Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Maverick on February 22, 2012, 09:09:50 AM
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I got 22K miles on the bike and have 2 rides of 2500 mi each almost back to back, manual states 24 K
- Do I do the valve clearance before these trips, or can I safely wait till approximately 28k mi?
- My dealer is exclusively a Kawa dealer, very knowledgeable about the bike, but he has no knowledge about the PCV and autotune; will this job have any incidence on the map and bike tuning? Or would you recommend that I go to the mechanic who installed and mapped the PCV?
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I got 22K miles on the bike and have 2 rides of 2500 mi each almost back to back, manual states 24 K
- Do I do the valve clearance before these trips, or can I safely wait till approximately 28k mi?
asking this question here, of people that will not be paying for your bike to be repaired in the event there is an issue, is a bit iffy.
you need to make the decision on whether you feel lucky. We have no idea how you ride, the load you put the bike under, or anything about the bike YOU own and maintain, so in a nutshell, I would suggest doing the service prior to doing the additional 5, 000 miles.
Some here in the USA insist the bike does not need attention till in excess of 24k, there are others of us that have done this service ourselves, and have found clearances that certainly needed attention.
It's your call, and your bike, and it depends on how long you may want to own it.
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I would like to know how many here did their own valve clearance check at 15k miles and found one of more valves grossly out of adjustment. Most of the time they are still well within specified range.
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It all depends on longitude. According to Kawasaki its 15,000 miles if you live in NA but 26,000 miles if you live in Europe. ;D
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It all depends on longitude. According to Kawasaki its 15,000 miles if you live in NA but 26,000 miles if you live in Europe. ;D
That is my exactly my point, same bike but across the pond manual states 24K for valve clearance !
Aside from that, are there any incidence on the PCV maps when doing the valve check ?
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I have had multiple dealers tell me that they don't even recommend it until at least 25,000 miles. I'm having mine done right now at over 29,000 miles. My dealer told me I am due now, but didn't seem overly concerned about me waiting that long. I'll know this weekend how bad it needed it.
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I remember a thread where a guy (Flyin'Kaw IIRC) was told by his dealer which was also a friend, and was told to wait until 40,000 miles for his first valve check. I'm not sure about exactly how far out his valves were but I don't think they were in bad shape at all. But like MOB stated if you plan on keeping the bike you might want to go ahead and get it taken care of. Or you could roll the dice, more than likely you will be just fine but there is always that chance.................. YMMV
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I would like to know how many here did their own valve clearance check at 15k miles and found one of more valves grossly out of adjustment. Most of the time they are still well within specified range.
Did mine at 14000 miles because it I did it over the winter when the bike was put up. 15 out of 16 were out of spec and needing of new shims.
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That is my exactly my point, same bike but across the pond manual states 24K for valve clearance !
Aside from that, are there any incidence on the PCV maps when doing the valve check ?
Having a PCV installed should have minimal impact on performing a valve clearance check or adjustment, just one extra connector to unplug.
The possibility of an over-rich or over-lean condition due to an improperly tuned PCV may be a good reason to due the check sooner rather than later. I recall one report of valve damage apparently due to excessive carbon buildup but I do not recall whether a PC was involved.
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asking this question here, of people that will not be paying for your bike to be repaired in the event there is an issue, is a bit iffy.
I'm not paying for his bike repairs, but I am still going to say to get the valves checked. It is like an oil change- a little too soon is better than a little too late, especially before a long trip.
The other reason, besides making sure that valves are in spec, is that inspection should include throttle synching. For all you know, they might be slightly out, gone out over time so you are not too aware of it. If that was the case, after a synch, you'd say "wow, feels real smooth!" and this would make a difference on 5000 miles of riding.
I know that whenever I'd take out my buzzy katana 1100 for a long trip, I'd set up the sticks and tweak the synch to make sure all was purfect to save my wee hands.
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I would like to know how many here did their own valve clearance check at 15k miles and found one of more valves grossly out of adjustment. Most of the time they are still well within specified range.
Moot point.
He is talking stretching to 28k, and doing 5000 miles of trips in a back to back jaunt, before even looking.
I still maintain that the MAJORITY of us here that did the service ourselves, found the need to make compensations. Most of the folks that took them to dealers were told the bike is "fine", and very few have an actual map of measurements from said dealers to prove it. I can pretty much gurantee everyone that did thier own work, has documentation of the actual measurements, and what now lives inside the engine. ;)
There did at one time exist a poll, showing our responses on what was found and when, I don't have time to find that thread.
oh, make sure you change that air filter before the trip also....most folks don't touch it untill they do the valves, and @ 20k, it does need an air filter.... ;)
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I would like to know how many here did their own valve clearance check at 15k miles and found one of more valves grossly out of adjustment. Most of the time they are still well within specified range.
did it at 14,400, most were out of range.
