Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Nocage on July 03, 2017, 07:25:14 PM

Title: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: Nocage on July 03, 2017, 07:25:14 PM
Hello,

I recently bought a new 2016 Concours (my second Concours. Love the bike). At 612 miles I did the initial service myself (I try to do all my own work). At 1,200 miles I noticed the ground beneath my final drive swingarm dust cover wet. I think the final drive oil is leaking from the swingarm dust cover. Does anyone have experience to why this is happening? I read that overfilling the final drive could cause leaking, but from a seal? Also, if it's leaking from the seal, I assume this means the seal is no longer good and it must be replaced?

Please see the attached pictures. I'm not sure if I identified the correct seal in the blow-out diagram.

Thank you
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 04, 2017, 05:58:00 AM
I think I would replace the 92055 as well.
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: gPink on July 04, 2017, 06:15:07 AM
Looks like warranty work.

Had you just washed the bike?
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 04, 2017, 07:06:37 AM
Agreed.  Let the dealer handle it.
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: maxtog on July 04, 2017, 07:23:30 AM
Also agreed
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 04, 2017, 07:31:07 AM
Way back when, in the early years of the C14, sometimes there would be a weep at that location.   And by weep, I mean barely a shadow of drive oil.   This was considered normal and once cleaned off would never re-appear.  In this case, it appears to be a down right leak.
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: B.D.F. on July 04, 2017, 07:36:50 AM
Interesting, and a new spot for a leak as far as I know. The interesting thing is that there is no lube above that joint so the leak is either before or after that pivot point.

Fastest way to tell is..... now, we need and Easy Boys! up front on thie one, is to stick you finger in the puddle and smell it. If it stinks, it is lube from the final drive ('rear end lube' or 'hypoid grease'). If it just smells like engine oil, then it is coming from the bevel gear housing on the transmission.

But as others have said, either way, a warranty issue. Hopefully you have a dealer around that is competent and that you trust, and whatever is the source of the leak will not be a problem.

Best of luck getting it repaired.

Brian

Quote from: Nocage on July 03, 2017, 07:25:14 PM
Hello,

I recently bought a new 2016 Concours (my second Concours. Love the bike). At 612 miles I did the initial service myself (I try to do all my own work). At 1,200 miles I noticed the ground beneath my final drive swingarm dust cover wet. I think the final drive oil is leaking from the swingarm dust cover. Does anyone have experience to why this is happening? I read that overfilling the final drive could cause leaking, but from a seal? Also, if it's leaking from the seal, I assume this means the seal is no longer good and it must be replaced?

Please see the attached pictures. I'm not sure if I identified the correct seal in the blow-out diagram.

Thank you
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: Nocage on July 04, 2017, 10:20:06 AM
Thanks for all the replies. Answer to the questions asked:

The bike hasn't been washed for a few weeks. The leak stinks.

I made an appointment with Roseville Kawasaki. Soonest they can see the bike is on the 24th, which really sucks. The bigger problem is I don't know which dealer to trust. Seems like within my vicinity (Folsom, CA) I only have a few options:

Roseville Kawasaki
PCP Motorsports
Good Time Motorsports (never taking my bike here again. They bent my front wheel when changing tires ones and tried to pin it on me. By bent I mean to the point where the tire wouldn't cup the wheel and the PSI was rapidly being lost as I was riding home. They actually hid the problem and had me ride the bike home).

Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: B.D.F. on July 04, 2017, 11:29:59 AM
OK, then it is lube from the final drive- this should be easier / faster to fix, and with less risk to any peripheral parts.

Any chance the final drive is overfilled? If so, that alone might be the problem. If not, there is a seal (really just an O-ring) at the end of the driveshaft drive spline that looks like it would be the only source of rear end grease getting up the driveshaft to leak out beyond the bellows. If that is it, a very simple solution although the driveshaft has to come out to get at it.

Best of luck with the dealer. If by any chance you have a combination Kawasaki / BMW dealer anywhere near in the area, you might want to check them out; BMW usually has an excellent dealer network so any other brands a BMW dealer handles often seem to benefit in quality of work.

