I finally get it...abs

[Shad0hawK]

My apologies, SoP, It was not my intent to stir you up.  I have no problems with those who have made a personal decision to reject ABS technology.  My beef is with those who actively try to convince others to follow suit.  Those so-called proof videos that are always dragged out and posted when this subject comes up, only prove that under perfect conditions, with prior warning, a professional rider can out-stop an ABS equipped machine with an idiot at the controls.

so who in this thread  exactly is trying to convince anyone not to get an ABS bike? the video i posted was to show that it still takes proper braking to get the most out of an ABS equipped bike just like any other, i made sure to explain that very clearly...i thought 

 

I worry that some newbie will make his or her buying decision based on the assumption that THEY are the pro rider, and not the idiot.

a newbie with that mindset would probobly be plastered soon anyway, ABS or no.
Brand new Gixxer crashed

[Son of Pappy]

Iv'e seen other forums that really do push the ABS rider as a lessor rider.  This forum is filled with older, wiser folks.  Iv'e heard it in classes.  I ALWAYS stress rider skills must be developed in order for technology to be effective, one without the other is useless.
I wonder how many who advocate covering the brakes all the time also cover the clutch all the time?  My self, I cover the clutch quite a bit, must be my DS side

[Excavator]

I had a choice between a red non abs or a black w/abs, I really wanted the red bike but went with the black because of the abs. My decision on this was made a year earlier when I was still riding an M109R, someone obviously in a hurry decided to pull into traffic instead of waiting for me to pass, the street was wet and I ended up sliding a good 100 ft. or so, it was a near miss and no harm done (except for a broken pucker string) but it was still on my mind when I was shoping for a C14.

I do feel a little safer now riding on wet pavement.

[lt1]

These discussions seems to wind up going down 2 paths:  a) Whether ABS is theoretically able to help a bike stop quicker. b) Technology vs skills.

The first is fun to discuss, but outside of the racetrack or other controlled environment, the question is not particularly relevant.  The relevant question is whether ABS enables a relatively skilled rider to stop as quickly or more quickly in a variety of real-world settings.

The second is off-topic, as there is no need for a conflict.  ABS does not replace skills.  It can, however augment them.  Although there may be a few riders who think that ABS is a magic bullet that means they need no other skills, I personally believe that such a person is extraordinarily rare.  ABS gives a thoughtful rider, especially a thoughtful beginner, the opportunity to practice hard/emergency braking in a controlled manner in a number of enviroments and under much more varied conditions than would be safe for a non-ABS equipped unit.  IMHO, ABS actually encourages and promotes practice and skill development.   As far as I can tell, nobody who believes that ABS is a substitute for education, skill and practice is likely to seek education, practice and/or develop skills anyway.

Having said all that, there are circumstances where ABS can be a liability rather than an asset.  Fortunately, those are rare.  Fortunately, the times when ABS is a necessity are also rare, especially for an alert, skilled rider.  After I bought the C14 (w/ABS), I said that I would never buy another bike w/o ABS.  But I have, several times.  And I don't feel "unsafe" riding them, even though they were all older bikes that did not even have ABS as an option.   

I still expect that my next new bike will have ABS, but can understand why others might choose differently.

[rcannon409]

I don't understand. You pulled the brake lever hard enough to activate ABS  BEFORE you recognized a threat?

No, and a good point. I had pulled the front brake, so I did recognize the threat.  However, when it started to lock I heard a small chirp, then abs took over.  It was at that point I hear it start to cycle so I'm looking at the threat of locked brakes, or brake as the case is since I dont really use the rear brake.  I would have had to release the front brake or let up some. There is no way I could have cycled on/off as quickly or frequently.  The sound reminded me of hearing concrete workers using a hammer drill as far as frequency goes.

I am glad the brakes are not linked, I suppose.  If they were, it would take training and practice to start using the rear brake more.

The videos woudl be more real life it the riders would ride towards brick walls or barriers like they use at military bases. Occasionally these barriers could pop up and shorten their available stopping distance.

The lack of good visibility SHOULD have been my first sign to pay closer attention. Then again, it is difficult to think, or predict, a vehicle will hit their brakes the instant they SHOULD be accelerating.  Still, I admit what I was doign contributed to the problem.

I can see situations where abs might be a liability, but overall, I am glad to have it. 

[Scaffolder]

I love that video(since I'm not in it!). I love new tires!!!!

[Barry]

ABS is not a performance enhancing option for the bike.  It is simply to keep you upright when you make a mistake.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Give me ABS for the street every time.  Linked, not so much.  On the track, neither.

And from SoP above "My skill comes through hours in the saddle, riding and training, not in a device.  Want to feel safer?  Allow for greater following distances, learn to anticipate, adjust speed accordingly".

How about do all the above which makes perfect sense AND add ABS to the equation?  What is the down side?

Barry

[stevewfl]

ABS is not a performance enhancing option for the bike.  It is simply to keep you upright when you make a mistake.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Give me ABS for the street every time.  Linked, not so much.  On the track, neither.

And from SoP above "My skill comes through hours in the saddle, riding and training, not in a device.  Want to feel safer?  Allow for greater following distances, learn to anticipate, adjust speed accordingly".

