Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)

[Rhino]

This thread is absolutely fascinating.  Could be the "best kept secret ever"?

+1 Seems like this should be in the user manual and definitely in the service manual.

[Stephen.G.Fiddes]

2012 bike here...
- not exactly happy with the throttle response before. quite snatchy when rolling from a closed throttle at any speed. i thought it was because i never synched the throttle bodies (50,000+km, valve clearance done).
- (before) cold, performs very well. hot, not so well.
(after) good throttle response, engine hot or cold.
- never noticed any snatchy feel when rolling the throttle on (from closed) at any speed.
- never did the procedure a second time.

YAAAAYYYYY!!!!!!

[B.D.F.]

Just saw this thread and absolutely no doubt about it, I should turn away and just keep going..... but.....

I am not following this: If you folks are saying the bike powers on in the 'calibration' mode, wouldn't opening the throttle, say, 1/3 of the way and horribly miss- calibrate the TPS? Also, it would be considered a poor idea I think for anything to simply enter any kind of calibration mode without the operator knowing it and even being required to do something to enter that mode. Lastly, why would re-calibration be needed so often?

With all due respect to everyone, this just does not make any sense to me. Anything electronic that I have ever seen that could be calibrated in any way requires direct, distinct user input to 1) get into that mode and 2) to actually change anything that will be used for future reference, and finally 3) it is always acknowledged that something was done so the user ('recalibrator' I guess in this case) is made aware that the task was completed.

And just for reference, a very common device that does require throttle calibration, a Power Commander, absolutely requires both initiation and interaction upon the part of the user to accomplish this.

Just as food for thought, if the bike did power up in 'calibration' mode, there would be C-14's all over the place horribly miss- calibrated because they were powered up, the throttle tinkered with (but not carefully fully opened and closed) absolutely by mistake.

Sorry -not trying to rain on anyone's parade, and if this procedure 'works' for you then great. I just do not see this as a viable method or anything any mfg. would code into a device to allow change without specific intention on the part of the user. Further, how would anyone know he / she actually did accomplish anything without some kind of feedback (nothing complex, just for example the generic red LED on the dash blinking twice perhaps)?

If this were a legitimate procedure, why would it not be in the manual? If it is in the service manual, can anyone point towards it? And if it were that easy to enter calibration mode and actually calibrate the throttle, it would certainly be in the manual to go through that procedure in the event the throttle had previously been miss- calibrated.

Brian

[tomp]

Hey Brian, here's a link to what has been mentioned on this thread, concerning TPS reset procedure, for BMW motorcycles.  Google shows links to similar procedures for other makes, too.   

In BMW's case, it has to be done after replacing or disconnecting the battery.  Just saying, and the video posted earlier shows that the reset does work.  As to why it isn't in the owner's or service manuals, I don't know, but I tried it over the weekend per the video, and it did work as reported. 

Not starting a pi$$ing match, but have known about this reset procedure for years, from other makes I've owned.  tomp

http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=636

[B.D.F.]

No, no- No pi$$ing contest. Just stating my concern and thoughts about this procedure. And as always, more than willing to learn- I have been around here a long time and always look for knowledge, especially if it comes in the way of a correction because that means I thought I had knowledge but was wrong- far worse than simply not knowing.

Checked out the BMW thread and there are two big differences there- one is it only works after a battery disconnect / reconnect and the second is that it takes more than one turn of the throttle apparently. Both of those things go a long way to making the procedure make sense to me and both would prevent the accidental miss- calibration of the throttle position sensor through anything even approaching normal use.

One other thing I would point out: the EPA would never allow such a simple method to miss- calibrate a road use vehicle. In fact, the FJR's imported into this country have to have their fuel calibration ability literally removed to be EPA certified. To adjust the mixture on an FJR sold in the US, one must jumper the ECU to re- enable that ability. Look up the 'Barbarian mod' and 'FJR' and it will turn up immediately.

Again, we are just talking here so no need to be wary about disagreeing with me. In fact, I would appreciate being pointed toward any documentation on any model motorcycle that this procedure will work on, especially any Japanese motorcycle.

