Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: elektradw on November 03, 2016, 05:40:34 PM
-
Iv had both TPS replaced under warranty on my 2011. I recently had valves and plugs done and ever since my front TPS delays showing up on the digital display sometimes for over 10 minutes. Both tire pressure readings should display rather quickly. The display does not show the battery low indicator just --. I would assume that the sensor uses bluetooth to transfer data and I wonder if there is a small antenna under the hood that might have gotten kinked or broken. Once the reading comes up on the digital display it will stay until the bike is shut off. Then it will take another 10 minutes to reappear. Any ideas on why this is occurring?
-
First I've heard of that one. Were the valves and plugs done by a dealer?
-
I would say it is more likely that the front sensor's motion activated power switch is sticky or not quite right and is not activating and turning the unit on when it should. It might get better over time.... but then again, it might get worse or just stay the same. If it were me, I would report it to the dealer and tell them I will check back with them in a month or something. If it doesn't improve, have them replace it again.
-
That does seem awfully coincidental with the other work, though. Working fine before and now not so much?
-
I would say it is more likely that the front sensor's motion activated power switch is sticky or not quite right and is not activating and turning the unit on when it should. It might get better over time.... but then again, it might get worse or just stay the same. If it were me, I would report it to the dealer and tell them I will check back with them in a month or something. If it doesn't improve, have them replace it again.
Soooo...
It might change or stay the same eh Max? ;)
I've seen my displays delayed for a bit. It's never both though and never 10 mins or more.
-
Soooo...
It might change or stay the same eh Max? ;)
Yeah, that sounded pretty damn stupid when I went back and read it. Good for a laugh!
I've seen my displays delayed for a bit. It's never both though and never 10 mins or more.
Mine never delay more than around a minute at the most. I would say it is typically about 10 to 20 seconds.
-
There are no moving parts inside the TPMS modules. There is an electronic accelerometer that detects the wheel motion and triggers the module to turn on. The TPMS modules communicate directly with the KiPass ECU under the seat via RF at 315 MHz (in the US, other parts of the world use a different frequency, 400 MHz I think) and the antenna is internal to the ECU.
I've noticed that sometimes it takes longer to register than others, may be due to RF interference or just takes some time for the thing to start talking. It's also possible that you do have a bad battery condition and rather than registering low battery the module is just dead until the battery warms up and then comes alive.
-
My front 08 TPS has intermittent function. The battery had died (---) and I replaced it myself but it still got --- I sent it to Fred Harmon for battery replacement. This time the TPS worked, for 3 miles and then went to ---. Ever since it will generally work for about the first 3 miles of a trip and then go to --- for most of the ride but coming on randomly but most often after a hard launch from stopped, but it never stay on for more than 5 or 6 miles. Fred's opinion is that the radio is flaky but I think the accelerometer might be the issue. I intend to research on how these accelerometers work but have been to busy.
At any rate I am not really concerned about it since I bought an 09 C14 for long rides and only use the 08 for trips to the Beverage Store and the Gym. Also, in 491,000 miles of riding I have never had a front tire go flat. Except that time I put a big dent in the wheel, in which case the TPS was of little help.
-
Two of my three most recent flat tires were both on the front. To even things out, the rear had two punctures, side by side. Looked like a snake bite. Ive got nuthin re: the TPS delay.
-
Back to the delay... The KIPASS ECU is where the sensors transmit their info. That's the big box next to the rear master cylinder with the strap over it. Pull the seat and look for anything out of the ordinary. Other than that, I got nothin. The system does NOT use Bluetooth technology as far as I'm aware. It uses RF. No antenna that I'm aware of.
-
There is an antenna but it's contained inside the KiPass ECU. In the photo the silver "L" to the upper RH corner is it:
https://goo.gl/photos/hBLoKZSGEMmgK4vXA (https://goo.gl/photos/hBLoKZSGEMmgK4vXA)
-
Ok, ya got me. I was thinking outside the box.
-
Ok, ya got me. I was thinking outside the box.
:doh:
-
Glad I could be of assistance... :rotflmao:
-
Thanks for all the replies. I would assume then that the TPS module is bad. After watching it for the last week the symptoms remain the same. Long delay (up to 20 mi) then on then off then on and then it stays on till you shut the bike off. Then repeats the same symptoms again. The rear sensor works fine and the display registers within minutes of riding off. I will bring it by the dealership that installed the module and see what they say.
On another note. The valve check was finally done at 95k by a local dealer, with all intake valves still in spec. Only one exhaust valve was out at .005 so they adjusted all the exhaust valves to center. Plugs were changed, however, the OEMs were still ok.
Not suggesting or defending any adjustment schedules just noting the facts as they were documented on my 2011 Concours. I do not wind out the rpms when shifting, in my old age I am a much more conservative rider. Mostly ride between 3k-6k. But this shows me that this bike has an incredible margin of safety built into the engine. Don't abuse it and it will, like the energizer bunny, pretty much keep going and going and ...
-
On another note. The valve check was finally done at 95k by a local dealer, with all intake valves still in spec. Only one exhaust valve was out at .005 so they adjusted all the exhaust valves to center. Plugs were changed, however, the OEMs were still ok.
Cool. You should probably add that info to one of the zillion valve adjustment threads. Perhaps this one: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21328.15 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21328.15) Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a perfect, single, well-rounded, long-running thread.
