Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: bbroj on July 19, 2012, 07:03:24 PM
-
I have a new and unusual sensation coming from the front of the bike. I have experienced it before, but on another bike and don't recall ever figuring out what it was before the bike got sold. It's difficult to describe, so bear with me while I try to find a few "feels like" scenarios. It feels like the front "dips" to one side, like when you're standing with all your weight on one leg and your buddy comes up behind you and bumps the back of the knee that's holding all of your weight. Another way to describe it is as if the front wheel is getting hit by a gust of wind, but just the wheel. It seems to be there at any speed and is not dramatic, but annoying. I have recently changed the fork oil and it was the same volume added to each leg, I checked the level as best I could and will try to check it again this weekend. The springs were equal length and within spec. I pulled the front wheel and checked the bearings, both are free and smooth. The brake pads have even wear, and I don't believe even if one was grabbing more than the other, it would have an effect (both discs are in the same plane as the wheel, and some bikes probably still come with single discs). It does not seem to favor one side or the other, but I have the sensation that it takes more input to turn right (this could me overthinking things, I have always leaned left easier and more confidently than right). So, any ideas?
-
Blaise Im no more of an expert than you are. I know that you said that you checked the front bearings by spinning the tire. Could this be a bearing issue? If the bearings were "grabing" would it feel like your describing? IDK very interesting; sorry I cant help brotha.
-
Chris, I thought the same thing, so since that time I did pull the wheel and propperly check them. I stuck my finger in each bearing and turned them full circle feeling for any notchieness or binding. Nothin', they felt smooth free.
-
I have always leaned left easier and more confidently than right
Hey! Keep the politics in the Arena. :rotflmao:
Check that you don't have a cable, hose, (brake or clutch lines) or wires catching the fork at some point. Something catching over a bolt or edge that would hold and release the fork might give a weird feeling. Steering head bearings would be another item I'd look at.
-
Thanks, Jon. I did just change the speedometer cable, I'll check all of the hose/cable routings. I hope to pull and grease the head bearings, it is again, a matter of if I have all the tools I need with me, or if I call on other local COGers to help out with time and tools.
-
When does it give you this feeling? Braking? All the time? Just with bumps?
I thought head bearings too. If they're worn or 'dinked' from being too loose too long, or way too tight, they'll try to settle into their 'low spot'.
I've not had this, but I could imagine if one leg was binding it would cause that feeling. Maybe try the 'old zip tie trick' on both legs and see if they're both moving up the same amount. Just wrap one (or two to make 'em long enough) just tight enough to hold it's position around each tube. Slide 'em down to the dust cover. Go ride. After you stop (the important part), measure how much each has gone up.
Preload the same on each leg? Same heights in the clamps? Legs straight and aligned?
Worn tires can cause this too. I had that problem, among many others, when I got Vrooomm. It'll probably be easily visible as one side of the tire being more worn than the other. If you have to look at it hard to tell, it's probably ok. If you look at it and say "Holy Crap!", that's it :)
-
I have not had the head bearings out, but have adjusted them. I want to remove, pack and readjust them, but I have to see if I have all of the necessary tools with me. I do not feel an on-center notch, either on the c-stand (unweighted forks) or on the ground (weighted forks). Admittedly, on the ground is more difficult to tell. I can and will try the zip tie test, probably on my way home today. I have read that this is also a good tool to use when determining front preload, mine are equal and forks are at the same height in the clamps. Tire wear is a possibility, but nothing screams at me when I look at the front tire, though I can see the begining of the front tire wearing flat around the center, just barely. I appreciate the input and will keep looking for the cause, keep the ideas coming! :thumbs:
-
It is easy to check the stem bearings on the ground. Grab the front brake, rock the bike forward and back and feel with your finger right at the top of the frame were it meets the top stem bearing.
-
Agreed, that's great for checking that they are not loose. I still want to get them out as they have not been greased since I've owned the bike, and that likely means they have never been done. I will use this method to check and adjust to see if it is my problem first though.
-
I think I found my issue. I was going to try with the tools I have on hand to remove and repack the stem bearings, but decided to recheck things before begining to disassemble. I found a very subtle "on center" notch. I turned right through it each time I checked before, and even the first time or two on this attempt, but it's there, no doubt. I was thinking of asking if repacking would help, but I know the answer. Even if it did it would only mask the problem for a short while, time to replace the head bearings. I've done this before on a different bike, maybe 2 different bikes, and the process doesn't worry me, but my limited tool supply has me a bit anxious. Time too call up the troops and see if I can get another weekend tech-help session together ;) The "special tools" in the book all seem like they have relatively simple DIY alternatives, am I mistaken? Race removal tool=long drift pin, work slowly around the diameter. Race installation tool=threaded rod, washers and nuts. Stem adjustment tool=old shock adjust tool and/or small punch and hammer. Sound about right?
