Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Rubber_Snake on August 23, 2017, 11:25:39 AM
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I searched around, and though I found some discussions related to the clutch and final drive, I haven't found any discussion related to this particular situation.
So, regardless of gear (I've checked 4, 5 & 6), when my Connie is at 75-80 mph, there is a loud howling noise that seems to be coming from the engine/transmission area. If I back off or speed up over that range, the noise goes away. While it's howling, if I pull in the clutch lever, it instantly goes away. This is why was hoping it could be related to the clutch and not the final drive. Considering that the final drive is always spinning at the same rpms at 75-80 mph and the clutch isn't because I've tested this in different gears, I'm thinking that it might be the in the FD. Otherwise, the bike runs flawlessly.
Has anyone ever experienced this?
Thanks guys,
Ray
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Right off the bat, let me say that I have never experienced this nor do I even have any reasonable (meaning logical, thoughtful) guesses. That said.....
You are correct in that the entire final drive, the bevel gears and 1/2 of the clutch all spin with the rear wheel. The rest of the clutch and the entire engine and transmission do not. Unfortunately, often a gear while will only sound under load so it may well be the final drive and the reason it quiets down when you pull in the clutch is because all load is removed from it, not because ti stopped turning. Running gears that are badly worn often show a line or ridge, and that is the cause of the noise but again, only under load.
The only thing that may be useful that I can think of to suggest would be to either have someone else ride with you, move around and perhaps lean over each side fo the bike enough to try and find the side of the noise source. Another thing might be an inexpensive mechanic's stethoscope with the probe removed so only the hose is left; pointing the end of the hose around should home in on the source of the noise pretty accurately.
Of course I realize this must all be done at highway speeds and so do so safely, perhaps including strapping the passenger to yourself while riding so nothing terrible can happen.
Last idea is to run the bike on a dynomometer. Unfortunately almost all of them in existence are DynoJet dynos, and they are not 'real' dynos capable of putting a load on the bike at a steady speed. Still, a DynoJet dyno would allow you to repeatedly power the bike up through that speed range while others stood and listened for the noise; it should not take very many cycles to find it as you describe it as a howl.
Best of luck with this....
Brian
I searched around, and though I found some discussions related to the clutch and final drive, I haven't found any discussion related to this particular situation.
So, regardless of gear (I've checked 4, 5 & 6), when my Connie is at 75-80 mph, there is a loud howling noise that seems to be coming from the engine/transmission area. If I back off or speed up over that range, the noise goes away. While it's howling, if I pull in the clutch lever, it instantly goes away. This is why was hoping it could be related to the clutch and not the final drive. Considering that the final drive is always spinning at the same rpms at 75-80 mph and the clutch isn't because I've tested this in different gears, I'm thinking that it might be the in the FD. Otherwise, the bike runs flawlessly.
Has anyone ever experienced this?
Thanks guys,
Ray
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Like Brian, I have never heard of this issue before. You didn't say WHICH oil.... if it is related to the clutch (and I am not saying it is), keep in mind that generally you should use a motorcycle grade oil (synthetic or not) because it has the right amount of additives for wet clutches.
You should add the model year to your signature and/or avatar (and minimally each post), and also indicating how many miles on the bike would also be useful for those trying to help you.
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Like Brian, I have never heard of this issue before. You didn't say WHICH oil.... if it is related to the clutch (and I am not saying it is), keep in mind that generally you should use a motorcycle grade oil (synthetic or not) because it has the right amount of additives for wet clutches.
You should add the model year to your signature and/or avatar (and minimally each post), and also indicating how many miles on the bike would also be useful for those trying to help you.
Duly noted, sir. AMSoil Synthetic 10W-40, I do not know what type of gear oil is being used right now. I bought it from a friend. I'll check with him.
Thank you.
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Duly noted, sir. AMSoil Synthetic 10W-40, I do not know what type of gear oil is being used right now. I bought it from a friend. I'll check with him.
Thank you.
Running AMSOIL 10W-40 engine and 75W-90 gear since new.
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Running AMSOIL 10W-40 engine and 75W-90 gear since new.