-
Fixed it up for ya'. ::) ;D
Brian
<snip>
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a perfect, single, well-rounded, long-running thread, anywhere in the Internet, or in any library present or past, on any subject, by any author(s). So you have to read through a bunch of garbage in the hope of finding the occasional gem.... or at least a better grade of garbage here and there.
-
Fixed it up for ya'. ::) ;D
Hey, one can dream, can't one???
-
After 2 months waiting, Kawasaki finally approved a TPS replacement on my front tire. This was accepted under my extended warranty. TPS replaced and now doesn't work at all. Dealer stumped as they were able to register the TPS with the ECM but will not show up on the display. Situation went from bad to worse. So the dealer opened a new inquiry and waiting for instructions to follow up. Now 4 weeks later nothing from Kawasaki. Really disappointed in their response to this warranty claim. Am I the first owner with this problem?
-
Have you added anything to the bike. LED Lights, new GPS, anything that may cause RF interference. Much like the FOB sometimes doesn't work with interference. Or they installed a shield over the motor that is now blocking the path (LOL). Crazy talk but you could take the wheel off and spin it beside the bike, closer to the antenna. See if it works there. Seems like a strange situation.
-
Yes, that is an odd situation.
Funny situation but when the battery is just a tad low but still has lot's o' power left, you will get the 'low battery warning'. When the battery is dead, you will get nothing, which is displayed as "---". The low battery warning is actually generated by the controller chip in the TPS itself so the system actually requires both battery power and a working TPS sender to display the low battery warning but when the battery is dead (which is just really, really low, right?) then you will not get the warning.
But in your situation, if the TPS can be found via the KDS software / hardware but nothing is displayed on the screen, it would lead me to believe the problem is either in your KiPass ECU or in the display itself, not in the TPS sensor. Of course Kawasaki is not going to go for either one of those two very expensive items right away so you are gonna' get the sensor first, as a guess, because it is far cheaper. Please do let us know how this all turns out though.
Brian
After 2 months waiting, Kawasaki finally approved a TPS replacement on my front tire. This was accepted under my extended warranty. TPS replaced and now doesn't work at all. Dealer stumped as they were able to register the TPS with the ECM but will not show up on the display. Situation went from bad to worse. So the dealer opened a new inquiry and waiting for instructions to follow up. Now 4 weeks later nothing from Kawasaki. Really disappointed in their response to this warranty claim. Am I the first owner with this problem?
-
My guess is temperature related. My TPS along with my bones gets a little slower when its cold outside.
-
I have a TPS (front on my 08) that has a good battery but most of the time shows --- and never a Low Batt message. Typically the TPS will give a reading when I first take off from stopped for more than a few minutes but will switch to --- usually within 2 miles. It will often come back on if I due a hard launch from a stoplight and sometimes it will come on randomly but it will never stay on more than 4 or 5 miles. THe fact that it will come on when starting after being stopped for a while or on hard acceleration causes me to speculate that it has something to due with the accelerometer feature that turns the unit on only after the wheel has been turning at a certain speed and off when stopped for a certain time.
-
Well that sounds like an failed TPS acceleration function (centripetal force sensor), or more likely, a bad battery connection or similar. Either way, it points to a bad TPS sensor and nothing on the bike specifically..... IMO of course.
Brian
I have a TPS (front on my 08) that has a good battery but most of the time shows --- and never a Low Batt message. Typically the TPS will give a reading when I first take off from stopped for more than a few minutes but will switch to --- usually within 2 miles. It will often come back on if I due a hard launch from a stoplight and sometimes it will come on randomly but it will never stay on more than 4 or 5 miles. THe fact that it will come on when starting after being stopped for a while or on hard acceleration causes me to speculate that it has something to due with the accelerometer feature that turns the unit on only after the wheel has been turning at a certain speed and off when stopped for a certain time.
-
No upgrades or add ons to my bike except for a 12v lead from the battery for my Gerbing. Service Mgr. said he was able to pair the new TPS sensor to the ECM, so the battery in the sensor must be good. Could it be a faulty replacement TPS or faulty ECM? I did mention to the serv. mgr. that this all started the day I took the bike home from the dealership after doing valves and plugs. Did a wire from the ECM to the display get kinked, broken or shorted? Strange coincidence but of course the serv mgr. disagrees. Getting to the valves requires moving a lot of wiring around and I feel something might have been pulled loose.. Anyway it's up to them to fix it right? Kawasaki can't just ignore the fact that the repair failed and leave it at that, or can they?
With 98K on my bike I'm sure they are not thrilled with this situation. However, I do a lot of touring and every time I get on the bike the first thing I do is check the tire pressure. I had a front tire leak (lag bolt puncture) on a Harley a few years back that wasn't detectable until the steering got really squirrelly and almost caused a crash, so I'm not a happy camper right now. And I just purchased and additional 3 year warranty extension which I may regret.
In addition, the serv. mgr. said the TPS is spring loaded and the springs act against centripetal force. From what Im reading here it is an accelerometer. That lessens my confidence level if he is in deed dead wrong.
-
If you have a decent warranty rep. at your dealer, you should eventually get satisfaction. Unfortunately, you still have to jump through the hoops so to speak and it will take some time and perhaps a couple of false starts.
I do not believe there are any wires anywhere that could have been mangled in any to cause your problem. The wiring between the KiPass ECU and the display electronics is actually a bus that conveys a lot of information so if those wires (CAN bus) were damaged or disconnected, other aspects of the display should be altered / lost also- such as the spedo and tach. readings.
