Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: stlhrsrdr on June 12, 2011, 06:32:31 PM
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what kind of increase in power will the zx 14 throttle bodies give?my bike is an '08,area P full system,k/n filter,and PC III.currently has stock throttle bodies with the flies removed.flies are also out of the zx throttle bodies.thanks.
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alot of folks are waiting for those that have done the mod to dyno their bikes.....a few "seat of pants" reviews but no hard data.........i'd also be curious about MPG changes at steady cruise modes.........maybe we should start a dyno fund
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I'm definitely waiting to see some dyno results from this mod too. If the results are positive, this will go on my winter project list.
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Butt dynos are not the way to go.....Who dosen't want to see improvement after they do all that work.
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alot of folks are waiting for those that have done the mod to dyno their bikes.....a few "seat of pants" reviews but no hard data.........i'd also be curious about MPG changes at steady cruise modes.........maybe we should start a dyno fund
I’d be in to starting a dyno fund. That way not only will we find out if and how much power the Zx14 TB’s are making but we will also get a PCV map to work with. My Zx14 TB’s are collecting dust on my bench.
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Ditto on the dust! Soon, soon. I'll share the MAP from the Auto Tune as soon as I have it done. Rode the Hoh (Rainforest ya perves) on the KLR this weekend, maybe I will treat myself to a Fathers day gift on Sunday.
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I went to the open house at my local dealer. They had free dyno runs. I waited in line for 1 1/2 hours in the rain. Finally my turn. Everything is hooked up and the dyno operator does a couple of pulls. He stops and starts fiddling with his computer. Re-boots it and starts again. Another pull and I'm getting excited. Still no cigar. After some more screwing around, he says it seems water has gotten into some electronics on the dyno somewhere so no HP numbers show. Damn. We did see however that my A/F ratio looked good. I need to know! Anyway I will be going to the dyno operators shop next week to finish this whole thing. I have an 09 with a full Yoshimura pipe, PCV, Autotune, K&N air filter and ZX14 tb's with flies removed. I will post my results.
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I went to the open house at my local dealer. They had free dyno runs. I waited in line for 1 1/2 hours in the rain. Finally my turn. Everything is hooked up and the dyno operator does a couple of pulls. He stops and starts fiddling with his computer. Re-boots it and starts again. Another pull and I'm getting excited. Still no cigar. After some more screwing around, he says it seems water has gotten into some electronics on the dyno somewhere so no HP numbers show. Damn. We did see however that my A/F ratio looked good. I need to know! Anyway I will be going to the dyno operators shop next week to finish this whole thing. I have an 09 with a full Yoshimura pipe, PCV, Autotune, K&N air filter and ZX14 tb's with flies removed. I will post my results.
Did you use a Yoshimura full system that was designed for the ZX-14? If so, did it just bolt up without modifications?
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/stenton/5835273671/#secreta18e3b773din/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stenton/5835273671/#secreta18e3b773din/photostream)
ECU re-map'd by http://www.dptune.com/ (http://www.dptune.com/) standard EU bike with Vance & Hines
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^ Does that bike have ZX-14 throttle bodies installed? Because that's what this thread was pertaining to.
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^ Does that bike have ZX-14 throttle bodies installed? Because that's what this thread was pertaining to.
No, Topic is "HOW MUCH POWER?" 144 :)
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Does the ZX14 tb affect the traction control in 2011 C14's?
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Does the ZX14 tb affect the traction control in 2011 C14's?
Just speculation here but I would say yes it would affect the KTRAC. It might be so small of a difference to be noticeable but KTRAC makes me want to stick with the 2009 and older bikes since the power has gotten so addictive after pulling the flies.
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my buddy has a dyno about a block from my house.he bought it second hand,and the guy he bought it from is suppose to be down here today to show him how to tune with it.i'm waiting to install my zx14 tb untill after his "training". we did do a pull with my connie just for giggles,and it showed 157hp.WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE SET UP OF THE DYNO,was just a pull to be doing a pull.
my bike is an '08 with full area P,k/n filter,flies removed,and a PC III with fuel moto map.as soon as he gets his training,we'll do another pull before the tb swap.then i will install the zx14 tb and tune.i'll let ya'll know what we come up with.