Kewl. Note that Amsoil makes both motorcycle and non-motorcycle oils. This is the motorcycle one: http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/motorcycle/10w-40-synthetic-metric-motorcycle-oil (http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/motorcycle/10w-40-synthetic-metric-motorcycle-oil)
Smooth, Confident Shifts: AMSOIL Synthetic Metric Motorcycle Oil contains no friction modifiers and promotes smooth shifting and positive clutch engagement. It is engineered to control heat and prevent slippage and glazing, promoting longer clutch life.
I am not sure just how much real-world difference there is between motorcycle and non-motorcycle oils, but I have always used the latter.
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Interesting noise,possibly output gear related noise if it goes when the clutch is pulled in.
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The only issue regarding wet clutches and the oil used with them that I know of is oils containing some very specific, extreme pressure additives. These oils are rare, if available to road use consumers at all. Some oil additives do contain them.
Many motorcycles with wet clutches use and have been using automotive oils for years with both excellent success but more importantly, no clutch problems.
And the problem they cause is slippage between the plates but nothing that would generate noise.
I do not believe the oil used in this motorcycle can or has caused any clutch damage that could result in his stated problem. While he may not yet know what the problem is, I would not look toward an oil- damaged clutch anytime early int the diagnostic cycle. Besides that, it is very easy to tell if a clutch is slipping; put the bike in a fairly high gear, say, 4th or higher and stab the throttle while watching the spedo and tach. If they 'split', meaning the tach. suddenly runs away from the speed at which the speedo is climbing, the clutch is slipping. Otherwise, all is well regarding clutch slippage. But again, I do not think this is a worthwhile place to look.
My purpose here is not really about oil, it is about trying to steer this poster toward his problem as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Brian
Like Brian, I have never heard of this issue before. You didn't say WHICH oil.... if it is related to the clutch (and I am not saying it is), keep in mind that generally you should use a motorcycle grade oil (synthetic or not) because it has the right amount of additives for wet clutches.
You should add the model year to your signature and/or avatar (and minimally each post), and also indicating how many miles on the bike would also be useful for those trying to help you.
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I do not believe the oil used in this motorcycle can or has caused any clutch damage that could result in his stated problem. [...]My purpose here is not really about oil, it is about trying to steer this poster toward his problem as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Agreed. I seriously doubt it is the oil, just addressing that part of the subject with no intent of trying to steer it into YAOT (yet another oil thread).
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Does the noise go away when on over run at the speed you refer to? If it reoccurs when throttle is applied then I would suggest diff period noise.I.E., crown wheel to pinion mating noise.
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Does the noise go away when on over run at the speed you refer to? If it reoccurs when throttle is applied then I would suggest diff period noise.I.E., crown wheel to pinion mating noise.
Hey Smokin',
I'm not sure what you're asking, but generally I hear the howl when either slowly accelerating through that speed range (75-80) or just maintaining a speed there. As soon as I go past or drop below, it goes away. I haven't tried accelerating hard through the speed range, if that's what you're asking. (Or, to be more specific, paid attention to the noise when hard on the throttle). If so, I'll give it a try and report back.
P.S. I use the AMSOIL Metric synth.
Ray
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Brian,
No howling but didn't your bike whistle?
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Yes, that was me and my bike. Annoying but not harmful; it was up around the fairing / windshield area. Never found it either although it did quiet down somewhat.
It annoyed me enough that I was covering 1/2 of the front of the bike with Hefty garbage bags at a time in an effort to find it and still I could not locate that damn thing.
Brian
Brian,
No howling but didn't your bike whistle?
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I'm leaning towards dive shaft and or bevel gear..Pop the drive shaft out and take a look.
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Yes, that was me and my bike. Annoying but not harmful; it was up around the fairing / windshield area. Never found it either although it did quiet down somewhat.
It annoyed me enough that I was covering 1/2 of the front of the bike with Hefty garbage bags at a time in an effort to find it and still I could not locate that damn thing.
Brian
When I wash my bike I use my leaf blower to get the water out of the nooks and crannies. While doing this I discovered a whistling sound coming from the hollow front axle when the blower hits it just so. Maybe that's where your whistle comes from?
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Was a bird nesting in it?
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IME, they tend to go for the slower, easier- to- catch bikes like the ones with floorboards.....
Grinnin', Duckin' and Runnin'
Brian
Was a bird nesting in it?