As to the trigger, it is a solid state acceleration detector that turns the sensor on (Easy Boys, not like that!). There are no mechanical devices or springs involved. The acceleration sensor is pointed perpendicular to the axle so it senses centripetal force as the wheel turns. Your dealer may be confusing the activation mechanism with the mounting (Boys!) mechanism, which is indeed spring loaded. The sensor is not mounted (!) rigidly (!!) to the wheel but instead it rides on a shaft (!!!) under spring pressure so it is not beaten to death as the front wheel passes over bumps.
Glad to hear you have near 100k miles on a bike still under warranty! My own bike got to 98k before the time ran out. As far as your dealer and / or Kawasaki not liking it, my thought is basically 'so what'; it is they who offered the deal that we chose to take.... now let them stick to that deal. Plus we are in some pretty rarefied air I think with 100K on these bikes and IMO, I think Kawasaki should be proud to be replacing something <relatively> simple such as your TPS sensor instead of the crankshaft or transmission on a bike so well traveled!
Brian
No upgrades or add ons to my bike except for a 12v lead from the battery for my Gerbing. Service Mgr. said he was able to pair the new TPS sensor to the ECM, so the battery in the sensor must be good. Could it be a faulty replacement TPS or faulty ECM? I did mention to the serv. mgr. that this all started the day I took the bike home from the dealership after doing valves and plugs. Did a wire from the ECM to the display get kinked, broken or shorted? Strange coincidence but of course the serv mgr. disagrees. Getting to the valves requires moving a lot of wiring around and I feel something might have been pulled loose.. Anyway it's up to them to fix it right? Kawasaki can't just ignore the fact that the repair failed and leave it at that, or can they?
With 98K on my bike I'm sure they are not thrilled with this situation. However, I do a lot of touring and every time I get on the bike the first thing I do is check the tire pressure. I had a front tire leak (lag bolt puncture) on a Harley a few years back that wasn't detectable until the steering got really squirrelly and almost caused a crash, so I'm not a happy camper right now. And I just purchased and additional 3 year warranty extension which I may regret.
In addition, the serv. mgr. said the TPS is spring loaded and the springs act against centripetal force. From what Im reading here it is an accelerometer. That lessens my confidence level if he is in deed dead wrong.
-
Thanks for the feedback. I am on my extended warranty as the bike is a 2011. I just purchased my 2nd extension all through the dealer recommended in this forum (great price). I am amazed at the longevity of this bike. I have only had a couple of minor problems: rear shock hydraulic preload leak, front shock seal, TPS sensor and valve cover gasket leak. Not bad for 98K. Of course there were 10 sets of tires $3500 and 20 oil changes $2000 so the mileage does have some drawbacks. But they sure have been fun miles.
-
Service Mgr. said he was able to pair the new TPS sensor to the ECM, so the battery in the sensor must be good. Could it be a faulty replacement TPS or faulty ECM? I did mention to the serv. mgr. that this all started the day I took the bike home from the dealership after doing valves and plugs.
I find it highly unlikely that the ECU is at fault if you are having an issue with only one TPMS module. They both transmit data to the ECU on the same frequency (315 MHz) and if one is being picked up by the ECU the other one should also. But it also seems quite an odd coincidence that this started only after the service but the valve and plug services don't do anything that affects the TPMS or the KiPass ECU that talks to the modules.
But you're saying the Svc. Mgr. was "pairing" the TPMS to the ECU. So that seems to rule out coincidence. You either have a bad TPMS module that the dealer replaced or it was not properly registered to the bike with the KDS3 system.
-
Second TPS replaced by dealer under warranty. Same as before. They were able to pair the TPS with the the ECU but the front TPS still doesn't show up on the dash. After 5 months this warranty item is still not fixed. Not a happy camper. How long until Kawasaki comes up with a plan B?
-
Second TPS replaced by dealer under warranty. Same as before. They were able to pair the TPS with the the ECU but the front TPS still doesn't show up on the dash. After 5 months this warranty item is still not fixed. Not a happy camper. How long until Kawasaki comes up with a plan B?
Somewhere, somehow, I just know there is a "golden b-b" headed for one of my eyes...
But I'll say it anyways....
And these guys are the ones you belived in when you had you valves inspected @ 95k, and all was good, and plugs also???
Man. You are blessed.....
Best of luck.
-
What is your point? Not the same mechanic and they are restricted to Kawasaki's instructions for warranty repair. Nothing against the dealership as their hands are tied. Only thing worse would be if it was on my dime. Please refrain from spouting your snide remarks, they are not the least bit helpful.
-
Service Mgr. said he was able to pair the new TPS sensor to the ECM, so the battery in the sensor must be good.
Not really true. When registering a TPMS module you need only the ID that is printed on the label of the module. The TPMS module will not be active until the bike is under way. The registration is a "static" process unlike the KiPass or Key Immobilizer registration which is "dynamic".
So it's quite possible that:
1) The sensor is defective and is not communicating with the KiPass ECU. Perhaps it has a dead battery after sitting on their shelf too long or just failed on its own. Like any electronic device, it's possible for it to fail at any time.
2) The dealer is using the WRONG ID. The KDS3 doesn't really care what ID you put in, it just takes your word that it's the correct ID. If you enter the wrong ID the only way to know is that the TPMS module will never communicate with the bike and you will never see a pressure from that tire. (Sound familiar? I think this is the problem as human error is far more likely than a module failure.)