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my buddy has a dyno about a block from my house.he bought it second hand,and the guy he bought it from is suppose to be down here today to show him how to tune with it.i'm waiting to install my zx14 tb untill after his "training". we did do a pull with my connie just for giggles,and it showed 157hp.WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE SET UP OF THE DYNO,was just a pull to be doing a pull.
my bike is an '08 with full area P,k/n filter,flies removed,and a PC III with fuel moto map.as soon as he gets his training,we'll do another pull before the tb swap.then i will install the zx14 tb and tune.i'll let ya'll know what we come up with.
Sweet! Make sure to keep us updated.
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Sweet! Make sure to keep us updated.
+1
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Just speculation here but I would say yes it would affect the KTRAC. It might be so small of a difference to be noticeable but KTRAC makes me want to stick with the 2009 and older bikes since the power has gotten so addictive after pulling the flies.
OK, I'm screwed. well sort of. I went into my local Kawi dealer today and talked to the "lead" bike mechanic. Nice guy, let me just get that out of the way. But, when I asked if pulling the flies on my 2011 would affect the traction control, his anwser was "I don't think it would really affect it that much"? I would think that it either would or it wouldn't. Then I asked him what he thought I could do to get some more low end power/torque out of the bike. He suggested at first a slip-on, and then later changed his answer to a PCV. I am no mechanic, but I couldn't imagine that just adding a PCV would give me the desired increases I am looking for or enough to even feel a difference would it?
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my buddy has a dyno about a block from my house.he bought it second hand,and the guy he bought it from is suppose to be down here today to show him how to tune with it.i'm waiting to install my zx14 tb untill after his "training". we did do a pull with my connie just for giggles,and it showed 157hp.WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE SET UP OF THE DYNO,was just a pull to be doing a pull.
my bike is an '08 with full area P,k/n filter,flies removed,and a PC III with fuel moto map.as soon as he gets his training,we'll do another pull before the tb swap.then i will install the zx14 tb and tune.i'll let ya'll know what we come up with.
cool!....your current set up is just like mine.......cant wait!
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ZX-14 TBs going in later this week. WHOO HOO! SOTP Dyno report after first ride... and more after trims are accepted.
Barry
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ZX-14 TBs going in later this week. WHOO HOO! SOTP Dyno report after first ride... and more after trims are accepted.
Barry
You going to do a"before" dyno run also? The comparison would be cool.
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You going to do a"before" dyno run also? The comparison would be cool.
+1
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You going to do a"before" dyno run also? The comparison would be cool.
No time. The bike came to me with a 149.xx hp dyno sheet. So figure 150+ whatever it makes if I get around to doing another pull post install.
Barry
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Well, here it is. 160.38 hp. As I stated in my previous post, I have an '09 with a Yosh zx14 full pipe, K&N filter with the zx14 throttle bodies ,PCV and Autotune. A couple of things to note. I used 06 throttle bodies and left the 06 injectors in them. I was confused because the Autotune kept taking fuel away instead of adding. I ended up having a custom map made because of this. The injectors are not the same. They work fine but are different than the c14 injectors . The part number for the zx14 injectors are the same as the c14 for 08 on. The 06 and 07 zx14 injectors are different part numbers. The map for the old injectors won't work for the newer ones. The other thing to note is that there is likely more power to be had by raising the rev limiter. It is set at 10000 rpm now.( The tach says 10500 but is 500 rpm optimistic.) The rev limit for a zx14 is 11250 so it should be safe to do. Could be 5-10 more,maybe. The Autotune map was very close but the tuner got 5 more hp with manipulation.