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At 25,000 almost all of mine needed changed. One was four or five steps from being correct. But if you have a typical dealer tech check them, chances are, they will all be fine.
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- My dealer is exclusively a Kawa dealer, very knowledgeable about the bike, but he has no knowledge about the PCV and autotune; will this job have any incidence on the map and bike tuning? Or would you recommend that I go to the mechanic who installed and mapped the PCV?
I would ask both of them, how many C-14 or ZX-14 engines have you done a valve adjustment on? Until they have done several, I would definitely not recommend them.
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I would ask both of them, how many C-14 or ZX-14 engines have you done a valve adjustment on? Until they have done several, I would definitely not recommend them.
Your point is a funny one. Many people here say they don't trust dealers and feel better about doing it themselves. But the reason I took mine to a dealer to do it is precisely the reason you stated. I'm a decent mechanic, but I have not been that far into an engine in nearly 30 years. I know my dealer has worked on many ZX14s and Concours. They know what they are doing and I don't. If this were the old days and the shims were on top, and there was not layers of tupperwear and various equipment for smog hanging everywhere I'd do mine still. But the level of difficulty has changed from the last time I did a valve adjustment myself many times over.
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+1
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If this were the old days and the shims were on top, and there was not layers of tupperwear and various equipment for smog hanging everywhere I'd do mine still. But the level of difficulty has changed from the last time I did a valve adjustment myself many times over.
Shims? I am used to screw adjusters on my old bike. Tell you what, with all the local law enforcement agencies buying these bikes for service, all you'll need to do is find the dealer with the service contract for them, they should have experience with them.
I think the highway patrol cop that I talked to said he puts around 20k miles a year on his BMW, was looking forward to his new state issued C14.
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That is my exactly my point, same bike but across the pond manual states 24K for valve clearance !
Aside from that, are there any incidence on the PCV maps when doing the valve check ?
It all depends on longitude. According to Kawasaki its 15,000 miles if you live in NA but 26,000 miles if you live in Europe. ;D
In the USA we measure distance in miles, 15,000. In Europe and most of the rest of the world the unit of measure is kilometers, 24,000. Valve clearance and Power Commander V are in no way related.
How in the hell does longitude have anything at all to do with any questions or answers in this thread?
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Have almost 15k on mine now, gonna wait till 25k. I think I trust the dealer to do mine, although I will more than likely tackle it myself. Seems the dealers almost always see them within spec, yet when we do it they need adjusted.
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Because Kawasaki quotes two different mileage intervals depending on where the bike was sold. If sold in the US or Canada, a valve lash check is required at 15K miles. If sold anywhere else in the world the intervals are 26,000 miles. The valve trains are identical between all C-14s so there is no mechanical reason for this difference. The only reason any of us could ever think of was emissions- it is probably a US regulation and Canada just got lumped in so all the bikes sold in both countries have the same maintenance schedule.
At any rate, it is pretty odd and has confused a lot of people since the bike was first introduced.
Brian
In the USA we measure distance in miles, 15,000. In Europe and most of the rest of the world the unit of measure is kilometers, 24,000. Valve clearance and Power Commander V are in no way related.
How in the hell does longitude have anything at all to do with any questions or answers in this thread?
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At 25,000 almost all of mine needed changed. One was four or five steps from being correct. But if you have a typical dealer tech check them, chances are, they will all be fine.
What you mean by "four or five steps of being correct"?
Were the valve clearances all out of the acceptable RANGE? Or they were just not in the middle of the range?
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Because Kawasaki quotes two different mileage intervals depending on where the bike was sold. If sold in the US or Canada, a valve lash check is required at 15K miles. If sold anywhere else in the world the intervals are 26,000 miles. The valve trains are identical between all C-14s so there is no mechanical reason for this difference. The only reason any of us could ever think of was emissions- it is probably a US regulation and Canada just got lumped in so all the bikes sold in both countries have the same maintenance schedule.
At any rate, it is pretty odd and has confused a lot of people since the bike was first introduced.
Brian
This reminds me of recommended timing belt change interval for my Mazda 626. It is officially 60k miles, but for some states it is 105k miles. When I inquired if Mazda sells 60k and 105k miles belts, they do not. They only sell one timing belt, and it is the 105k miles belt. So I have been changing the timing belt every 100k miles, with no problems to date. I am on my fourth belt now.
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What you mean by "four or five steps of being correct"?
