the Rostra wiring and will call back with quote.
Hmm..... that should be interesting. Will they tell you exactly how they are "fixing" it in the quote?
Does the Rostra connect to the ECU?
Yes, I am sure it is connected to things that also go to the computer. It seems unlikely a Rostra install would "damage" the ECU, but it is not beyond possibility.
-
Yes on the frame connection. At this point I probably don't owe anything but if I ask them to disconnect the Rostra and see if that clears the ECU codes and it does, I will owe them $170 diagnostic fee plus an hour or three of shop labor. (So they tell me).
I want to see the exact explanation of these codes.
-
Are the codes listed in the fsm?
-
The only place a Rosta can cause K-ACT and KTRC errors is where the wheel encoder signal connects to the Rostra. Maybe there is an issue there.
So you say it started after you backed out of the garage but the bike was not running at that point.
Next thing you did was start the bike up and that is when you got these errors? Without riding yet? Or did you start moving after starting the bike up and then you got these errors?
One more question. Does the Rostra work ok?
-
I had the battery out recently, all connections looked good and I was sure to tighten the connections sufficiently.
The dealer wants to "fix" the Rostra wiring and will call back with quote.
Does the Rostra connect to the ECU?
Only in the sense that it taps into the speed sensor line. I don't see any way for the Rostra to ruin the ECU.
-
This is typical dealer "bravo sierra". They point the finger at anything other than the real problem. Is it possible your Rostra is causing this problem? Yes. It is LIKELY? No! Unless you made a gross error in installation this seems ridiculous. Could the Rostra trash your ECU? Again, this is possible the extraordinarily unlikely. If so, why would the bike run at all?
This dealer sounds like a crook to me. I'd take the bike elsewhere before they mess up your bike but good.
-
Only in the sense that it taps into the speed sensor line. I don't see any way for the Rostra to ruin the ECU.
Agreed, however this assumes that the P.O. installed it correctly. Still, it's hard to determine how it could have been hooked up wrong and still work. (http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/think/m1718.gif)
1A is a communication problem between the Meter and the ABS Hydraulic unit.
1B is a communication error of the ABS Hydraulic unit (it doesn't say exactly to where but I'm assuming with the ECU)
I'm fairly certain that the communication between the three (ECU, ABS Hydraulic unit, Meter) is all CAN bus stuff (http://www.dgtech.com/images/primer.pdf)which is way over my head.
I couldn't find any "28" code.
I agree with jwh20, "bravo sierra". I think a mouse chewing on the wiring might have more validity than the Rostra as the culprit.
I know if you put the front wheel back on with the ABS sensor perf plate on the wrong side that you'll get a code, but I think it's only one code not three. You would have told us if you just had the front wheel off, right?
I want to see the exact explanation of these codes.
1A KTRC Meter unit and K-ACT ABS hydraulic unit communication error (K-ACT ABS Equipped Models)
1B KTRC/K-ACT ABS K-ACT ABS hydraulic unit communication error (K-ACT ABS Equipped Models)
Couldn't find a 28..here is 27:
27 Front and/or Rear Wheel Rotation Sensor Signal (K-ACT ABS Equipped Models) Front and/or rear wheel rotation sensor must sends 48 signals (front) and 45
signals (rear) to the ECU at the 1 rotation of the wheels. If the front and/or rear wheel rotation sensor system fails (the signal is missing, wiring open), the ECU stops the KTRC control.
For 1A
17-84 SELF-DIAGNOSIS SYSTEM
Meter Unit and K-ACT ABS Hydraulic Unit Communication Error (Service Code
1A, K-ACT ABS Equipped Models)
Meter Unit and K-ACT ABS Hydraulic Unit
Communication Line Inspection
○When the data (for KTRC control) is not sent from the
meter unit and K-ACT ABS hydraulic unit to the ECU, the
service code 1A is displayed.
○The data is sent through the CAN communication line.
○The service code 1A is detected with the ECU.
○When the service code 1A was detected, the warning indicator
light (LED) and KTRC indicator light (LED)
go on, and KTRC warning message is displayed on the
LCD.
•Inspect the CAN communication line (see CAN Communication
Line Resistance Inspection in the Fuel System
(DFI) chapter).
If the CAN communication line is normal, check the following
parts.
Meter Unit (see Meter Unit Inspection in the Electrical
System chapter)
K-ACT ABS Hydraulic Unit (see K-ACT ABS Hydraulic
Unit Inspection in the Brakes chapter)
If the above parts are normal, check the ECU for its
ground and power supply (see ECU Power Supply Inspection
in the Fuel System (DFI) chapter).
If the ground and power supply are good, replace the ECU
(see ECU Removal/Installation in the Fuel System (DFI)
For 1B
K-ACT ABS Hydraulic Unit Communication Error (Service Code 1B, K-ACT ABS
Equipped Models)
K-ACT ABS Hydraulic Unit Communication Line
Inspection
○When the data (for status of K-ACT ABS hydraulic unit) is
not sent from the K-ACT ABS hydraulic unit to the meter
unit and ECU, the service code 1B is displayed.