-
Since you are already questioning the steering bearings, a quick check is to move the bars with the front wheel off -- the reduction in mass makes bad bearings that much more noticible. I had 'notchy' steering a while back -- checked my bearings and found significant 'brinelling'
-
That is what my swingarm bearings looked like.
-
I may have some luck in gathering a few tools, my sister is coming down in a week so I may be able to have her bring a few items from my garage that I will need. I am wondering if anyone knows, or can check, the size of the steering stem head nut? I have Heli bars on my bike and would need to remove them just to get the plastic cover off to get to that nut to check its size. I will have her bring my torque wrenches for this and other projects and a few other misc items I need. any help with that nut size is appreciated as well as any tool suggestions that may help things go a bit easier.
-
Not sure of the metric size, but I know a 1-1/16" will fit the steering head nut.
-
Maybe 27mm? I have that here with me, it's the size needed to remove the rear wheel.
-
Nope..
I been there and done that.
Race removal tool=long drift pin, work slowly around the diameter.
May work but most likely it will not work. You cannot get a drift pin or punch to catch the edge of the race. You need a steering stem removal tool. I spent all day getting that race out. I had to dremel out 2 small l notches to get a custom ground and bent (heat with a torch and glowing to bend it) very long punch to even reach and catch on the edge of the taper bearing and even then it took a lot of pounding. Not worth it so I have the correct tool now. 5 minutes with the tool.
Race installation tool=threaded rod, washers and nuts. Nope, it has to go in perfectly straight or it will jam sideways. Harbor Freight sells taper bearing install kit for very cheap and it works. You will take a chance scoring the face of the taper bearing without the correct tool.
Stem adjustment tool=old shock adjust tool and/or small punch and hammer. Sound about right?
Nope, you can do that but it eventually it will make a mess of the nut and your going to be back at least once or twice to re adjust as the bearing wears and seats itself in so your going to want the correct tool. I think I bought my tool from Murphs but I cant be sure. Some of the other folks here can tell that preload adjuster wrenches from other bikes will fit our steering stem nut.
I know the wrench is over one inch.
I do believe turbojoe78 is correct - a 1-1/16 will fit. When metric sizes get big enough they seem to start matching some of the SAE sizes
-
Well, thanks for rainin' on my parade ;) So you're saying all 3 special tools should be on hand for this job? I'll check Murph's and see what he has, I just ordered the bearing set. The bearing race press, can't be done even using the old bearings to help center the threaded rod? I can get big diameter rod, like 5/8 or 3/4 inch stuff. I want to do it right, but I am a Connie owner, frugal goes without saying!
-
The upper race is pretty easy to drive out -- the lip is easy to catch from the bottom. The lower race is the hard one, there is a recess that makes it very difficult to catch the edge of the race with a drift or screwdriver. Harbor Freight sells a bent tip pry bar that can work -- but 'can' is a weasel word. It's how I got mine out, but it was a lot of work.
http://www.harborfreight.com/4-piece-heavy-duty-pry-bar-set-1654.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/4-piece-heavy-duty-pry-bar-set-1654.html)
I've also used a large all-thread with big washers to drive the bearing cups back in -- I don't speak for others, but it worked for me.
I see that the K&L bearings from Mr. Murphy are made in Japan -- much better than All Balls first China quality.
-
Will something like this http://www.harborfreight.com/3-jaw-pilot-bearing-puller-4876.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/3-jaw-pilot-bearing-puller-4876.html) work for the lower race? I have not seen the inside of this assembly yet, so I don't know how much room there is before the lip that interferes with removing the race from the top. I have seen a similar tool with a slide hammer instead of the press assembly, any suggestions from those that have done it?
Here's the slide hammer one http://www.harborfreight.com/blind-hole-bearing-puller-95987.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/blind-hole-bearing-puller-95987.html)
-
Still looking for some help and advice here. I have the bearings and plan on doing this project next weekend. For anyone who has done this, the book says to remove the fairing, is it really necessary? I have read several threads and an article in the Concourier, no one mentions if the fairing actually has to be removed or not. Also, several have mentioned difficulty removing the lower bearing as well as the bearing race. I'm hoping a pilot bearing removal tool will do for the race (see my previous post), any experienced advice on either the race or bearing removal will be appreciated. Thanks.
-
The exact tool Kawa recommends for the race removal can be found by googling....posse steering stem race remover. It's selling on amazon for 45.00 and saw one marked as a HD/Buell tool on ebay for 35.00. Tool has spreadable jaws that lock onto the race. You can or I did use a couple of chisels side by side to drive from the top to keep jaws spread. It takes a couple chisels to be thick enough to wedge in the tool. Will pop that race out slick as butta.