Were the valve clearances all out of the acceptable RANGE? Or they were just not in the middle of the range?
I would have to assume from his explanation that he had to go 4 shim size difference to bring it to range, which seems a bit high, but it isn't un imaginable.
My personal experience was similar, but not as excessive, and must needed a shim 2 sizes from where they were to bring them in mid range/high mid range; which is where I suggest folks aim to when they do this. With careful measuring, and creative swapping of the barrels along with the shims, you can set them all at the top limit, prolonging the service interval safely, knowing you aren't at the bottom limit when you button it up.....kinda like saying because the oil on your dipstick is sitting 1/32nd of an inch from the "add oil" line. ::)
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I had mine done at 15k and was told they were all in spec. Again at 30k and 8 needed adjustment. Between the valve check, throttle sync, and all the other service items, the bike ran noticeably better after the 30k service. I would bet that yours is due, but would be fine after another 5k. If you can get it done before the trip, you may be happy to have the bike run a little better for you.
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Se viene usato olio tutto sintetico al 100% ad ogni cambio olio e filtro come ripotato dal libretto USO E MANUTENZIONE( EUROPEO)....,il gioco valvole prima delle 40.000 Miglia la mia GTR 1400 my 2007 non farà detta regolazione,...vedremo???,non è detto che a dette Miglia si debba fare.
If you use all 100% synthetic oil at every oil change and filter by product are shown as a book, OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE (EUROPEAN) ...., the first valve clearance of my GTR 1400 40,000 miles my 2007 does not make this adjustment, .. . see??, does not mean that we should do with those miles
MGvalerio 8)
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I would have to assume from his explanation that he had to go 4 shim size difference to bring it to range, which seems a bit high, but it isn't un imaginable.
My personal experience was similar, but not as excessive, and must needed a shim 2 sizes from where they were to bring them in mid range/high mid range; which is where I suggest folks aim to when they do this. With careful measuring, and creative swapping of the barrels along with the shims, you can set them all at the top limit, prolonging the service interval safely, knowing you aren't at the bottom limit when you button it up.....kinda like saying because the oil on your dipstick is sitting 1/32nd of an inch from the "add oil" line. ::)
That reminds me: It is my understanding that the valve clearance on these bikes will always decrease (or remain constant) with wear. Is that correct, or can the clearance increase with usage?
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Valve lash can increase or decrease although the general tendency is to decrease.
It depends on where the wear occurs in the valve train; the valve seats tend to wear more than any other part, and that will decrease the valve lash. The cam follower (the bucket in 'shim under bucket') and the cam lobes themselves also wear and that will increase valve lash.
Also as a general rule, cam lobes and followers tend to wear when new and 'seating' and then hold dimension for a long time. Also, with modern finishing techniques and metallurgy, cam lobes and followers wear much less than they did in the good old days.
So everything taken together, valve lash in the systems of C-14 and similar valve arrangements tend to decrease but it is not a rule or the only way they can move.
Brian
That reminds me: It is my understanding that the valve clearance on these bikes will always decrease (or remain constant) with wear. Is that correct, or can the clearance increase with usage?
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That is my exactly my point, same bike but across the pond manual states 24K for valve clearance !
But wouldn't that be in Kilometers? Which is 15,000 miles?
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Just got my Concours back from the shop today. Needed no new shims, and yes he wrote down the measurements for me. My bike has just a hair under 30,000 miles on it. He told me when I picked it up that he was not surprised it didn't need any. He said it's unusual for them to need any. BTW, the service manager worked on the bike himself and his personal bike is an 08 Concours, and the parts manager has a ZX14 that he also said has never needed any shims changed out.
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But wouldn't that be in Kilometers? Which is 15,000 miles?
No, the service manual specifies, "Other than US CA Model every 42,000 KM (26,000 miles)"
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How in the hell does longitude have anything at all to do with any questions or answers in this thread?
The "Longitude" remark was a joke ;) But seriously my understanding is that in Europe the manual says something like 40,000 km or 24,800 miles, not 15,000 miles like the US.
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This thread has a lot of people wondering. I just looked in both the owner's manual and the Service manual and found that they agree that in the USA the valve service should be performed every 15,000 miles or 24,000 kilometers. All other parts of the world are listed as every 26,000 miles or 42,000 kilometers. How can it be that valve clearances are geographically dependent? Someone who is more curious than I ought to either phone or write to Kawasaki and seek an answer to this conundrum.
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This thread has a lot of people wondering. <snip>
Only the new guys. We've hashed this repeatedly and mostly concluded it's a function of emission warranties/legalities. Possibly also related to the lack of the O2 sensor.