3) Somehow the dealer got a non-USA TPMS module. The USA version runs at 315 MHz while other versions are 400 MHz or so. Bottom line is that they use a different frequency for communication and if it's the wrong one the KiPass ECU will never "hear" it. The frequency should be printed on the label but even that might be wrong. When I work on these to replace batteries I check them with a scanner radio that can tune to 315 MHz. You can hear them "chirping" when you connect the battery and for a few minutes after. I've not heard of this happening but I'm sure it's possible.
4) There is an issue with the KiPass ECU where it's not registering data from the 2nd TPMS module. Easy test here. Have the dealer SWAP the IDs in the KDS3 system between the front and rear and see if the problem with no pressure moves. If it does then it must be #1 or #2. If it does not, then I'd suspect a defect in the KiPass ECU. Unlikely, but within the realm of possibility.
I find it quite difficult to believe that the dealer is registering the new TPMS module to the bike but is NOT testing it out before handing the bike back to you. But I suppose that's one way to cut corners. I say keep after them. I know it's a PITA to keep having to go back but I'd insist that they test the TPMS modules on the bike before pronouncing that the thing is fixed.
-
(quote removed by request of OP)
I posted the above link on the COG site last week in an effort to help a guy out. I was asked yesterday by a COG official to remove the link in my post as it violates COG posting rules as pertains to copyright infringement. WTF?
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/auxiliary-fob-issue-can't-program-it-even-with-the-code (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/auxiliary-fob-issue-can't-program-it-even-with-the-code)!/msg591172/#msg591172
Who here thinks that Kawasaki would have an issue with us posting such things?
-
Who here thinks that Kawasaki would have an issue with us posting such things?
Probably. In this case, even though the KDS manual has zero value without having purchased something to go with it (the KDS system) it clearly says on page 5:
"• The contents of this manual must not be copied in part or in full without our permission."
It being posted to a non-Kawasaki-owned site and then links to it being dispersed is most definitely "copying" and it isn't being done with permission. So it might not be morally wrong, but is legally wrong [IMHO].
The factory service manual, on the other hand, has lots of value on its own... it it is both morally and legally wrong [IMHO].
-
A link is not copyright infringement.
-
A link is not copyright infringement.
IANAL but I do know that courts in the United States have held otherwise. This has become known as "contributory copyright infringement":
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/04-480.ZO.html (https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/04-480.ZO.html)
-
Thought police? If I verbally give you a link am I also in violation?
-
Thought police? If I verbally give you a link am I also in violation?
As I said, IANAL. Read the decision for yourself. I'm just stating what it is.
-
IANAL either so that legalese is greek to me. I/we are not a file sharing site as they speak of in the paper. Are you not in violation by referring me to the legal web site as you presume me to be by referring someone to a different web site? This pretty much renders the internet useless if that's the case.
-
IANAL either so that legalese is greek to me. I/we are not a file sharing site as they speak of in the paper. Are you not in violation by referring me to the legal web site as you presume me to be by referring someone to a different web site? This pretty much renders the internet useless if that's the case.
In this case, no it does not. The terms of use on the LII site permit this. From:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/lii/terms/documentation (https://www.law.cornell.edu/lii/terms/documentation)
Distribution of these pages on the Internet does not constitute consent to any use of this material for commercial redistribution either via the Internet or using some other form of hypertext distribution. Links to the collection or individual pages in it are welcome.
I have no "skin" in this game either but the operators of the ZGGTR.ORG site do.
-
I'll ping Rick and/or Jim and see if we can get a definitive answer.
-
Hysterical!
Hopefully you do see what your mistake was and where exactly you made it.... hint: it had / has nothing to do with any laws whatsoever.
Let us hope you learned your lesson. :rotflmao:
At first I did not understand how this thread de- railed so badly because it is not about KiPass. But then upon further reflection, the TPS system on a C-14 IS PART of the overall KiPass system so I guess there is enough of a link to cause such a breakdown.
Back ONTOPIC: If the bike shows data sometimes but they displays '---' during the same ride, it is most likely to be a bad TPS sensor, with a further guess that it is some type of power interruption w/in the sensor such as a loose battery connection. Once a TPS is activated, it continues to send a signal for some amount of time around three minutes, which is ample time for the G-force sensor in the sensor to re- activate the sensor and keep it powered up continuously. In fact, this is the first time I have heard of a TPS cutting in and out. Now, that said, of course it <could> be the receiver / processor but that is highly unlikely because the OP is only having trouble with one sensor; all parts of the TPS system on the bike are shared by both the front and rear sensors, so it is doubtful that any fault on the bike- side of the system would only affect one sensor's reading.
I believe the front sensor is at fault. The easiest test I can think of would be to swap the front and rear sensors and see if the problem on the bike's display migrates to the other end (yeah, there should be an Easy Boys! in there but I am not exactly sure where to put it (Boys!)). A little labor intensive to swap the sensors but it can be done with the tires and wheels still on the bike in less than an hour.
Brian
I posted the above link on the COG site last week in an effort to help a guy out. I was asked yesterday by a COG official to remove the link in my post as it violates COG posting rules as pertains to copyright infringement. WTF?
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/auxiliary-fob-issue-can't-program-it-even-with-the-code (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/auxiliary-fob-issue-can't-program-it-even-with-the-code)!/msg591172/#msg591172
Who here thinks that Kawasaki would have an issue with us posting such things?
-
snip...
Hysterical!
