Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Poseidon on January 16, 2018, 06:54:52 PM
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I've done several google searches, but I can't seem to be able to find the answer. Why would Kawasaki use Mitsubishi parts on their motorcycles? There doesn't seem to be a connection between the two companies that I can find. It isn't like Kawasaki couldn't manufacture and produce its own parts. As far as I know, other Japanese motorcycle companies don't outsource major engine parts like Kawasaki does. To me, it would be about like Harley Davidson using heads manufactured by Ford on thier bikes. First, why would HD want to? Second, how would it be profitable for Ford to do it? (You can substitute Kawasaki and Mitsubishi into the same questions) with such small production numbers of C14's being made, it doesn't seem like it would be worth the tooling for another company to make the parts.
I understand outsourcing components like sensors, ECU's and other electronics, fuel pumps, injectors, throttle bodies, etc. lots of companies do that. Most of those parts have applications in many vehicles. It make sense to out source them vs producing your own one off units for such a small production run. But not major engine parts like the variable valve system. I doubt the valve system in the C14 is being used in other vehicles, motors.
Anyone have any insight?
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Not sure I am following your point here. ??
As you say, many companies 'farm out' specialty items of their product. The relationship between Mitsubishi and Kawasaki is exactly that; Mitsubishi has expended the time and money to develop and manufacture a security system called 'MISTY', and Kawasaki buys it and installs it on C-14' as part, the major part, of KiPass. Exactly as they used to use Mukini (sp?) carburetors, as Honda used Kehlin (sp?) carburetors on each of their motorcycles respectively. And exactly as it is almost certain that Kawasaki uses Denso (or another major Japanese fuel injector manufacturer) fuel injectors on their bikes.
The motorcycle industry is a very small portion of the entire vehicular market worldwide, as it is in Japan. Surely it makes sense for a motorcycle manufacturer to 'piggy back' on well developed and inexpensive (per unit, after R&D, tooling, etc.) parts from the automotive industry.
So again, I am just not understanding your point or your question. ??
Brian
I've done several google searches, but I can't seem to be able to find the answer. Why would Kawasaki use Mitsubishi parts on their motorcycles? There doesn't seem to be a connection between the two companies that I can find. It isn't like Kawasaki couldn't manufacture and produce its own parts. As far as I know, other Japanese motorcycle companies don't outsource major engine parts like Kawasaki does. To me, it would be about like Harley Davidson using heads manufactured by Ford on thier bikes. First, why would HD want to? Second, how would it be profitable for Ford to do it? (You can substitute Kawasaki and Mitsubishi into the same questions) with such small production numbers of C14's being made, it doesn't seem like it would be worth the tooling for another company to make the parts.
I understand outsourcing components like sensors, ECU's and other electronics, fuel pumps, injectors, throttle bodies, etc. lots of companies do that. Most of those parts have applications in many vehicles. It make sense to out source them vs producing your own one off units for such a small production run. But not major engine parts like the variable valve system. I doubt the valve system in the C14 is being used in other vehicles, motors.
Anyone have any insight?
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I think you misunderstood my (long winded) question. I understand the smaller parts that have multiple applications like electronics, carbarators, throttle bodies, etc. that make sense. What I don't understand is why Kawasaki would outsource the variable valve timing of the motor to Mitsubishi. Also, why Mitsubishi would want to take on thatjob for a one off system as it is only used in the Concours 14 as far as I have been able to tell from the reading I've done.
I found this info on the VVT.
Variable Valve Timing
The big difference between the two engines was the Concours’ Variable Valve Timing system, or VVT. With 45 fewer ponies than its sibling, the ZG’s engine might be expected to lose some of the ZX’s thrilling midrange urge as well, but in fact it didn't, thanks to Kawasaki’s VVT, and that was a really neat thing. Here’'s how that came about. From the standpoint of power, the most important single event in any four-stroke engine is the intake valve’'s closing point. This is because the air column racing down the intake tract into the cylinder has mass, and therefore weight, inertia, and most importantly, momentum.
Pressurized engine oil is fed to a ECU-triggered shuttle (oil contol valve, or OCD) valve, which pushes, though a hydraulic drum, the intake cam forward, and though channels, back again. The OCD has its own ECU fault code.