How about do all the above which makes perfect sense AND add ABS to the equation?  What is the down side?

Barry

Many that prefer no ABS have told me the extra weight is a downside.  They've gotten better, but weight is still there.  When the Honda 600RR track weapon 1st came out with ABS it was pounds added to a bike people paid big bux per ounce to shed weight off of.

[Barry]

Many that prefer no ABS have told me the extra weight is a downside.  They've gotten better, but weight is still there.  When the Honda 600RR track weapon 1st came out with ABS it was pounds added to a bike people paid big bux per ounce to shed weight off of.

I would say the quote I referred to applies to street riding, not track riding.  Street riding, the ABS weight is neither here nor there.  I hope NOBODY rides hard enough on the street ( I don't think  you can ) that you notice the additional weight.

Also... note my comment of "neither" for the track.  Implies the street is where my concern with ABS lies.

YMMV,
Barry

[rtarp1]

@redbarber
  Spot on correct.

   And for the poster who posted the article where abs gives you longer stopping distances, here is the important part of the article.
   "As already stated, driving on high–traction surfaces, such as bitumen or concrete, whether wet or dry, a non ABS–equipped car, depending upon who is the driver, will be able to attain braking distances better (i.e. shorter) than those that would be easily possible with the benefit of ABS."
     
     First off this is a car and second the article says only high traction surfaces.  So lets just hope you never have an emergency stop on a low traction surface on your non abs bike because your going down.

[Son of Pappy]

No, and a good point. I had pulled the front brake, so I did recognize the threat.  However, when it started to lock I heard a small chirp, then abs took over.  It was at that point I hear it start to cycle so I'm looking at the threat of locked brakes, or brake as the case is since I dont really use the rear brake.  I would have had to release the front brake or let up some. There is no way I could have cycled on/off as quickly or frequently.  The sound reminded me of hearing concrete workers using a hammer drill as far as frequency goes.

I am glad the brakes are not linked, I suppose.  If they were, it would take training and practice to start using the rear brake more.

The videos woudl be more real life it the riders would ride towards brick walls or barriers like they use at military bases. Occasionally these barriers could pop up and shorten their available stopping distance.

The lack of good visibility SHOULD have been my first sign to pay closer attention. Then again, it is difficult to think, or predict, a vehicle will hit their brakes the instant they SHOULD be accelerating.  Still, I admit what I was doign contributed to the problem.

I can see situations where abs might be a liability, but overall, I am glad to have it.

You bring another interesting thing into play, in this particular case linked would have been better, in theory anyway..  You gave up some of your bikes braking potential, probably %10, all quick stops should be with both brakes applied.  Once you start reaching threshold braking the rear loses most of what it has to offer due to weight transfer, but that initial bite goes a long way when inches count.  If I could design an ABS system, it would be multi switcheable, front, rear, linked light and linked heavy.  Back tire skids result in some serious wrecks and the back tire is far harder to modulate, gross motor skills from the foot and fine motor skills from the hand (after the intial moment of panic) and weight transfer. 
I agree, ABS will compliment a well trained rider, but it becomes a crutch for a rider who isnt well skilled.  My advice-become fully familiar with whatever bike you have, find a stretch of road clear of traffic, get up to speed, and get a fistfull/toefull, realy work to get the ABS to work.  I do this with my non ABS bike, find that threshold.  Yes, I do this on wet surfaces as well. Practice, practice, practice.  This is a critical life saving skill, it sure doesn't hurt to have some trained eyes on ya, and most folks know or know of an instructor within their circle of friends.  I would never even think of charging for this kind of training, I hate rolling past the scene of an accident, it just turns my stomach.  So, if your in the PNW, look me up, lets find an empty lot and have some fun honing OUR skills

[Shad0hawK]

And for the poster who posted the article where abs gives you longer stopping distances, here is the important part of the article.
   "As already stated, driving on high–traction surfaces, such as bitumen or concrete, whether wet or dry, a non ABS–equipped car, depending upon who is the driver, will be able to attain braking distances better (i.e. shorter) than those that would be easily possible with the benefit of ABS."
      First off this is a car and second the article says only high traction surfaces.  So lets just hope you never have an emergency stop on a low traction surface on your non abs bike because your going down.

that article was referencing the study done by Monash university in 2004 and incorrectly quotes it(or was just cherry picking). i later posted a link directly to the study, which in section 2:4 states.

"ABS will not substantially reduce stopping distances in dry conditions, however in wet slippery conditions ABS is very effective in reducing stopping distances."
http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/Other/RACV%20ABS%20braking%20system%20effectiveness.pdf

"ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and many systems will shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as loose gravel or unpacked snow, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances."
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/equipment/absbrakes.html

both of these statements are general in nature, and as you so rightly pointed out we are talking about motorcycles..which brings us to all the videos you guys hate so much where we can actually see non-abs bikes outbraking abs bikes...i agree these do not prove ABS in general is better or worse than non ABS, i disagree with the assertion that only "superhumans" and "professionals" can do it. it has been my experience anyone that can do a stoppie can do it and i have never competed in any sort of sanctioned event, i am certainly not a professional or superhuman.

and BTW you have no @#$%^@#ing idea whether i will wipe out in any given situation or not, you do not know me and have never ridden with me so be to honest making that kind of judgment probobly comes from the same line of thinking that only a professional rider can brake correctly. since you maybe can't, my advice would be to hone your own skills by practice rather than making judgments about other people's skills of which you really have no idea.