Hopefully you do see what your mistake was and where exactly you made it.... hint: it had / has nothing to do with any laws whatsoever.
Let us hope you learned your lesson. :rotflmao:
At first I did not understand how this thread de- railed so badly because it is not about KiPass. But then upon further reflection, the TPS system on a C-14 IS PART of the overall KiPass system so I guess there is enough of a link to cause such a breakdown.
Brian
I do and I did and I have. ;)
-
Back ONTOPIC: If the bike shows data sometimes but they displays '---' during the same ride, it is most likely to be a bad TPS sensor, with a further guess that it is some type of power interruption w/in the sensor such as a loose battery connection. Once a TPS is activated, it continues to send a signal for some amount of time around three minutes, which is ample time for the G-force sensor in the sensor to re- activate the sensor and keep it powered up continuously. In fact, this is the first time I have heard of a TPS cutting in and out. Now, that said, of course it <could> be the receiver / processor but that is highly unlikely because the OP is only having trouble with one sensor; all parts of the TPS system on the bike are shared by both the front and rear sensors, so it is doubtful that any fault on the bike- side of the system would only affect one sensor's reading.
I didn't see where the new OP (as this thread was already hijacked) said that the reading was intermittent. He said that after the dealer replaced the module and registered it, there is still no reading from the sensor. So I'll stick with what I said before as to the possible causes but I'm still leaning toward the "human error" probability with the dealer registering the wrong ID in KDS3 and the sensor is not detected.
-
My front sensor is consistently intermittent since the battery was replaced last year. The nice thing I'd no low batt warnings.
-
My front sensor is consistently intermittent since the battery was replaced last year. The nice thing I'd no low batt warnings.
In that case it's quite possible the battery wasn't soldered in properly. The connections are originally covered with some conformal coating that can make it tricky to solder a new battery in if that isn't cleaned off well.
-
I have included the first post in this thread. You are correct in that he did not say the TPS reading(s) were intermittent but in fact were slow to show for the front sensor. I believe I may have been confusing the OP's post with Lather's posts....
So, if the TPS reads at all, for any length of time, I do not believe it could be a programming problem. If one TPS is slow to read initially, again I would blame the sensor and not the system because only one sensor is showing that behavior (front). Again though, the recommendation to swap the sensors would still prove where in the system the problem is located (the sensor or any part of the bike's electronics). Or just replacing the front sensor if the dealer and Kawasaki will do that.... and they probably will though they may resist a bit.
Now Lather has a different problem where his tire pressure disappears after it is engaged yet while he is still riding. Again, I believe that is a problem with the sensor itself and not any part of the bike for the same reason- only one sensor is showing the problem. And swapping sensors would again prove the source of the problem.
By the way: now that these bikes have been around for quite a while, I would think used, original- style TPS's would be available from the usual salvage sources at reasonable prices. Certainly I would not pay too much for a used TPS sensor of unknown quality, and it would take KDS hardware / software to program the bike to recognize a different sensor, but salvaged sensors might be a path to get a working TPS system on the bike again for a reasonable price.
There are also after- market, real- time tire pressuring systems for well under $100 (for four (4) wheels no less) that may also be a viable 'fix'. I have no experience with them and do not know if they work well or not but they certainly are affordable and easy enough to install. ???
Brian
Iv had both TPS replaced under warranty on my 2011. I recently had valves and plugs done and ever since my front TPS delays showing up on the digital display sometimes for over 10 minutes. Both tire pressure readings should display rather quickly. The display does not show the battery low indicator just --. I would assume that the sensor uses bluetooth to transfer data and I wonder if there is a small antenna under the hood that might have gotten kinked or broken. Once the reading comes up on the digital display it will stay until the bike is shut off. Then it will take another 10 minutes to reappear. Any ideas on why this is occurring?
I didn't see where the new OP (as this thread was already hijacked) said that the reading was intermittent. He said that after the dealer replaced the module and registered it, there is still no reading from the sensor. So I'll stick with what I said before as to the possible causes but I'm still leaning toward the "human error" probability with the dealer registering the wrong ID in KDS3 and the sensor is not detected.
-
After 2 months waiting, Kawasaki finally approved a TPS replacement on my front tire. This was accepted under my extended warranty. TPS replaced and now doesn't work at all. Dealer stumped as they were able to register the TPS with the ECM but will not show up on the display. Situation went from bad to worse. So the dealer opened a new inquiry and waiting for instructions to follow up. Now 4 weeks later nothing from Kawasaki. Really disappointed in their response to this warranty claim. Am I the first owner with this problem?
I guess this was the one I was going on. But I see now that it initially worked intermittently and now is not working at all. I agree, it's not a registration problem but rather a defective sensor. Lather's issue was a battery replacement but in this case the dealer replaced it with, PRESUMABLY, a factory new module. Perhaps not...
But in any case it's the dealer's responsibility to make this right whether it was a warranty replacement or a regular service replacement.
-
There are also after- market, real- time tire pressuring systems for well under $100 (for four (4) wheels no less) that may also be a viable 'fix'. I have no experience with them and do not know if they work well or not but they certainly are affordable and easy enough to install. ???
It is certainly a lower-cost alternative for someone whose sensors are not under warranty and still wants to have a TPS system and doesn't care that he/she would have to mount [and possibly wire up if not battery operated] a separate receiver/display unit somewhere. I know it would irritate me to not have it integrated to the rest of the existing system. But it would be the lesser of two evils (if I one have the money, the choice would be no TPS or a third-party system).