Brian

Hey Brian, here's a link to what has been mentioned on this thread, concerning TPS reset procedure, for BMW motorcycles.  Google shows links to similar procedures for other makes, too.   

In BMW's case, it has to be done after replacing or disconnecting the battery.  Just saying, and the video posted earlier shows that the reset does work.  As to why it isn't in the owner's or service manuals, I don't know, but I tried it over the weekend per the video, and it did work as reported. 

Not starting a pi$$ing match, but have known about this reset procedure for years, from other makes I've owned.  tomp

http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=636

[Rhino]

You make some good points Brian. Would love to hear a definitive response from mother kaki.

[VirginiaJim]

Spock - Fascinating!

[tomp]

Funny, hear the word once, it makes sense to the brain.  Hear it that many times and it becomes a confusing jumble of letters. "fast nating"  What the heck is a nating, and is it faster than a C14?

[Stephen.G.Fiddes]

Brian: I believe it is required to turn the throttle twice for it to take effect.  You also have to shut off and re-turn on the bike for it to take effect so its not like its easily undone or mis-calibrated. Im willing to try later as I've already un-calibrated and re-calibrated with no ill effects.  I do know that this has definately made a huge difference for me, and while it may not be in the service manual, it does work, as many have noted since this thread began. 

Its an electronic device. They do the dumbest things at times.

Again, not to start a pi$$ing match.

[B.D.F.]

Will youse guize chillax? :-)  We are just talking here, nobody is going to go nuts or even get cranky. No contest of any kind and nothing is personal. Besides, Jim will ride heard over us and stop us from making a mess even if we try, right Jim? 

Electronics, especially those that are coded (programmed) really do not do anything they were not programmed to do. If there is a calibration procedure in a C-14 for the throttle position, it is there because someone wrote it and then burned it into every single ECU ever made for these bikes. That is exactly my point- this absolutely cannot be some kind of 'back door' (Easy Boys!) that no one meant to exist but allows us to cleverly tinker with the air / fuel mixture. And if there is a calibration mechanism, I believe that 1) you could not get there without a very specific sequences of events more complicated than turning the ign. on and off, even turning the throttle twice, and 2) there would be some kind of feedback that you had accomplished such a recalibration.

And of course, the others reasons I already stated.

But again, I am happy to find out when I am wrong because it is an opportunity to learn something new and get rid of 'bad knowledge'. So by all means, let's find some documentation about this.... and I do not mean a thread on a different forum; something in the way of a manufacturer's documentation works great for me. And not limited to Kawasaki- any Japanese vehicle mfg. doing this would be absolutely fascinating to me. German is OK but not so great- they really do write some poor software- look up the revision list of, say, a BMW K1200GT and you will be amazed at how many releases there were (and it is probably ongoing).

Brian

Brian: I believe it is required to turn the throttle twice for it to take effect.  You also have to shut off and re-turn on the bike for it to take effect so its not like its easily undone or mis-calibrated. Im willing to try later as I've already un-calibrated and re-calibrated with no ill effects.  I do know that this has definately made a huge difference for me, and while it may not be in the service manual, it does work, as many have noted since this thread began. 

Its an electronic device. They do the dumbest things at times.

Again, not to start a pi$$ing match.

[Rembrant]

...let's find some documentation about this.... and I do not mean a thread on a different forum; something in the way of a manufacturer's documentation works great for me. And not limited to Kawasaki- any Japanese vehicle mfg. doing this would be absolutely fascinating to me.

Brian

If I have time tonight I will go through this procedure and check and see if it actually works.

I can connect the KDS and check my TPS readings, and then "calibrate" the TPS manually, and check the readings again. Further to that, I could actually "calibrate" it incorrectly, and then check the readings again and see what the ECU has to say for itself;).

It's not documentation, but it's as close a test as I can do to prove the theory or not.

I suppose it is possible for the TPS readings to vary slightly at both the 0% and 100% ends of the scale from bike to bike? When you install a PCV that is designed for your particular motorcycle, it comes pre-set to the OEM TPS open and closed voltages. They are however adjustable...but any that I've ever installed only had to be adjusted by a couple hundredths of a volt on either end of the scale. Even if you leave them un-adjusted, there is no difference...well, nothing that the common man can tell by listening to or riding the motorcycle. That I have tested, numerous times.