Momentum’'s energy is spent as the air column travels down the manifold, slowing as it nears the open intake valve. Engine designers time the intake valve’s closing to coincide with the air’ column's eventual slowing and stopping, thus taking maximum advantage of the power potential. The problem is, with changes in rpm come other changes that make the ideal intake valve closing point vary. Kawasaki’s VVT moves the intake valve’s closing point forward and backward to ride or “surf” this ever-changing best closing time, thereby maximizing cylinder filling efficiency at a wider range of rpm. Though in recognizable use in the car world, it's the first time this technology has been implemented in a motorcycle.
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Ah, I gotcha' now.
The VVT system on the C-14 is not a one- off, but actually Mitsubishi's VVT system that was already developed and simply purchased and applied to the C-14. Mitsubishi has been in the VVT 'business' since before 1992 while the C-14 was not introduced until 2007. So again, it is exactly the same situation as KiPass being a step- child of MISTY (Kawasaki and Mitsubishi, respectively): Mitsubishi has developed the technology, recovered the costs of that development and is enjoying the benefits by their primary business (one of them at least) which is selling autos. Kawasaki approaches Mitsubishi and offers to buy that technology package (MISTY, or MIVEC for variable valve timing) on a per- unit basis, which is profitable for Mitsubishi (they already recouped their expenditures) and yet is far less expensive and time consuming than developing their own systems. So Kawasaki did not approach Mitsubishi to develop a system for them to buy and use, they merely purchased a system right 'off the shelf' that Mitsubishi already developed and has a proven track record. It is a win- win- win, for Kawasaki, Mitsubishi and us, the end users.
And neither system, MISTY or MIVEC was used in its entirety but the core, underlying technology was used for Kawasaki to develop their own 'package' for their specific use and needs.
Brian
I think you misunderstood my (long winded) question. I understand the smaller parts that have multiple applications like electronics, carbarators, throttle bodies, etc. that make sense. What I don't understand is why Kawasaki would outsource the variable valve timing of the motor to Mitsubishi. Also, why Mitsubishi would want to take on thatjob for a one off system as it is only used in the Concours 14 as far as I have been able to tell from the reading I've done.
<snip>
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And neither system, MISTY or MIVEC was used in its entirety but the core, underlying technology was used for Kawasaki to develop their own 'package' for their specific use and needs.
Plus, as far as I am aware, neither feature has ever appeared in ANY other Kawasaki motorcycle. The C14 contained more technology than any other Kawasaki ever had (and did for many years until the supercharger entered the stage). Kawasaki wanted to be the king of sport touring, and do to that, it required some specific innovations that would have been far too expensive for them to develop themselves from scratch. It only made sense to pick some technologies that were already developed by other companies and fairly "off the shelf" that could be quickly and economically adopted to augment the excellent systems they already had. It didn't hurt that Also, Mitsubishi doesn't make motorcycles, they had nothing to lose and everything to gain :)
Here is Mitsubishi's official statement:
"Our Role in the Motorcycle Industry
The motorcycle industry expanded production overseas even before the automotive industry. At Mitsubishi Corporation Technos, we offer our customers optimal proposals and support for facility investment and production activities in Japan, while also directing our services to support customer needs overseas. In addition to establishing worldwide business locations to where our customers have advanced, we collaborate with local manufacturers, manufacturers in neighboring countries and in Japan to help our customers achieve good balance between quality improvement and cost reduction in their overseas production sites and to provide fine-tuned services wherever our customers are located."
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and?????
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And as an aside the liquid cooled engine used in the Harley Davidson V-rod was designed by Porsche.
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The Porsche / HD collaboration kind of made sense. Name recognition for both companies and the performance aspect from the Porsche name. I'm sure several motorcycle manufactures would jump at the chance to put a motor designed by Ferrari or Lamborghini in one of their bikes.
Thanks to everyone that replied. The VVT from Mitsubishi makes more sense now. At first glance it seemed odd.
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The Porche/HD collaboration actually started originally in the mid-70's with the Nova V-4 project.
Ford and Toyota each have plenty of engineering prowess, yet both have used a Yamaha engine in a car.
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and?????
???