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Well, here it is. 160.38 hp. As I stated in my previous post, I have an '09 with a Yosh zx14 full pipe, K&N filter with the zx14 throttle bodies ,PCV and Autotune. A couple of things to note. I used 06 throttle bodies and left the 06 injectors in them. I was confused because the Autotune kept taking fuel away instead of adding. I ended up having a custom map made because of this. The injectors are not the same. They work fine but are different than the c14 injectors . The part number for the zx14 injectors are the same as the c14 for 08 on. The 06 and 07 zx14 injectors are different part numbers. The map for the old injectors won't work for the newer ones. The other thing to note is that there is likely more power to be had by raising the rev limiter. It is set at 10000 rpm now.( The tach says 10500 but is 500 rpm optimistic.) The rev limit for a zx14 is 11250 so it should be safe to do. Could be 5-10 more,maybe. The Autotune map was very close but the tuner got 5 more hp with manipulation.
Wow, very cool! Yeah HP is still climbing when you hit the rev limiter so I bet bumping it up would increase your output. I wonder if any can be done by any of the guys who do the ECU reflashing. Did you have to modify anything to get the full Yosh system to fit the C-14 or did it just bolt on?
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Gearhead82- The midpipe angle had to be bent lower and further out from the bike to clear. The stainless steel the pipe is made of is soft and bent to the proper position easily. The hanger bracket also needed to be lengthened. That was easily done with a short strap, dropping the pipe about an inch. I also should add that I made a deal with the tuner of my bike . If he cut me a good price on the tune he could have the map to sell to those who wanted it. He is a Dynojet dealer and will provide the map with a PCV purchase.The agreement was to charge $20 for the map to those who already have a PCV.. He kind of came out on the short end on that. For those of you who may have the older 06-07 injectors in thier bike it is a good deal and a great map. He cleaned up the bottom end fueling so no more on-off throttle response and my mileage has been a couple mpg better than before.
Contact:
Bikeman Performance
Erich Long
715-294-4575
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No offense meant, but......
Nice number, but unfortunately thats all it is....a nice number. Without a before and after dyno run on the same dyno (in a relatively small timeframe) - numbers really mean nothing, other than bragging rights. What we are looking for is a % increase after the ZX14 throttle bodies are installed with nothing else changing (other than a tuned map). Different dyno's will always show different HP numbers. You could go to Chicago and get a dyno run then crate up the bike, fly it to Atlanta and the numbers will be different.
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That didn't take long.
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Really didn't mean to burst your bubble. In fact, yours is the first I know that has had a dyno run after the TBs have been changed. But what I am saying is, what if your bike was making 162hp before the mod? Unlikely, I know, but that is my point, what is the difference that the TBs made?
In contrast my '09 with Flies out, AreaP full exhaust, carbon can, BMC air filter, PC-V with Jamie's standard map is making 151 hp. What you need to know is the same day, completely stock, the bike made 134 hp which is roughly a 12% gain.
If I added the ZX TBs, I would get a dyno run done, install them, tune the PC-V map, and make a final dyno run.
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Well, here it is. 160.38 hp.
So we may not have a Dyno comparison with a before & after Zx14 TB install and nor do we know if the Conny injectors would have performed better or not. That being said,
Rudy,
1. Was there a noticeable seat of the pant difference after the TB install?
2. Have you noticed any difference with you fuel mileage since the install?
One thing we have learned from this dyno run is that we won’t be making the 180 HP that I was secretly dreaming of.
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Coomer,
There is absolutely a difference in power and the way it makes it. There is slightly less low end power but more on top. It really pulls hard in the upper revs. Fuel mileage after a couple of tanks has been about 2mpg better. Thats probably due to the map. I dont think the c14 injectors would make any more power as the performance of the zx14 didnt change over those years but who knows?
I totally understand Rawmans point about a before and after dyno run and I'm not trying to make any mine is bigger claims. Take it for what its worth. Time will tell as more of us have done this mod and get a dyno run or someone does a before and after run. Its only conjecture on my part but I think its reasonable to believe that this mod is worth in the area of 10hp. I thought I would share what I have learned as so many others have on this forum.