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Interesting idea! It could be the source, what was really odd about it was that I could not locate it or even get a sense of where it was coming from. If it was the axle, then the noise would probably come up in front of the tank and bounce all around the fairing, so that would explain the lack of a single source of the noise.
Oh well, at least it must have been a treat for others to watch me ride down the road with a black Hefty bag draped over 1/2 of the front end of the bike; at least it took a little heat of Mr. Elkhoof probably 'cause it is hard to notice the 2" crevice in the bottom of the Grand Canyon.
Brian
When I wash my bike I use my leaf blower to get the water out of the nooks and crannies. While doing this I discovered a whistling sound coming from the hollow front axle when the blower hits it just so. Maybe that's where your whistle comes from?
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IME, they tend to go for the slower, easier- to- catch bikes like the ones with floorboards.....
Grinnin', Duckin' and Runnin'
Brian
:battle: :rotflmao:
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Hey Smokin',
I'm not sure what you're asking, but generally I hear the howl when either slowly accelerating through that speed range (75-80) or just maintaining a speed there. As soon as I go past or drop below, it goes away. I haven't tried accelerating hard through the speed range, if that's what you're asking. (Or, to be more specific, paid attention to the noise when hard on the throttle). If so, I'll give it a try and report back.
P.S. I use the AMSOIL Metric synth.
Ray
Ray it doesn't sound like gear or bearing noise from your above information,usually bearing or gear noise tends to be constant,especially bearing noise.Diff gear noise can be a period type noise at certain speeds which can be driven through occurs either on throttle or over run.
I would check tyres for defects,do you have a rear wheel hugger?,it so make sure it is not rubbing in any spot as the tyre distorts at speed.
As for an oil problem,no I doubt it.
I also use Amsoil 10w40 synthetic oil and their 75w90 diff oil since 3000kms,now covered 15500 km with no concerns.
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Was a bird nesting in it?
That would have been a humming sound me thinks.
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Ray, I'll offer one thought. I learned this, the hard way.
At one point, I put by bike on a front stand. I did it just to see if my stand (pit bull) was strong enough.
My stock bike had a plug, in the steering stem, bottom side. To get the peg in place, I had to remove the plug. Of course, I did not remember to put the rubber plug back in place.
At 70-80, and only there, the bike made a sound as if I were blowing across a bottle top.
It might be worth checking as you could cover that hole with a piece of tape, just to see if it helps.
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Ray, I'll offer one thought. I learned this, the hard way.
At one point, I put by bike on a front stand. I did it just to see if my stand (pit bull) was strong enough.
My stock bike had a plug, in the steering stem, bottom side. To get the peg in place, I had to remove the plug. Of course, I did not remember to put the rubber plug back in place.
At 70-80, and only there, the bike made a sound as if I were blowing across a bottle top.
It might be worth checking as you could cover that hole with a piece of tape, just to see if it helps.
Interesting. I checked (it's just above the front fender?), and there isn't a plug there. Just a 1 ½ inch hole...
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Update: No joy.
So this morning, before it got too hot (Central Valley heatwave), I covered the steering stem hole with some duct tape in hopes that it could be just as simple as rcannon suggested. (Thanks for the suggestion rc!). Alas, the howling was still there.
It certainly sounds like its coming up from the front more so than the back, but that could be because the sound has nowhere else travel except the through opening at the forks.
Something else I noticed, and this might help you experienced diagnosers, I can detect a hint of the howling noise between 40-44 mph. Same thing with the clutch, as soon as I start to pull the clutch in and get into the grey area or completely pulled in, the sound goes away.
I took two phone videos of the noise. The first vid I just rode up to 78 in 4th gear and demonstrated how pulling in the clutch cuts the sound. The second, I rode up to 78 and demoed the sound in 4th, 5th and 6th gears, and then tried to video from the front of the bike to the rear. Unfortunately for the second vid, the wind noise is too great to really tell.
In the video, the noise doesn't sound so bad, but, from the seat, it is pretty loud.
Now I just need to figure out how to get the video to you all...
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Here's a link to the first video:
https://youtu.be/diUhHyZuCPI
Basically, I sped up to 78, was in 4th gear, and pulled in the clutch a few times. I stopped recording as soon as I started to slow but you can just catch how the sound goes away when I do.