○The data is sent through the CAN communication line
○The service code 1B is detected with the meter unit.
○When the service code 1B was detected, the warning indicator
light (LED) , KTRC indicator light (LED) and
K-ACT ABS indicator light (LED) go on, and KTRC
warning message and K-ACT ABS warning message are
alternately displayed on the LCD.
•Inspect the CAN communication line (see CAN Communication
Line Resistance Inspection in the Fuel System
(DFI) chapter).
If the CAN communication line is normal, check the K
-ACT ABS hydraulic unit (see K-ACT ABS Hydraulic Unit
Inspection in the Brakes chapter).
If the K-ACT ABS hydraulic unit is normal, check the meter
unit(see Meter Unit Inspection in the Electrical System
chapter).
If the meter unit is normal, but the problem still exists, replace
the meter unit (see Meter Unit Removal/Installation
in the Electrical System chapter).
-
Yes, the Rostra worked after the errors which came on the moment I turned the switch on and before starting.
-
Based on the error codes, it preliminarily looks like one or more loose connectors or something.
-
Dealer verdict: ABS pump failure, $1300. Will be covered by the GTPP (that I just extended!).
-
That's out of left field. What was the diagnostic procedure that came to that conclusion? Is this the same dealer that said the Rostra fried the ecu?
-
Dealer verdict: ABS pump failure, $1300. Will be covered by the GTPP (that I just extended!).
WOW. Well, it is rare, but we have seen a few of those happen. Aren't you glad you renewed your GTPP?!!
-
Dunno what led them to that...is same team that started to blame the Rostra.
And yes, that GTPP was money well spent.
-
Interesting. Please keep us informed.
-
Even though I joined jwh20 in calling bravo sierra, I'm now going to give the service folks a break. You have to imagine that they get to see a lot of hack job installs and botched up wiring, especially on the smaller bikes (younger owners with less money and less experience who know a lot more about phone apps than electrons) which is probably the most of what they service. The service folks most likely wouldn't suspect the ABS unit failing as their first thought, and seeing a cruise control installed when half of their customers have trouble adding simple extra lights and power ports, they probably jumped to the initial diagnosis a bit early. Yes, they perhaps should have kept their initial thoughts to themselves until they did a complete diagnosis but it seems they may have recovered well, so I'll give 'em some respect for now pending the final outcome. The GTPP is a great deal and these bikes are not all as bulletproof as some say and others wish.
Good Luck with this Dolomoto! Keep us informed.
-
:goodpost:
-
I work with CAN on large mining trucks. It's how intelligent devices send commands, sensor signals and receive commands they then do something with (open/close a valve etc). Here is a super technical drawing I spent days slaving over.
You're getting comm errors from one device. That can mean that device is dead or the wire it uses to communicate onto the datalink bus with is broken or it simply has no power. The ECU that's throwing these codes is expecting messages from that thing every x milliseconds and for whatever reason, it's not getting them.
They COULD be right.
-
ETRO, P+2H. Parts expected in sometime in May.
-
ETRO, P+2H. Parts expected in sometime in May.
translation?
-
translation?
Good, I am not alone...
-
Men's and Women's Accessories, Lockheed P-2H Neptune (silly + sign changed to -)
-
Estimated Time to Return to Operations (ETRO), Parts +2 Hours (P+2H)
-
TFTT GLWTR
-
ETRO, P+2H.
TFTT GLWTR
OGL,LWTFYHSH dolo' ::)
-
DHAC
-
DHAC
I'm sorry, was that clue or cow?
-
clue..
-
less
-
filling
....oops..sorry..thought this was word association thread.
-
Update: the $1300 ABS pump thing arrived and was installed....and that was not the problem. Now, Big K says it's the wiring harnesses so those are on order. At this point it looks like they are throwing parts at it. All good since I have the extended warranty but I am down my main mile eater right in the middle of riding season.
-
Update: the $1300 ABS pump thing arrived and was installed....and that was not the problem. Now, Big K says it's the wiring harnesses so those are on order.
Yeah warranty coverage is nice, but it's only as good as your dealer. Be very watchful, once they get into the wiring they may change their tune and start pointing at the Rostra again, .....you know..... somehow your wiring messed up their wiring etc etc. and then there goes the warranty coverage and your $$$.
-
New wiring harnesses fixed the errors but now the speedo doesn't work which the dealer is blaming on the Rostra CC.
The dealer offered to uninstall the CC for 2h of shop labor @ $89/hr. After that if the speedo doesn't work all other work will be covered.
What do you guys think?
The bike has been in the shop for two months.
-
New wiring harnesses fixed the errors but now the speedo doesn't work which the dealer is blaming on the Rostra CC.
The dealer offered to uninstall the CC for 2h of shop labor @ $89/hr. After that if the speedo doesn't work all other work will be covered.
What do you guys think?
The bike has been in the shop for two months.