Rem

[B.D.F.]

Outstanding! I would absolutely accept that kind of data as proof; exactly as you say, you should be able to "calibrate" it to, say, 1/2 throttle as WOT and then back to actual WOT over and over again if this works. Even if you miss by 10%, it would be incredibly obvious as there would be a huge change in the interpreted value of the throttle position sensor.

Great idea- I look forward to hearing what you find. One of the best things to happen around 'here' was you getting KDS and looking in all the nooks and crannies and then reporting the info. Good stuff, and thanks for sharing.

I know on the Power Commanders they have to be calibrated on both ends of the throttle scale: 0% (idle, when fully warm) and 100% throttle. The ones I have done vary about 2%. But it is a very deliberate procedure that requires a computer be plugged into the PC and each step of calibration (change) requires user interaction and acknowledgement.

Brian

If I have time tonight I will go through this procedure and check and see if it actually works.

I can connect the KDS and check my TPS readings, and then "calibrate" the TPS manually, and check the readings again. Further to that, I could actually "calibrate" it incorrectly, and then check the readings again and see what the ECU has to say for itself;).

It's not documentation, but it's as close a test as I can do to prove the theory or not.

<snip>

Rem

[tomp]

FWIW, Here's the FAQ's on the JuiceBox TPS recalibration.  Similar to what has been discussed here, but with the engine running.  FAQ #4 is the referenced one.  0% to 100% to 0%...simple...


http://www.twobros.com/Perf_Products/Juice_Box_Pro/JuiceBox-FAQ.htm     

[B.D.F.]

Exactly- a simple, user- interactive process that could not possibly be executed by mistake or without the user's absolutely direct input needed. That is exactly my point.

By the way, the Power Commander is similar except the user has to hit the 'calibrate' button at both 0% and 100% throttle openings and the new numbers will be input into the columns so it is obvious when it has been done.

Brian

FWIW, Here's the FAQ's on the JuiceBox TPS recalibration.  Similar to what has been discussed here, but with the engine running.  FAQ #4 is the referenced one.  0% to 100% to 0%...simple...


http://www.twobros.com/Perf_Products/Juice_Box_Pro/JuiceBox-FAQ.htm   

[Rembrant]

Outstanding! I would absolutely accept that kind of data as proof; exactly as you say, you should be able to "calibrate" it to, say, 1/2 throttle as WOT and then back to actual WOT over and over again if this works. Even if you miss by 10%, it would be incredibly obvious as there would be a huge change in the interpreted value of the throttle position sensor.

Great idea- I look forward to hearing what you find. One of the best things to happen around 'here' was you getting KDS and looking in all the nooks and crannies and then reporting the info. Good stuff, and thanks for sharing.

Ok, so my lovely wife took over the BBQ so I could execute this important test...lol. She's so awesome...lol.

Ok, I did four checks with the KDS:

1. Checked my TPS readings when initially turning the bike on.
0% was .68v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v

2. Did full calibration as described on page one of this thread, and then checked TPS readings again.
0% was .69v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v

3. Did partial calibration...twisted the throttle 0-50% twice, and then checked TPS readings again.
0% was .68v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v

4. Did second partial calibration...twisted throttle 0-75% twice, and then checked TPS readings again.
0% was .68v and 100% (WOT) was 3.78v

Now, it should be noted that my 0% reading varies slightly between .66v and .69v depending on how hard I close the throttle. This is why aftermarket devices like the PCV have adjustable settings for 0% and 100%. Although the voltage readings of the individual TPS units will all be the same, the 'actual' closed and open throttle voltages will vary from bike to bike slightly due to throttle cable adjustments, idle settings, throttle body cleanliness? etc, etc.

I should also mention that my C14 is/was working perfectly fine...no complaints. It does display some throttle snatch, but I think this is pretty common with these FI set-ups. I think it has something to do with the transition from the IAP map to the TPS map, but that's just a guess based on where it happens on my particular bike.