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Your clutch noise is normal. 8)
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Your clutch noise is normal. 8)
Damn! You think so, JMac? LOL.
The video really doesn't do it justice as to how loud it is.
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Well, a video (+ audio) is worth a thousand words. I do hear what is almost a "tone" and could tell the short several times you pulled in the clutch starting at 19 seconds (you can see the tach jump too). Good job and good idea. The tone is changing pitch with RPM, so this is not wind noise or other such stuff. I can't tell how loud that "tone" is from the video, although to me it doesn't sound loud. I have not noticed such a sound on mine before, so I am not going to declare it "normal" at this point; but it could be (plus my helmet is loud AND I wear earplugs/earphones). Very interested to see what others say.
Your problem is this: If it is truly related to speed, then it probably can't be the clutch or engine (since clutch and engine both see RPM, not speed). Those would produce a similar sound at various speeds in each gear. It could be the differential or transmission, which DO see speed. With the differential, when you pull in the clutch, although the differential is still spinning, it has no power load on it anymore (the load goes backwards) and that could make a sound from it disappear.
I am perplexed at the moment. How OLD is the differential oil and have you checked the level? (Long shot, but hey, just another thing to eliminate).
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I kept waiting for an unusual noise and then the vid ended.
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Well, a video (+ audio) is worth a thousand words. I do hear what is almost a "tone" and could tell the short several times you pulled in the clutch starting at 19 seconds (you can see the tach jump too). Good job and good idea. The tone is changing pitch with RPM, so this is not wind noise or other such stuff. I can't tell how loud that "tone" is from the video, although to me it doesn't sound loud. I have not noticed such a sound on mine before, so I am not going to declare it "normal" at this point; but it could be (plus my helmet is loud AND I wear earplugs/earphones). Very interested to see what others say.
Your problem is this: If it is truly related to speed, then it probably can't be the clutch or engine (since clutch and engine both see RPM, not speed). Those would produce a similar sound at various speeds in each gear. It could be the differential or transmission, which DO see speed. With the differential, when you pull in the clutch, although the differential is still spinning, it has no power load on it anymore (the load goes backwards) and that could make a sound from it disappear.
I am perplexed at the moment. How OLD is the differential oil and have you checked the level? (Long shot, but hey, just another thing to eliminate).
Diff oil changed with every oil change. My motor sergeant/friend is obsessive...
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Check the exhaust header bolts to head,sounds to me like a possible exhaust leak around that area.That might explain why it goes away when you pull in the clutch,engine goes back to idle.
Just a thought.
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Is this sound something started recently?
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Check the exhaust header bolts to head,sounds to me like a possible exhaust leak around that area.That might explain why it goes away when you pull in the clutch,engine goes back to idle.
Just a thought.
Thanks for the thought, Joe. I tightened the header bolts a couple of months ago. They needed it, but I never detected an exhaust leak.
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Is this sound something started recently?
I can't be certain that it started all of a sudden. I just noticed it while riding. I asked the previous owner and he couldn't recall ever hearing that sound.
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So I just got back from a trip to Mount Rushmore and some of the accompanying areas, Deadwood, Devil's Tower, Craters of the Moon...
The bike performed flawlessly. The noise was still there from the 75-80 range, but I just got used to it. The only curious thing was twice, when I had my cellphone on the accessory charger, when I turned of the ignition key, it "blipped" on and off about 3 to 5 times before staying off. Weird, but it only happened twice.
In total, 8 days of riding, 3245 miles, and one SORE butt! Thank God I put a new Stealth seat on her before the trip, or I would've been miserable.
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Have you pulled the Drive shaft to see how much lube is still left on the splines after eight years? They come pretty dry from the factory. That howl sure sounds like gear whine. Just asking?
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Have you pulled the Drive shaft to see how much lube is still left on the splines after eight years? They come pretty dry from the factory. That howl sure sounds like gear whine. Just asking?
No. And I suspect that it has never been done. I will research the "how to" and do it myself.
Thanks for the tip!
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The only curious thing was twice, when I had my cellphone on the accessory charger, when I turned of the ignition key, it "blipped" on and off about 3 to 5 times before staying off. Weird, but it only happened twice.
That happens with certain electrical add-on accessories, like LED lighting on the turn signals. On mine, it will go crazy if I have any flasher operating (or maybe just the emergency flashers) when the ignition is turned off.