Roger
-
You don't have to take the upper fairing off but it sure is much easier with it out of the way. If you are using any tool other than the factory special tools, you will be doing this by trial and error some may work but you will not know until you try.
There is an article in the C-10 Wiki which explains one method of changing out the bearings and races. You might want to take a look at it.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1320.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1320.0)
-
I'm sure I will find out when I have it apart, but which bearing is the bigger one, the top or the bottom? I picked up the HF pilot bearing puller, but it does not spread wide enough for the larger race. If the lower is the smaller race, it fits perfectly.
-
Pretty certain the larger bearing is the lower one -- part of why it's so dang difficult to get the lower out. At some point, there was an instruction set on how to make a removal tool from a washer with one side ground flat so that it can pass through the race, then turn to flat against the race. Haven't seen the post in a while but imagine it's still on the web somewhere.
As an alternative, Park tools makes a tool that looks perfect, though it may be too small for our races:
http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-Head-Cup-Remover/dp/B006WLKU6A (http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-Head-Cup-Remover/dp/B006WLKU6A)
There's a guy on Youtube who makes his own version, and seems to have good luck with it:
Bearing race driver..wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC0HpJch1Ec#)
-
The link in Roadhounds post above mentions the washer method, I may end up there, but I'm pretty good with a Dremmel if it comes to that. I also picked up this, http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-general-purpose-tire-iron-93230.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-general-purpose-tire-iron-93230.html) as a last alternative drift/punch/general drive tool. I'll cut it in half if necessary to get a better surface to hit with a hammer. I thought the shape may help me get to the race. Too bad the lower race is the bigger one, the slide hammer tool looked pretty promising.
-
Takes longer for some to learn
-
Takes longer for some to learn
No, but I am trying to do this within a certain time frame. I'm trying to get things locally that I KNOW I can have in time for when I plan to do the job. I'm looking into the correct tool and if I can have it in time for the planned job, I am fully aware of the value of having the right tool for the job. However, I also have the ability to improvise in the absence of those tools and am preparing for that as well.
-
So far, so good. I have the bike mostly apart, both bearing races are out and I still need to remove the lower bearing. The lower race came out relatively easily with the tire iron I picked up at HF. I tried the washer method first, but was struggling to get the washer turned inside the head tube. I had the bar and decided to give it a shot. The shape is about perfect and the race was out with a few taps. I also have the HF bearing puller set, I hope not to use it so I can return it, as I have a 20 ton press and bearing pullers at my garage in NY and really don't need the puller set except for this job. Hopefully I can borrow a bearing splitter and be all set.
-
The bike is on it's way back together. The stem is back in and all is going well. I'll try to post a few pics of what I used and how I used it. I used the HF bearing puller with some alterations to the "normal" method. The puller will not get under the bearing because the steering stops are in the way. I intentionally cut away the cage holding the rollers and removed the cage and rollers. Now, the bearing puller had room to grab the top ridge of race portion of the bearing and it worked perfectly. To install the new bearing, the upper portion of a Craftsman floor jack handle is the ideal dimension. I did use the free rental option from my local O'Riely Auto Parts store race insertion driver. So far, this job has not been beyond the ability of myself, or I would say any reasonably competant DIY'er with a decent selection of tools and the will and ability to improvise.
-
Additional pics, race condition. Note for previous pics, I DID pack the bearing with grease before driving it in place!
-
Takes longer for some to learn
Wow...with help like that you should start your own board.... ::)
Good job Blaise. I know being away from home and your garage full of tools has got to make fixes tough but I know you easily have the ability to get things done. And it's good of you to document it so others can gain some insight.
-
The bike is back together and has been on 2 test rides before it got too dark to continue. Simply making the final bearing load adjustment, going slowly and doing it right, including tank removal each time (I would be sure to scratch it) and retorqueing the lower clamp bolts each time. The adjustment is as the book describes it should be, but I'm using the 50mph-45mph decel wobble as my final test. Instead of doing this project Sunday like I planned, looks like I may be going for a ride tomorow instead ;D
-
Project successfully completed ;D It took several test rides and most of the morning to get it tuned to where I wanted it, but it has ZERO decel wobble and turns side to side with minimal resistance, but it's far from "falling" to each side. From my perception, it has to be a lot tighter than I would have expected, but again, the tool I was using to tighten the bearing had no more than a 4" handle. While it would always be nice to have the right tool for every job, this can certainly be accomplished by a good DIYer with a decent variety of "normal" tools and the ability to use them in other than normal ways. Thanks all for your input and insight.