Easy Boys!Easy Boys!Easy Boys!Easy Boys!Easy Boys!  Some assembly required- put these wherever you think they should go.

Brian

Quote from: Nocage on July 04, 2017, 10:20:06 AM
Thanks for all the replies. Answer to the questions asked:

The bike hasn't been washed for a few weeks. The leak stinks.

I made an appointment with Roseville Kawasaki. Soonest they can see the bike is on the 24th, which really sucks. The bigger problem is I don't know which dealer to trust. Seems like within my vicinity (Folsom, CA) I only have a few options:

Roseville Kawasaki
PCP Motorsports
Good Time Motorsports (never taking my bike here again. They bent my front wheel when changing tires ones and tried to pin it on me. By bent I mean to the point where the tire wouldn't cup the wheel and the PSI was rapidly being lost as I was riding home. They actually hid the problem and had me ride the bike home).
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: Nocage on July 04, 2017, 11:20:59 PM
I didn't think I overfilled the final drive, but after reading other posts, i'm not sure. I followed the service manual, except I put the bike on the center stand. Apparently, that's incorrect. I was supposed to keep the rear wheel on the ground while centering the bike. I don't know if this makes enough of a difference to cause the leak at the swing arm.

If I did overfill the final drive, which caused the leak from the seal, the seal still needs to be replaced, right? Also, I thought there is a vent that's supposed to handle overfilling?

Thank you

Quote from: B.D.F. on July 04, 2017, 11:29:59 AM
OK, then it is lube from the final drive- this should be easier / faster to fix, and with less risk to any peripheral parts.

Any chance the final drive is overfilled? If so, that alone might be the problem. If not, there is a seal (really just an O-ring) at the end of the driveshaft drive spline that looks like it would be the only source of rear end grease getting up the driveshaft to leak out beyond the bellows. If that is it, a very simple solution although the driveshaft has to come out to get at it.

Best of luck with the dealer. If by any chance you have a combination Kawasaki / BMW dealer anywhere near in the area, you might want to check them out; BMW usually has an excellent dealer network so any other brands a BMW dealer handles often seem to benefit in quality of work.

Easy Boys!Easy Boys!Easy Boys!Easy Boys!Easy Boys!  Some assembly required- put these wherever you think they should go.

Brian
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: B.D.F. on July 05, 2017, 12:31:33 AM
First of all, yeah, there is a difference how full the various fluids in the bike appear depending on whether the bike is actually resting on the front tire or rear tire. That said, I personally do not think it all that big of a deal and do not worry about it in my own bike, which made 100K miles without ever consuming a drop of oil and no drivetrain mechanical problems. That certainly is not proof that what I did is a great or even correct way to do it, just that it is not disastrous.

There have been some reports of final drives filled the what the manufacturer calls 'full' and then leaking. Reducing the fill level to the bottom of the fill hole instead of the top has been reported to stop these leaks, actually weeps. I would have thought exactly what you mentioned- that is what the seals and vent are there for. ?? So yes, I would think the driveshaft seal would seal the final drive if filled to the correct level but at the same time, if reducing the volume a little bit stops the seepage, that is perfect IMO. No trip to the dealer, no worry about a dealer's competence. Easy enough to try too, just take a little fluid out of the drive with a straw or something, get the level to the bottom of the filler hole threads and all is well. You can certainly give it a try and if nothing else, give yourself some more time to research Kawasaki dealers in your area before taking the bike in for that repair.

Brian

Quote from: Nocage on July 04, 2017, 11:20:59 PM
I didn't think I overfilled the final drive, but after reading other posts, i'm not sure. I followed the service manual, except I put the bike on the center stand. Apparently, that's incorrect. I was supposed to keep the rear wheel on the ground while centering the bike. I don't know if this makes enough of a difference to cause the leak at the swing arm.

If I did overfill the final drive, which caused the leak from the seal, the seal still needs to be replaced, right? Also, I thought there is a vent that's supposed to handle overfilling?