The "holy grail" would be a third party transmitter that had externally chargeable or replaceable batteries and worked with the Concours' receiver/computer display. But I don't think that is going to happen.
-
I guess this was the one I was going on. But I see now that it initially worked intermittently and now is not working at all. I agree, it's not a registration problem but rather a defective sensor.
I agree, it sounds like it is just defective. Either intermittent or not transmitting at the correct power level so it can be "seen" all the time.
Lather's issue was a battery replacement but in this case the dealer replaced it with, PRESUMABLY, a factory new module. Perhaps not...
I don't think a dealer would ever attempt to replace the batteries in any TPS. Their only action would be to replace the sensor with whatever Kawasaki gives/sells them. At this point, it is just the new model.
But in any case it's the dealer's responsibility to make this right whether it was a warranty replacement or a regular service replacement.
Yep. It is a pitty it is just so incredibly labor intensive every time.
-
In that case it's quite possible the battery wasn't soldered in properly. The connections are originally covered with some conformal coating that can make it tricky to solder a new battery in if that isn't cleaned off well.
Possible sure but I doubt it. I have done 5 now successfully, using tabbed batts with the narrow ends fed through the holes, easy boys! When this one failed I sent it to Fred. Same result.
-
Possible sure but I doubt it. I have done 5 now successfully, using tabbed batts with the narrow ends fed through the holes, easy boys! When this one failed I sent it to Fred. Same result.
In that case there is probably a fault in the unit itself. A bad solder joint on the PCB or a cracked trace on the board. It happens...
-
In that case there is probably a fault in the unit itself. A bad solder joint on the PCB or a cracked trace on the board. It happens...
I have an idea- we can pot all the electronics in epoxy and then it will keep things from failing!!!! [running and hiding now while people throw shoes at me....]
-
You bring up a point for discussion so I won't throw a shoe. Are the potted units better? Are they giving the low batt warning in cold weather?
-
You bring up a point for discussion so I won't throw a shoe. Are the potted units better? Are they giving the low batt warning in cold weather?
I don't think any of us know the exact reasons the new model is potted. But there are a number of possibilities on which I would speculate, these being the most likely:
1) To prevent copying
2) To prevent people from replacing the batteries
3) To prevent damage from vibration
4) To prevent damage from humidity/liquid infiltration
5) To help prevent thermal expansion damage (questionable)
The first two are convenient side-effects (from the manufacturer's point of view) of the potting. Read as much cynicism in it as you like :) Potting electronics that are used in motor vehicle applications is certainly not uncommon. By "better" I assume you mean more reliable or longer lasting. So yes, in some ways being potted is better. Certainly not for people who want to replace the batteries, though. And the units are not just potted but a different design.... so they could be better or worse in other ways that we just don't know. We certainly don't have enough experience yet to know if they actually last any longer or are more reliable.
As for your last question- the reason the sensors will eventually start giving a low battery warning in cold weather is just the nature of most batteries, including lithium cells. Colder temp = less chemical reaction = lower voltage/power. So I don't think being potted will change that behavior. Having a larger battery will help, so would being more efficient (if it has better electronics that require less power) but, eventually, it will probably behave the same as the unpotted version when the battery gets weak.
-
As you noted, potting is common in these types of applications. I think they switched manufacturers from the original style to these newer ones which are made by Schrader, a company that makes a lot of these for automotive applications also. The Kawasaki system is proprietary in that it has an ID code. Automotive systems don't usually do this, they use wheel-located antennas to pick up each wheel so there is no coding involved. Why? Well one reason is that you rotate tires on a car and that would be a major PITA if you had to go to the dealer and get your TPMS modules re-programmed. The ID system used by Kawasaki lets them use only a single antenna that is located in the KiPass ECU. So it figures out front from rear using the ID that the module broadcasts.
The potting doesn't really prevent copying. It's fairly easy to hack it out and if you really wanted to copy, all you'd need to do is source the same ICs that Schrader uses, figure out the protocol, and implement it. But it would be a lot of work for very little potential reward. Say it cost you $50K (a very LOW estimate) to reverse engineer the system and they cost say $50 each to build. How many would you have to sell to break even? Who would you sell them to? Dealers? Not likely, they don't care what they cost! So it's just the unfortunate few of us who might want to buy a replacement.
I think the potting is mainly for physical protection of the assembly. While inconvenient from a battery replacement viewpoint, these newer one are a lot sturdier than the older ones which are easily trashed a careless tire changer.
-
Yes, I believe they are but not because they are potted; in fact, it is the other way around: the new units are better and also happen to be potted, exactly like the millions and millions sensors already in use in autos.
Long ago and far away, the internal (Easy Boys!) TPS was invented and marketed by the gazillion. One of the main, if not the main manufacturer in the world, was and is Schrader (just like the valve in a tire stem). Along came Kawasaki and decided to integrate TPS into the new- fangled version of the Concours but for some strange reason, went to a relatively unknown company in France to produce them. Schrader TPS sensors have always been potted because that is how it should be done. The French versions (LDL I believe) were never potted because.... well, I do not know why. Anyway, after Kawasaki suffered a phenomenal (in the world of mass production, 1% is phenomenal) number of TPS sensor failures, they looked around to see if anyone else was having any success with then and lo and behold, ALL the auto companies were having success, just not with LDL brand sensors. So Kawasaki 'jumped ship' and went to Schrader. But of course instead of just buying the regular sensor, they instead opted for the proprietary communication version which only they sell, so what should be a $20 sensor costs more than ten times that. The newer sensors do not use the same controller wafer (chip) that the LDL version did and hence do not have the low battery problem that the LDL's did (because of the controller they in turn bought from an electronic component manufacturer).