The problem with that is if they remove the Rostra and the speedo still doesn't work then they can fix the real problem and still charge you for removing the Rostra. Hmmm...what to do. They sort of have you by the short hairs here. Do you think they could leave it all in place and just disconnect it "electrically" from the bike so that if it doesn't correct the speedo problem then you or they could reconnect it? The only thing that I can see between the speedo and the Rostra is the connection to the speed sensor and I think the bike would throw a code if that wasn't working. Do you know if the speedo does it's swing the needle thing when it's first turned on? I'm not sure where your Rostra is tied into the speed sensor, but the sensor wire goes both to the ECU and the instrument module, if the speedo isn't working but the ECU is not giving a code then I would suspect the connection between the sensor and the speedo rather than the Rostra.
Maybe the dealer can "fix" the Rostra as he originally offered (first post this thread) to do at your cost and fix the speedo under warranty when that doesn't fix the problem? You might want to offer Brian's instructions and maybe even Fred's wiring diagram if you decide to go that way. We all know those work. Not knowing your dealer or the wiring prowess of the PO makes this difficult to help with.
It is potential problems like this that gave me pause when I installed my Rostra. I was lucky I guess, both with my install and my dealer. Best wishes, please keep us informed as you have been doing.
-
Bingo! Dealer called back and said the Rostra fried the speed sensor.
They offered the previous deal to uninstall the Rostra +$130 for the speed sensor.
The other parts will be covered under warranty.
-
Well the Rostra hasn't fried any of our speed sensors. See if instead of removing it, if they will fix the Rostra wiring like they first offered to do. It couldn't cost much more than what they want to charge to remove it.
-
Bingo! Dealer called back and said the Rostra fried the speed sensor.
They offered the previous deal to uninstall the Rostra +$130 for the speed sensor.
The other parts will be covered under warranty.
I'm calling b/s on that one... the sensor is a pulse sensor... how does it fry? you aren't sending any volts to the sensor...
tell them to cut the wire you attached to the gray sensor wire, install the sensor...and when you get the bike back, re attache /splice the wires....
-
I'm calling b/s on that one... the sensor is a pulse sensor... how does it fry? you aren't sending any volts to the sensor...
tell them to cut the wire you attached to the gray sensor wire, install the sensor...and when you get the bike back, re attache /splice the wires....
+1
That gets my vote. They don't have to "uninstall" anything, just cut the connection from the Rostra to the speed sensor and call it a day.
Of course, if you then pay for the new speed sensor and it is working, and you reconnect the Rostra, and the speedometer stops working again.... don't expect a warranty replacement :)
-
The dealer refused their previous offer to "fix" the Rostra wiring. I took a look at the Rostra wiring...it's not bad but there seems to be a fair amount of electrical tape which may just be for anti-chafing. And there is some non standard wiring colors...the dealer has the Rostra C14 wiring instructions but at this point they want it out of their shop.
I agree that the speed sensor was unlikely to be damaged by the Rostra and it's likely that some other issue caused the errors...my speedo worked when I dropped it off.
At this point, with the good faith effort by the dealer and I want my bike bike...i am going to eat the $$ for the Rostra uninstall and price of the speed sensor.
Nobody knows what the original problem was other than the errors went away with the wiring harness install but then the speedo was inop.
I have been without my bike for most of the good (cool) riding season. The bill will be around $350 but I get my bike back and the other parts are warranteed. (And I will have a Rostra for sale!). The bill is nearly $3000 (parts and labor)...my portion is that $350.
Its understandable that a dealer should have to prove that a non OEM accessory caused an issue....how far would any of us take that? 2 months? 3?
It is incredibly frustrating and this is why I am waiting until the warranty expires before reflashing the ECU.
Thoughts ?
-
I'm hearing you loud and clear, and I'm sure they do want it out of their shop, because they are just tossing stuff at it.... like the abs unit...
now, the speedo worked when you brought it in..... they supposedly tossed parts on the bike, which had the Rostra installed...
what exact harness did they supposidly replace??? and when they installed these harnesses, what re wire work did they do to re install the signal to the Rostra???? then, their re wire work caused the failure of the speedo sensor???
I just went over the circuits, and testing procedures for gage functions, and also the speedo sensor, and feeling like they jacked up a connection or two...
either at the gage cluster plug pins 11 & 12, or down near the connection to the speedo sensor.... that sensor is a prox switch, which senses induction as metal passes a surface, no physical moving parts, and you coud connect 12v to any pair of wires on that sensor without damaging it...
I think during their testing, they made errors in the procedure, and caused the damage to the sensor.
as I said, the gray wire from the rostra only senses a pulse, and applies no current to the switch.
if they remove your rostra, and cobble up the harness installed, and don't do it in a manner to prevent shorts now after they remove all your wires... you're pretty much screwed, and chasing this down after will be a nightmare, especially when the scoot you out the door.
I wish you the best of luck,
-
MoB, thanks for the insight...i took those points up with the service dept to no avail.
I got the bike back and my wallet is $340 lighter. Total billed to Kawasaki was around $3500. Parts replaced:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Concours-14-pics/i-G6Tt5p2/0/M/IMG_20160622_064652490-M.jpg)
They don't know what caused the original error...i have a sneaking suspicion that it was the speed sensor all along.