[rtarp1]

In an emergency in less than ideal conditions even superman will go down.   Try emergency braking on some loose condions,  in a turn . Abs your staying up non ABS your going down .  ive seen it happen, the street is unforgiving and unpredictable . like so many on here say , "its not the track ". 
        there was no reason to get snippy from my post.    Physics are physics no matter how well you ride.

[Son of Pappy]

Improper braking, regardless of system used will result in a spill.  Will ABS make up for improper braking?  Maybe.  The best solution is time and space combined with proper braking technique.  Riding is inherantly dangerous, speed gives us stability, as we slow that stability decreases, posture and technique will pull you through when it matters most.

Group hug guys, lets save the sniping for the Arena

[lt1]

In an emergency in less than ideal conditions even superman will go down.   Try emergency braking on some loose condions,  in a turn . Abs your staying up non ABS your going down .  ive seen it happen, the street is unforgiving and unpredictable . like so many on here say , "its not the track ". 
        there was no reason to get snippy from my post.    Physics are physics no matter how well you ride.

What you are misunderstanding is that not everyone crashes in every emergency under less-than-ideal conditions.  That is what provoked the "snippy" response, and you have reiterated your error.  Also, the street is often very forgiving and mostly very predictable.  Not everyone panics in emergencies.  Not everyone falls down without ABS.  Not everyone with ABS "stays up.  To presume so is both naive and incorrect.  The odds improve with skills and ABS, but there is no fixed outcome based on your scenarios.  It's like saying that everyone who gets shot will die, or every smoker will get cancer.  Some do.  Many do.  But nowhere near all.

[roadie]

Group hug guys, lets save the sniping for the Arena

Right on! :-)

PS:  I luv's my ABS, and luv practicing hard stops in a controlled environment to feel it at work.  Just another tool in the arsenal of rider skills.  I've only been riding seriously for the last three years, and practice doesn't make perfect, just shows you how much more you have to learn.

Ride on.

Will

[Rawman]

I will get an ABS on my next bike.  I foolishly used to think I was better than any electronics messing with my brakes also.  Real world road conditions have proven otherwise. 
Background:  I have been riding 2 wheel vehicles for 35+ years, since I can remember.  As a kid, I got a dirt bike not a go-kart, and I have been riding ever since.  I practice my emergency stops, my slow, parking lot u-turns, I have almost no chicken strips on my tires.
Last fall, I was 2 up in Saint Augustine, FL (on a COG get-together) a beautiful fall day, sun was out and it was 72 degrees.  Coming to a stoplight, slightly downhill with three lanes going straight, one right turn lane and two left turn lanes.  I was in the right lane of the left turn lanes.  The light was red, there were a few cars in each left turn lane.  Suddenly the minivan in the straight lane decided he wanted to turn left and swerved into my lane.  Now under normal road conditions, this would not be a problem, I hit rear brake first, start to swerve, front brake applied smoothly.   I had plenty of room to avoid and still stop and I did not panic, However, there was that black patch of engine oil, grease, brake fluid, radiator fliud, a/c condensation, whatever in the middle of the lane and it was like ice.  The front tire locked and went out, and down we went low-side.  I am 90% sure if I had ABS the front tire would not have slid and I would have ended up in the left-most lane upright and only slightly perturbed at the mini-van.  But, my SO and I had a nice tour of the ER in Saint Augustine.

[Shad0hawK]

In an emergency in less than ideal conditions even superman will go down.   Try emergency braking on some loose condions,  in a turn . Abs your staying up non ABS your going down .  ive seen it happen, the street is unforgiving and unpredictable . like so many on here say , "its not the track ". 
        there was no reason to get snippy from my post.    Physics are physics no matter how well you ride.

maybe, maybe not. every situation is different. like i mentioned earlier, i have not owned a car in 4 years(not counting the previous 30 years of riding before that) and so have ridden in plenty of conditions less than ideal more times than i can count, including snow, thunderstorms..etc. and have had to make emergency adjustments more than a few times.  my argument has never been that ABS's ability to keep the bike under control...after all that is what it is designed to do! in fact i have mentioned more than once with all the riding i do in adverse conditions my bike WILL be an ABS bike. go back and reread. my argument  has been about stopping distance only. *edit* assuming it's teh back wheel losing traction..if the front wheel loses traction because oflateral forces yeah, the conclusion is bad.

i agree that physics are physics; so in the scenario you describe though ABS would do NOTHING when lateral forces cause traction loss, even on dry pavement the result would be the same with ABS not making any difference, easing up a wee bit on the gas then getting back on it however works wonders if the lowside has not completed.

[ZG]

 

[Shad0hawK]

but it's not bedtime yet