So here we are, stuck with bikes that use a proprietary comm. system, and have to either keep the old sensors working or buy new ones at a hugely inflated cost. That is why I suggest a third option which is an entire after market system altogether; it would not be integrated into the C-14's dash but it DOES work, and four sensors plus the controller / readout is something like $70, or one- third or one- quarter the cost of ONE C-14 TPS sensor.
Or we could all buy BMW's and have much, much bigger, more expensive and more serious things to complain about.
Brian
You bring up a point for discussion so I won't throw a shoe. Are the potted units better? Are they giving the low batt warning in cold weather?
-
Potting is not only common but is the norm on things like automotive service electronic modules. Potting makes the unit weatherproof, eliminates vibration damage of components (a leading cause of electronic module failure by the way), and stops things like arcing.
Again, the norm is to pot electronic packages; the C-14 had a very unusual TPS sensor on the early models. And potted TPS sensors were the norm in the vehicular world long before the C-14 was introduced.
Brian
I don't think any of us know the exact reasons the new model is potted. But there are a number of possibilities on which I would speculate, these being the most likely:
<snip>
-
Or we could all buy BMW's and have much, much bigger, more expensive and more serious things to complain about.
Hey, if you go to the local BMW dealer here they have an espresso bar in the service lounge. So you can sip while sitting in an overstuffed chair waiting for ???
-
Hey, if you go to the local BMW dealer here they have an espresso bar in the service lounge. So you can sip while sitting in an overstuffed chair waiting for ???
Waiting for your credit card to overdraw....
We moan (me included) about how crazy expensive these TP sensors are on the Concours, but looking at BMW parts (and "reliability") can really put it into perspective :)
-
I have a Garmin Zumo 390 LM GPS. For $60 I can buy Garmin TPS units that replace the valve cap on any shrader valve stem and displays on the GPS screen. I have not gotten around to looking into the details but will do soon for use on my 3 non Concours 14 bikes. Don't know if that is $60 for two or just one or if it warns you when pressure is low or you have to press some buttons to check or if give a low battery warning when it's cold ;)
-
Finished it up for you....
Brian
Hey, if you go to the local BMW dealer here they have an espresso bar in the service lounge. So you can sip while sitting in an overstuffed chair waiting for the second new final drive to be put in your bike.... at your expense.
-
I have always thought that would be an ideal situation other than 1) when you update the Garmin, the TPS's may or may not work with future models and 2) When the Garmin fails, and it seems that a LOT of them do, you can replace it for a fixed sum that is sort of reasonble, until they run out of new units. Then the unit is no longer supported. I have a Zumo 550 I love but Garmin no longer has any replacements (they were $150) and therefore when my current one dies, there will be no more. That is my hesitation to 'get into bed' with yet another proprietary system (Garmin) attached to a long- dollar 'master' (the GPS itself).
The stand- alone units are around $70 and both mount and are powered by a cigarette lighter receptacle, which would actually work pretty well on a C-14 I think. And when the whole system is obsolete, it is not a tremendous amount of money invested in the first place.
Brian
I have a Garmin Zumo 390 LM GPS. For $60 I can buy Garmin TPS units that replace the valve cap on any shrader valve stem and displays on the GPS screen. I have not gotten around to looking into the details but will do soon for use on my 3 non Concours 14 bikes. Don't know if that is $60 for two or just one or if it warns you when pressure is low or you have to press some buttons to check or if give a low battery warning when it's cold ;)
-
I have had good results getting both my Zumo and a Nuvi 550 repaired by this outfit https://satnavrepairservice.com/ About $70 plus shipping both times. By the way I have had about 10 Garmins over the years and none have failed on their own. I shorted the power chip in the Nuvi trying to make my own hardwired power cable and I cracked the glass screen on my Zumo when I forgot it was in my pocket and jammed a set of keys in there.The rest of them just became semi obsolete because they could not load the updated maps available.
-
As for my intermittent front TPS I have spent a lot of time thinking about this failure since it is apparently rare.
Both of my OEM TPS batteries lasted longer than the reported expectancy of 5 years. From October 07 to April 13 for the rear and December 13 for the front. It should be mentioned that in October 11 I hit a chunk of concrete and dented my front wheel and replaced it with a wheel and tire assembly from ZX14. I did not install the TPS until the next front tire change. So the TPS unit did suffer a jolt hard enough to dent an aluminum wheel and could have sustained some damage. I do not recall any immediate problems when I first installed the tps other than the usual low battery warnings in cold weather.
So in December 2013 the front TPS went to --- full time and I successfully replaced the battery. Maybe. With the next cold weather the unusual behavior began. Instead of the typical initial warning on starting a ride that went away after a short "warmup" period the front TPS would come on normally but after several miles would give the low battery warning and stay on for several miles. This got worse over the next 18 moths to the point the low battery warning would stay on for the rest of the ride. In April 16 I replaced the battery again but the result was ---. Soon after I sent it to Fred but the result was still mostly --- with only intermittent function.
The TPS will usually come on normally after the bike has been parked for a few minutes but will usually go to --- within 3 miles. It seems that it will stay on longer in cold weather but I have not ridden the 08 much in cold weather since I got the 09. Several times the TPS has come on when I did a dragstrip type launch at a stop light. (which I do whenever the road is clear ;D )
By the way, Fred refunded my money.