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Coomer,
There is absolutely a difference in power and the way it makes it. There is slightly less low end power but more on top. It really pulls hard in the upper revs. Fuel mileage after a couple of tanks has been about 2mpg better. Thats probably due to the map. I dont think the c14 injectors would make any more power as the performance of the zx14 didnt change over those years but who knows?
I totally understand Rawmans point about a before and after dyno run and I'm not trying to make any mine is bigger claims. Take it for what its worth. Time will tell as more of us have done this mod and get a dyno run or someone does a before and after run. Its only conjecture on my part but I think its reasonable to believe that this mod is worth in the area of 10hp. I thought I would share what I have learned as so many others have on this forum.
thanks for sharing..........
interesting that the seat of the pants suggests a detectable reduction in low end......would still like to see the B4 and after dyno runs as suggested above.....for my purposes, losing some low end to gain 10 HP from 10K upwards wouldnt be worth the $ and effort........would need to assess the curves i guess and cost/benefit etc.....
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I would make a guess that the low end power reduction he feels is due to the increased top end and it is just a feeling, or possibly the low end of the map needs to be tweaked. You should get better hp throughout the rev range.
To beat a dead horse: That is why a dyno run before and after any performance mod is critical. You can see where you are getting better and what is not working.
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Coomer (or others with the ZX TB mod)....
I'm curious as to the following:
1. Below what RPM is there somewhat less power?
2. Above what RPM is there more power?
I for one do NOT want to trade low-end grunt (which the mods I have create in spades) for a high-revving bike. NOPE.
That said, I dropped the bike for 30K tuneup and was going to have the TBs installed. Noted the secondary shaft was damaged, and inside of one TB was scored. Sending them back. Given the comment on "less power down low", I'm glad I am not installing them.
Appreciate comments on 1 and 2 above from anyone that's done this mod.
Thanks,
Barry
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Coomer (or others with the ZX TB mod)....
I'm curious as to the following:
1. Below what RPM is there somewhat less power?
2. Above what RPM is there more power?
I for one do NOT want to trade low-end grunt (which the mods I have create in spades) for a high-revving bike. NOPE.
That said, I dropped the bike for 30K tuneup and was going to have the TBs installed. Noted the secondary shaft was damaged, and inside of one TB was scored. Sending them back. Given the comment on "less power down low", I'm glad I am not installing them.
Appreciate comments on 1 and 2 above from anyone that's done this mod.
Thanks,
Barry
Barry I’m with ya on that one. I have yet to install the TB’s (still waiting for a map) but I have no interest in losing low end grunt which represents 95% of my riding to gain top end power.
It is logical though that most of the gains will be in the top end wile the motor is looking for as much fuel / air mixture as possible. Low end? Not sure.
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we finally had a "training" session for the tuning on the dyno last night(7/26).i will dyno/tune my bike by the weekend.then i will change the throttle bodies,make a pull with no map change.then tune it for the zx 14 throttle bodies.i will post my findings hopefully by the first of the week.if i can figure out how to upload,i'll post the graphs also.anxious for the results!
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I would make a guess that the low end power reduction he feels is due to the increased top end and it is just a feeling, or possibly the low end of the map needs to be tweaked. You should get better hp throughout the rev range.
To beat a dead horse: That is why a dyno run before and after any performance mod is critical. You can see where you are getting better and what is not working.
Rawman, based upon your posts on this thread, you have a very realistic view of such matters - I applaud you for that. I have been around fast cars, boats and motorcycles for many, many (and then some) years. I put an aftermarket turbo on an RX7 nearly 30 years ago, I road raced motorcycles about the same time, and I got into "Cigarette" boats for a while. In the past 10 years I've been big into Corvettes and have seen many dyno pulls and mods. Point being that seat of the pants is rarely accurate, dyno runs must be carefully analyzed and as you say, same day, same conditions etc.
Like I tell people, if I had a tankful of gas for every 90mph boat I beat while showing 83 on my GPS I'd still own those kind of boats.
btw, my comments here are in no way aimed at Rudy - he has been very upfront about the context of his dyno runs. It's like any information on the forum. Even without before and after runs, if we see enough of them they will paint a picture. But right now the sampling is pretty small - but still a data point.