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That happens with certain electrical add-on accessories, like LED lighting on the turn signals. On mine, it will go crazy if I have any flasher operating (or maybe just the emergency flashers) when the ignition is turned off.
Thanks Max. I DID install a solid state flasher and put LEDs in the rear signals. In fact, today, I just installed the switchback dry/turnsignal lights in the front. Gonna convert the rears to tail/brake/signals next...
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No. And I suspect that it has never been done. I will research the "how to" and do it myself.
Thanks for the tip!
Is this a good demo of how to R&R the driveshaft?:
https://youtu.be/aIL_9iEvvIE
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Thanks Max. I DID install a solid state flasher and put LEDs in the rear signals. In fact, today, I just installed the switchback dry/turnsignal lights in the front. Gonna convert the rears to tail/brake/signals next...
I think it has something to do with leakback through ground. I just know it is scary as hell when it happens, and doesn't look like it can be good for the bike.
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That happens with certain electrical add-on accessories, like LED lighting on the turn signals. On mine, it will go crazy if I have any flasher operating (or maybe just the emergency flashers) when the ignition is turned off.
It happens with both the 4-ways and the turn signal. I just got in the habit of turning them off before the ignition. Kind of like a shutdown checklist.
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I tried to run a signal cancel device. The Kisan unit. The company would not stand behind a defective unit...
It actually worked, for about 15 minutes, but thats not even the point....
When I installed it, I turned my bike to the start position, and the electronic system freaked out. I had flashing, beeping, completely out of control.
I came back in and googled the issue. Someone had made a post, from years earlier, and mentioned pulling the KIPASS talk back fuse. I pulled this fuse, and everything was normal again. That thread is right here:
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=5174.15 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=5174.15)
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Sorry for the delay. I blame Irma as I now have electricity again. :o
Rubber_Snake I asked if it was a new noise because mine has had a gear whine noise since day one.
Me, 2009 ABS with 122,000 miles. :)
I hear it when cruising, steady throttle, at 75 to 80. Full face helmet and ear plugs.
Seems to come from the output shaft area just in front of my left ankle.
The rare times without earplugs riding, think grocery store to gas station, first gear has a good "spooling up" sound.
I wouldn't worry about it unless it bothers you. IMO 8)
Others may say pull the final drive and moly paste the :censored: out of everything.
Winter is coming if you need a project. :chugbeer:
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Sorry for the delay. I blame Irma as I now have electricity again. :o
Rubber_Snake I asked if it was a new noise because mine has had a gear whine noise since day one.
Me, 2009 ABS with 122,000 miles. :)
I hear it when cruising, steady throttle, at 75 to 80. Full face helmet and ear plugs.
Seems to come from the output shaft area just in front of my left ankle.
The rare times without earplugs riding, think grocery store to gas station, first gear has a good "spooling up" sound.
I wouldn't worry about it unless it bothers you. IMO 8)
Others may say pull the final drive and moly paste the :censored: out of everything.
Winter is coming if you need a project. :chugbeer:
You know, you might be right about this. I'm thinking that I will pull the final drive and moly paste the :censored: out of it! I can't find the Honda 60 stuff online. I think they do not produce it anymore. Is the Honda M-77 a good replacement?
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Any moly paste with at least 50% solid content will work; the newer Honda stuff is fine but expensive. The old Honda moly paste was the bargain of the century but it is no longer available.
There are other sources as well, such as Loctite, which are also fine to use.
Brian
You know, you might be right about this. I'm thinking that I will pull the final drive and moly past the :censored: out of it! I can't find the Honda 60 stuff online. I think they do not produce it anymore. Is the Honda M-77 a good replacement?
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I'll bet that newer Honda stuff would be fine, but if I were making a special order to get it, I would order this, instead...why not use the best after all the labor involved? The dow corning 77 was VERY similar to the old Honda stuff.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DOW-CORNING-MOLYKOTE-M77-Paste-Grease-Lubricant-Lube-oz-Silicone-Oil-Moly-MoS2-/281006528716 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DOW-CORNING-MOLYKOTE-M77-Paste-Grease-Lubricant-Lube-oz-Silicone-Oil-Moly-MoS2-/281006528716)
Notice how small the container is. Maybe get two of them?