-
I'll ping Rick and/or Jim and see if we can get a definitive answer.
I'm thinking what Rick would think, I think. But as far as I'm concerned continue on...unless we can't. Hopefully that answers that question or not. And as I don't see anything to the contrary on this statement I would continue on continuing.
-
What you suspect makes sense to me. Not that that means anything, just that I agree with your thinking. It sounds like you have some type of power interruption w/in the sensor itself and that very hard shock may well have caused it; you may have a cracked PCB board but even more likely, a component that has a lead that was jarred loose and was kinda', sorta' making contact.... now and then.
Brian
As for my intermittent front TPS I have spent a lot of time thinking about this failure since it is apparently rare.
Both of my OEM TPS batteries lasted longer than the reported expectancy of 5 years. From October 07 to April 13 for the rear and December 13 for the front. It should be mentioned that in October 11 I hit a chunk of concrete and dented my front wheel and replaced it with a wheel and tire assembly from ZX14. I did not install the TPS until the next front tire change. So the TPS unit did suffer a jolt hard enough to dent an aluminum wheel and could have sustained some damage. I do not recall any immediate problems when I first installed the tps other than the usual low battery warnings in cold weather.
So in December 2013 the front TPS went to --- full time and I successfully replaced the battery. Maybe. With the next cold weather the unusual behavior began. Instead of the typical initial warning on starting a ride that went away after a short "warmup" period the front TPS would come on normally but after several miles would give the low battery warning and stay on for several miles. This got worse over the next 18 moths to the point the low battery warning would stay on for the rest of the ride. In April 16 I replaced the battery again but the result was ---. Soon after I sent it to Fred but the result was still mostly --- with only intermittent function.
The TPS will usually come on normally after the bike has been parked for a few minutes but will usually go to --- within 3 miles. It seems that it will stay on longer in cold weather but I have not ridden the 08 much in cold weather since I got the 09. Several times the TPS has come on when I did a dragstrip type launch at a stop light. (which I do whenever the road is clear ;D )
By the way, Fred refunded my money.
-
As for my intermittent front TPS I have spent a lot of time thinking about this failure since it is apparently rare.
Both of my OEM TPS batteries lasted longer than the reported expectancy of 5 years.
Mine were only 3 years old when they started saying "Low battery" in the cold and I had them replaced under warranty. Perhaps they would have semi-worked for another year or even longer with the intermittent message, but I considered that a failure.
-
Mine were only 3 years old when they started saying "Low battery" in the cold and I had them replaced under warranty. Perhaps they would have semi-worked for another year or even longer with the intermittent message, but I considered that a failure.
Same here. The ones in my 2012 started flashing low late in the season in 2015. By early last year they were gone. But chances are they were made in 2010 and installed in the bike in 2011 when it was made. So that's almost 6 years. Hoping to get another 6 years out of the new batteries I put in.
-
Same here. The ones in my 2012 started flashing low late in the season in 2015. By early last year they were gone. But chances are they were made in 2010 and installed in the bike in 2011 when it was made. So that's almost 6 years. Hoping to get another 6 years out of the new batteries I put in.
I will keep using my G37 as a measuring stick (and my only non-Concours experience with TPS). Perhaps my 2009 G37 sensors were made in 2008. So that is now 9 years with no problems...
Of course now that I keep saying that....
-
Wow it's been a few weeks since I last check my post. There have been numerous responses to my TPS problem. Thank you all for your interest. You will NOT believe the ending of this story. After an additional 2 weeks waiting for another response from Kawi regarding the non functioning second TPS replacement, I decided to have a sit down with the general manager. I finally ran out of patience with both Kawi and the dealership's handling of this problem. A non functioning TPS should not take 6 MONTHS to figure out.
I guess she lit a candle under the service mgr. butt because the very next day he called to apologize profusely and said they have the fix and to bring the bike back that morning. It took about 15 minutes and I was on my way with both TPS functioning perfectly. What was the problem you ask? THEY WERE USING THE WRONG PRODUCT CODE TO REGISTER THE NEW TPS. Yes hard to believe but exactly the reason I do as much work on my bike that I can and do NOT trust dealership mechanics, especially to do deep engine work. However this was covered under warranty so I let the dealership handle it.
In addition, I requested that the dealership remount a new tire after the first TPS replacement. I also requested 45lbs tire pressure, a new dust seal, and spacer and wheel cleaning. I always replace the dust seals, clean the spacers and wheel and use a very accurate static wheel balancer when replacing a tire. Normally I only bring in the wheel, not the bike, for a tire change. So not only was the dust seal not replaced but the tire pressure was at 35lbs, the spacer caked with grime, the balance off by 1/2 oz and the brake calipers left needing cleaning. FUBAR. A cautionary tail for those of you forced to use a local dealership for repairs and maintenance.
JWH20 got it right on 2) in his response on pg 3, unfortunately I missed it in time to do any good. Just to clarify: My first front tire TPS was replaced under warranty and worked fine for about a year then began to act erratically: on then off or delayed functioning. I brought it to a different dealership to fix under warranty. Replacement did not work at al. Second replacement did not work until the correct code was used 6 months later. In addition, the dealership never said they fixed the problem. They took it for a test ride each time and admitted they haven't found the cure. They were at least honest about their deficiencies. Thanks all again for responding