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The Porche/HD collaboration actually started originally in the mid-70's with the Nova V-4 project.
Ford and Toyota each have plenty of engineering prowess, yet both have used a Yamaha engine in a car.
I had no idea. Just did some reading. Looks like Yamaha has an actual automotive division where they manufacturer car engines and suspensions. They have been making them since the 1960's. I also saw where Toyota owns 5% of Yahama, so there is some financial incentive there too.
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I think it may apply to who actually developed this actual mechanism used, and utilized it, more inline with Kaw not wanting to invest in paying "usage" rights on a patent, vs. actually buying the manufactured part, and leaving the oneness of responsibility of it's function on the actual manufacturer.... (not necessarily a US patent, but an International one, per application)
(https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US5724929-3.png)
I think Mitsu did a lot of the spending for it's development... so it makes sense, and they did it a full 10 years+ prior to the C14...
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I dunno, looks to me like a part from an encabulator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag)
Or a flux capacitor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjCRUvX2D0E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjCRUvX2D0E)
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I dunno, looks to me like a part from an encabulator Or a flux capacitor
I thought it was a cush drive.
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It's explaned with the idea of Keiretsu. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiretsu
Didn't you guys see the movie Murder at 1600? (Sean Connery and Wesley Snipes?) lol
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Also, Mitsubishi doesn't make motorcycles, they had nothing to lose and everything to gain :)
They sure did! The scooter in my avatar photo is a 1949 Mitsubishi Silver Pigeon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Silver_Pigeon).
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In fact Mitsubishi is one of the largest suppliers or automotive and motorcycle electronics. The company is a leader in engine management systems as well as many of the electronic components used in these systems. Why wouldn't Kawasaki use them? There are others like Bosch, Delphi, and Denso but for whatever reason the folks at Kawasaki liked what Mitsubishi had to offer them.
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Mitsubishi has a patented on engine counter balancers ( remember the 2.6 4 bangers that Chrysler used to use in the k cars?) and other companies have licensed. I think even Porsche used it, how else can you make a 3 liter four banger not vibrate like a school bus motor?
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Yes, yes, these are the people that made the famous v6 for Chrysler that was a piece of sh*t. I know, because my daughter had a car with one of those engines. Japanese engineering indeed. :pukeface:
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Nope, that v6 was pure chrysler. Th k cars came with a Chrysler 2.2 , spend a little more and you got a mits 2.6 and it was a good motor. The Dodge Conquest use a version of the motor ( I think turboed) that was pretty good and did well in racing.
I had a dodge 400 k car and the only good thing about that car was the mits 2.6.
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Nope, it was Mitsubishi...
https://www.allpar.com/mopar/3.html (https://www.allpar.com/mopar/3.html)
Chrysler did have their own V6, not sure when it came out though. It was a better engine. The Mitsubishi had issues with oil leaking.
https://www.allpar.com/fix/3fix.html (https://www.allpar.com/fix/3fix.html)
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Yes, yes, these are the people that made the famous v6 for Chrysler that was a piece of sh*t. I know, because my daughter had a car with one of those engines. Japanese engineering indeed. :pukeface:
Actually, that engine was NOT a piece of sh*t, I owned a van with one that I built, and built a couple for customers. The only issue they had was dropping the valve guides when the engines got warm. The early FJR's had the same issue. There was a replacement guide available that would prevent that from happening. Ft the heads with the upgraded guides and those engines would rock for a long time. Also, if I remember my automotive history, Mitsubishi developed the first dual balancer system for inline 4's back in the 1920's. Steve
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Glad you liked them. I sure didn't. Daughter had a Galant. That was a POS as well. I wouldn't touch anything branded Mitsubishi with a 10ft pole.
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Glad you liked them. I sure didn't. Daughter had a Galant. That was a POS as well. I wouldn't touch anything branded Mitsubishi with a 10ft pole.
I had a 2012 Galant as a work car. It definitely wouldn't be my first choice for a personal car, but I got 150,000 trouble free miles out of it before I got the 2016 Accord Touring I'm driving for a work car now. The Accord is a lot nicer car, but I can't complain about the Galant. It was a reliable car for me.
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It was an early 2000's vehicle.