Thank you
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 05, 2017, 05:18:31 AM
I've always drained/filled the rear drive on the center stand but I never have filled it full till it runs out over the threads.  I usually stop the fill about a quarter inch or so below the threads.   Never had an issue.
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: maxtog on July 05, 2017, 05:34:07 AM
I follow the instructions exactly (center stand, all the way to the mouth of the opening), and haven't had any problems.  That stuff is stinky.
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: chap on July 06, 2017, 07:48:06 AM
I always fill mine on the sidestand. Seems to work well for me.
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: oldnslo on July 06, 2017, 10:54:28 AM
Quote from: Nocage on July 03, 2017, 07:25:14 PM
Hello,

I recently bought a new 2016 Concours (my second Concours. Love the bike). At 612 miles I did the initial service myself (I try to do all my own work). At 1,200 miles I noticed the ground beneath my final drive swingarm dust cover wet. I think the final drive oil is leaking from the swingarm dust cover. Does anyone have experience to why this is happening? I read that overfilling the final drive could cause leaking, but from a seal? Also, if it's leaking from the seal, I assume this means the seal is no longer good and it must be replaced?

Please see the attached pictures. I'm not sure if I identified the correct seal in the blow-out diagram.

Thank you
i have a 2016 and at 5k the pinion seal dropped it's cookies. made  a big mess on rear wheel and tire.  letting dealer handle i on warranty. looks like a crinic problem on the 16's...
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: oldnslo on July 07, 2017, 12:19:27 PM
Quote from: oldnslo on July 06, 2017, 10:54:28 AM
i have a 2016 and at 5k the pinion seal dropped it's cookies. made  a big mess on rear wheel and tire.  letting dealer handle i on warranty. looks like a crinic problem on the 16's...
update: dealer just called and told me that the 2015 and 2016 have a new seal arrangement and it has caused some to leak.. mother kaw told dealer to order a whole new driveshaft assy to fix the leak. :'(
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: B.D.F. on July 07, 2017, 01:53:15 PM
Great news for you and thank you for posting this, it is useful information  for everyone!

Brian

Quote from: oldnslo on July 07, 2017, 12:19:27 PM
update: dealer just called and told me that the 2015 and 2016 have a new seal arrangement and it has caused some to leak.. mother kaw told dealer to order a whole new driveshaft assy to fix the leak. :'(
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: maxtog on July 07, 2017, 03:05:10 PM
Quote from: oldnslo on July 07, 2017, 12:19:27 PM
update: dealer just called and told me that the 2015 and 2016 have a new seal arrangement and it has caused some to leak.. mother kaw told dealer to order a whole new driveshaft assy to fix the leak. :'(

That in interesting and strange.  One, that the design (which seems to work fine) would need a new arrangement.  And two, that the entire assembly would need to be replaced just to address a seal leak!
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: B.D.F. on July 07, 2017, 05:30:50 PM
I went through something similar when they replaced both the final drive and bevel gear ass'y on my bike: dealers basically do not service those assemblies because it is not cost effective for them to do it that way. Kawasaki wanted the gears out of the final drive and bevel gear ass'y from my bike but replaced both units as assemblies; they (Kawasaki USA) told me they basically never provide the internal parts to these ass'y's to dealers because swapping parts and adding labor at the dealer costs (both the customer and the dealer) more money to do it that way. So I would assume this is the same deal; replacing the entire ass'y is just more cost effective.

Not sure of that in this case of course, just my opinion based on other, similar situations.

Brian

Quote from: maxtog on July 07, 2017, 03:05:10 PM
That in interesting and strange.  One, that the design (which seems to work fine) would need a new arrangement.  And two, that the entire assembly would need to be replaced just to address a seal leak!
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 07, 2017, 08:16:26 PM
I can imagine someone around the Saki table, after several rounds, saying:
Okane o setsuyaku suru aidea ga aru


Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: oldnslo on July 08, 2017, 11:17:28 AM
Quote from: maxtog on July 07, 2017, 03:05:10 PM
That in interesting and strange.  One, that the design (which seems to work fine) would need a new arrangement.  And two, that the entire assembly would need to be replaced just to address a seal leak!
the decision from maw kaw came after the seals and orings were changed and they still leaked.only the driveshaft assy is being changed, apparently the leak is at the oring on the driveshaft where it enters the final drive, as it was explained to me by the dealer... ???
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: jwh20 on July 08, 2017, 05:27:33 PM
SISF made a video that is quite helpful in understanding the internals of the driveshaft and final drive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r213hax4D9o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r213hax4D9o)
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: oldnslo on July 10, 2017, 02:32:46 PM
Quote from: jwh20 on July 08, 2017, 05:27:33 PM
SISF made a video that is quite helpful in understanding the internals of the driveshaft and final drive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r213hax4D9o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r213hax4D9o)
and the story continues...the oring on the driveshaft for 15/16, has a hard sleeve ov the top of it, and the sleeve is apparently the problem.. i was told this was change on the 2015 c14.. kaw engineers gave .an answer to a question that was never asked...go figure... ???
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: Nocage on July 10, 2017, 03:02:40 PM
I emptied some of the final drive fluid, but the leak continues. Probably a bad seal. I took the bike to a different dealer. They said it will take about a week to report back to me.

Will keep you guys posted. Thanks for all the help.
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: oldnslo on July 13, 2017, 06:14:42 PM
Quote from: oldnslo on July 10, 2017, 02:32:46 PM
and the story continues...the oring on the driveshaft for 15/16, has a hard sleeve ov the top of it, and the sleeve is apparently the problem.. i was told this was change on the 2015 c14.. kaw engineers gave .an answer to a question that was never asked...go figure... ???
new driveshaft and seal fixed it...ma kaw opted to change entire driveshaft because it wasn't fair to dealer to force them to buy a very expensive special tool to install the new style seal... :)
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: gPink on July 13, 2017, 06:30:43 PM
Glad you got it sorted. I wonder what flatrate and tooling would have priced out at.  :o
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: mikeyw64 on July 13, 2017, 11:56:21 PM
Quote from: oldnslo on July 13, 2017, 06:14:42 PM
new driveshaft and seal fixed it...ma kaw opted to change entire driveshaft because it wasn't fair to dealer to force them to buy a very expensive special tool to install the new style seal... :)

Poor forward thinking (although a result for you)

What happens a bit further down the line when seals start wearing out due to wear & tear ?
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 14, 2017, 06:50:30 AM
Yet another reason to stay with the older gens..
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: gPink on July 14, 2017, 06:52:39 AM
Quote from: VirginiaJim on July 14, 2017, 06:50:30 AM
Yet another reason to stay with the superior older gens..
fify
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: B.D.F. on July 14, 2017, 07:35:11 AM
I would be interested in seeing this expensive, special tool. ??

Glad you got to the end and your shaft is not leaking anymore....

Brian

Quote from: oldnslo on July 13, 2017, 06:14:42 PM
new driveshaft and seal fixed it...ma kaw opted to change entire driveshaft because it wasn't fair to dealer to force them to buy a very expensive special tool to install the new style seal... :)
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: oldnslo on July 14, 2017, 11:09:21 AM
Quote from: B.D.F. on July 14, 2017, 07:35:11 AM
I would be interested in seeing this expensive, special tool. ??

Glad you got to the end and your shaft is not leaking anymore....

Brian
it is shown in the factory repair manual for my 2016 c14
Title: Re: Final Drive Oil Leaking from Swingarm?
Post by: B.D.F. on July 14, 2017, 11:33:55 AM
Interesting.

Now I am going to have to look up a 2016 service manual and take a look.

It is probably time to stop by the dealer or maybe even call Kawasaki and see if I can get a list of sub- generation changes to the bike. These things tend to 'get away' from us and the next thing is that stuff just ain't like it used to be and everything you knew no longer applies. I still remember the first time I ran into Gen. 2 fairing removal. Actually the removal was only a mild pain, the reassembly was more frustrating.

Brian

Quote from: oldnslo on July 14, 2017, 11:09:21 AM
it is shown in the factory repair manual for my 2016 c14