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we finally had a "training" session for the tuning on the dyno last night(7/26).i will dyno/tune my bike by the weekend.then i will change the throttle bodies,make a pull with no map change.then tune it for the zx 14 throttle bodies.i will post my findings hopefully by the first of the week.if i can figure out how to upload,i'll post the graphs also.anxious for the results!
Has this happened yet?
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Heads up, I hope you mimick the ZX14's mad power.
However, hope you don't mimick its fuel mileage. Mine with a tuned street map, Brock's header, and BMC filter got a whopping 27-29 MPG on the street.
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Has this happened yet?
our dyno session has not happened yet,can't get our schedules together.but it is still going to happen.i will post my findings.the before and after will be done on the same dyno,but the pull with the zx14 TB's will probally be the following day.
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our dyno session has not happened yet,can't get our schedules together.but it is still going to happen.i will post my findings.the before and after will be done on the same dyno,but the pull with the zx14 TB's will probally be the following day.
CLOSE ENOUGH! Really wanting a before/after T.B. install comparison. Thanks for making the effort.
Barry
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our dyno session has not happened yet,can't get our schedules together.but it is still going to happen.i will post my findings.the before and after will be done on the same dyno,but the pull with the zx14 TB's will probally be the following day.
Waiting with bated breath.
What are you going to use for a map?
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Just an FYI when comparing Dyno numbers. Obviously we always want to try and compare things back to back for consistency. But we really don't care as much about what the actual number is; only where and what the actual percentage of increase was before and after. Also, the industry accepted and more realistic numbers are done with "SAE" settings. When Dyno operators set the perameters at "STD", this will inflate the numbers by almost 4%. ;)
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Yeap- I'd like to have a dyno and tech to run it sitting around at my beck and call and hope there is no change in the weather from the time I swap parts around but that not going to happen for any of us. The TB swap takes too much time.
I did the ZX14 throttle body install back before the server crashed/got high jacked or whatever happened. I do not have dyno results, but I do KNOW from riding that the power delivery is much better. BCM, Area P full exhaust, PCV, flies removed. There is a slight stumble down low, very low rpm, just off idle where you never ride except when leaving the drive way. Very slight which could propably be fixed with a new map. However it pulls harder all the way to the limiter and does not peter out. The front comes up in 1st and will wheelie over if you keep it pinned, it comes up in 2nd and I weight 220lbs. It did not do this before the TB install.
I did measurements of the intake runners, posted pictures,etc. Looks like the Kawi enginners at the last minute change the TB's from 44mm to 40mm for the C14 and moved on to another project. Why would anyone put a 40mm TB and match it to a 44 mm intake runner boot???? Makes no sense. Why do the dyno runs fall off before the rev limiter? As an enginner for an auto manufactuer I know how deadlines and new product launches go.
So if you want a fancy dyno number keep looking. If you want a fun factor, a big grin when the front end comes up or scare yourself do the ZX14 TB install. You will be happy you did.
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Any body have numbers to quantify the gain of the ZX-14 throttle bodies (before AND after numbers from the same dyno)? I am thinking about picking up a set since my bike is torn apart right now. I am also gonna do a valve lash check and have my dealer replace the valve cover gasket since it has started leaking, so I figured now would be as good of a time as any to do the swap. I just don't want to trade off any low end torque for top end horsepower.
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Bump!
Any back to back dyno numbers yet?
Also, which year ZX-14 throttle bodys work for this?
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Bump!
Any back to back dyno numbers yet?
Also, which year ZX-14 throttle bodys work for this?
2006-2011 will work but IIRC only the 2006-2007 injectors will work well with the C14. But that shouldn't make much difference since most that have done this mod, swapped the C14 injectors over to the ZX throttle bodies. Using the ZX injectors would be nice for someone running a turbo since they could run a higher duty cycle than the C14 injectors.