I'm not saying that this TPS calibration doesn't work...but the numbers above show what my bike did before and after this procedure.

HTH,
Rem

[B.D.F.]

Works for me- thanks! And say thanks to your wife too :-)

Brian

Ok, so my lovely wife took over the BBQ so I could execute this important test...lol. She's so awesome...lol.

Ok, I did four checks with the KDS:

<snip>

I'm not saying that this TPS calibration doesn't work...but the numbers above show what my bike did before and after this procedure.

HTH,
Rem

[Son of Pappy]

Been out and about, come back and, well nice to see some form of science being brought in.  I won't can't dispute anyones findings or results.  I can wish we had a KDS on hand for those having success to see the numbers on the KDS.  Rem, do you have a PCV on board?  Curious as to an apples to apples result.

Brian, it may not be published for the very reason to pointed out, EPA and all that nanny state stuff.  As a curious sort, I would almost expect you to place a line on your throttle and a corresponding line on the throttle housing, warm the bike up, shut it off, try the procedure at say %50, turn the key off, start the bike and take a ride.  See if anything happened.  Nothing lost in trying.  If memory serves me right you have a PC3 installed?  So it may not be the same variable to validate what happens on other bikes, but then again??? 

Again, no doubt in my mind it has worked for at least one member and results like that are hard to attribute to the placebo effect a say, new farkle has on an owner.

[Rembrant]

Been out and about, come back and, well nice to see some form of science being brought in.  I won't can't dispute anyones findings or results.  I can wish we had a KDS on hand for those having success to see the numbers on the KDS.  Rem, do you have a PCV on board?  Curious as to an apples to apples result.

Brian, it may not be published for the very reason to pointed out, EPA and all that nanny state stuff.  As a curious sort, I would almost expect you to place a line on your throttle and a corresponding line on the throttle housing, warm the bike up, shut it off, try the procedure at say %50, turn the key off, start the bike and take a ride.  See if anything happened.  Nothing lost in trying.  If memory serves me right you have a PC3 installed?  So it may not be the same variable to validate what happens on other bikes, but then again??? 

Again, no doubt in my mind it has worked for at least one member and results like that are hard to attribute to the placebo effect a say, new farkle has on an owner.

I'm running a custom flashed FI ECU, so no, don't have a PCV installed anymore.

The PCV would show the same numbers I posted above, as it is reading the same TPS that the FI ECU is.

I have seen bikes with PC3's and PC5's running poorly because their TPS calibrations were way off. Once set properly, they always perform better. I'm talking adjustments like 10% or more. If they're off by only a percent or two, I don't really ever see any noticeable difference, other than maybe the idle changing by a hair or two.

If the procedure is working for some folks, then that's great...seriously. If an issue can be fixed that easily, it is definitely worth being happy about imho.

Rem

[Son of Pappy]

Rem I agree, just being the guy who wants variables consistent for the purpose of validating findings.  I like knowing why something worked, that it worked is great, and would be happy that it worked.  Like Brian, I would be un happy not knowing how it worked, and would wonder why after all these years we never knew this existed, hence the skeptical approach.

Leaves me wondering even deeper, seeing as how the Euro bikes have the narrow band O2 sensor, how does the Euro ECU differ from the rest?  Is it the same? 

I bet Guhl may have some kind of answer as they have seen the innards of the 1s and 0s...

[tomp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tdkwHXydy4#t=65

Went back and rewatched the video.  He messes up the calibration buy starting with the throttle partially open, and you will notice that the idle speed is still the same both times, but he said it was running richer, allowing for the instant RPM rise.  It is that the throttle movement doesn't create a smooth acceleration of the engine.  Recalibrating brings the throttle movement and the acceleration back in sync with one another. 

It SEEMS, that the 0 and 100% voltages would remain the same as Rem showed, but the movement in between was somehow  altered, causing the choppy acceleration when out of calibration.  The recalibration smoothed everything out again. 

Are there stepper motors or secondary sensors at work here that are actually being aletered and/or restored through the open close throttle movements? 

I DON'T KNOW, just wondering, that's all... tomp