Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: xsv on March 21, 2012, 07:24:50 AM
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I installed the Rostra on my 09 Concours about 18 months ago. I originally started out with the pretty little switch, but it went bad in a heavy downpour. I installed a momentary on/off/on toggle with the rostra power always on.
The toggle worked well. However, I have an intermittent problem (the best kind!). If the cruise control is engaged and I hit the break or clutch then it releases as it should. When I go to reengage it, it "normally" will not work. I must kill the power to the bike and then it will function again. I say normally because about 80% of the time I must turn the bike off and then back on to get it to work again. Other times I can engage/disengage 3 or 4 times before it stops functioning.
I have posted this problem before and most advise took me to the ground wire. Unfortunately, the ground wire appears to be good. I currently have an email into Rostra, but am wondering if I am the only one experiencing this fairly intermittent problem.
It should be noted that the issue did not start with the install of the toggle.
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I just installed one on my 12 and have not had time to use it much, but I think I am having the same problem. have not ridden it enough yet to worry about it. maybe someone will chime in before I dig into it and see what I can find. I am thinking a dip switch is set wrong but not sure
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I installed the Rostra on my 09 Concours about 18 months ago. I originally started out with the pretty little switch, but it went bad in a heavy downpour. I installed a momentary on/off/on toggle with the rostra power always on.
The toggle worked well. However, I have an intermittent problem (the best kind!). If the cruise control is engaged and I hit the break or clutch then it releases as it should. When I go to reengage it, it "normally" will not work. I must kill the power to the bike and then it will function again. I say normally because about 80% of the time I must turn the bike off and then back on to get it to work again. Other times I can engage/disengage 3 or 4 times before it stops functioning.
I have posted this problem before and most advise took me to the ground wire. Unfortunately, the ground wire appears to be good. I currently have an email into Rostra, but am wondering if I am the only one experiencing this fairly intermittent problem.
It should be noted that the issue did not start with the install of the toggle.
me too, hope you get feedback from rostra.. ???
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The toggle worked well. However, I have an intermittent problem (the best kind!). If the cruise control is engaged and I hit the break or clutch then it releases as it should. When I go to reengage it, it "normally" will not work. I must kill the power to the bike and then it will function again. I say normally because about 80% of the time I must turn the bike off and then back on to get it to work again. Other times I can engage/disengage 3 or 4 times before it stops functioning.
Same issue, but I can usually cancel/reengage the cruise 2-3 times before it won't reengage. I can get it to start working again by turning the cruise off and back on again. Then I reset my speed and can cancel/reengage the cruise 2-3 times before it happens again. Then I have to turn the cruise off and on again and reset the speed...
Nothing really major, but annoying... I hope you hear something.
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.....with the rostra power always on.
I understand that you are looking to find out a reason that it does this, so I'm only recommending this as a short term
solution, but you need to put another power switch somewhere so you can reset it on the fly. A normally closed momentary switch
would be a solution that would leave it like it is (always on) except when it seems to quit responding then it would be like a "reset" switch. Not what you were looking for, but at least you wouldn't need to stop the bike to re-engage it. Mine will occasionally act like that when I over-ride it to pass by giving it a lot more throttle and then before it can resume I hit the brake or clutch (due to traffic or road conditions). I think it goes into a "that does not compute" safety shutdown mode. I have to power off and on before I can re-engage.
I think the Rostra works well normally for what we ask of it, that is to respond linearly to a rotational device. Someone (maybe me, if I ever get the time) needs to come up with a curved arm (think quarter pulley) that can be attached to the throttle arm with the Rostra cable going around it and coming at it from the front of the bike instead of below the bike. That way the Rostra could respond rotationally to a rotational device. Ideally it would have a radius such that the full throttle cable range would closely match the full Rostra cable range. I think there maybe enough room for that, but just barely. Such a set up would make the Rostra less likely to go "TILT", in my opinion.
(It all made sense when I typed it, but now I'm not so sure. :loco:)
Does anybody with a McCruise have pictures of their install? I've always assumed that it came with a curved arm that attached to
the throttle arm or some how piggybacked on the throttle cable to use it's pulley.
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Good suggestion on the reset switch. I have been shutting it down at 70 and quickly restarting.
I heard back from rostra technical support. I know that it is the world we
Live in, but......due to liability reasons they do not offer support to motorcycle applications.
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OK I've had mine installed for about 9 months. It started out working just fine. However it now does EXACTLY the same thing. I am using the nifty little switch that Murph sells with the kit, and it appears to be quite waterproof. Everything works as it should canceling with brakes or clutch. However, If I grab the clutch it will not re-engage. There also seem to be times when it won't re-engage when I grab the brakes, but I can't recall for sure. Either way, I have to turn it off and then back on, then it works fine again.
Actually, now that I think of this, this all started after I took it in to the dealer for the 25,000 mile service plus a leaking valve cover. So I'm sure that there must be some sort of loose wire or something. I'm also interested in a fix. If you discover something, please let us know!
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Interesting. I have not seen or heard of that problem before although it seems that you are not alone. ???
I assume the ON- OFF- ON toggle is wired to function in place of the SET and RESUME switches on the Rostra switch? I had mine also wired so it was 'ON' all the time and used two momentary contact switches as the SET and RESUME buttons but the switches also failed over time and weather exposure. Other than the switches themselves failing, the actuator itself worked correctly all the time with the single switches in place of the gang switch.
Just a kind of off the cuff thought here but perhaps there is too much slack in the Rostra cable? The reason I mention this is because more than one person has had trouble with slack in the cable with a Rostra- that is one of its few internal checks against malfunction. When you engage a Rostra, the motor turns at a fixed rate (the only speed it has) and begins taking up throttle cable until the VSS registers and increase in speed. The Rostra measures the time between engagement and that VSS increase- if it takes too long, the Rostra disengages for safety reasons (it is assumed something is loose or incorrectly connected to the throttle). Once you have used the Rostra, it disengages a clutch and releases the throttle and <may> leave the actual throttle position alone. If this is the case (a guess on my part), then the unit would have to send the throttle all the way to closed, engage the clutch and then begin to take up the slack in the throttle until the vehicle's speed increases. So it would take longer to re- engage than it did the first time after a cold start (power off). If you are near the maximum amount of slack in the Rostra throttle cable to begin with, perhaps this extra travel time kicks the unit over the edge into an error? Again, just a thought on my part but I would check the unit and make sure there is no more than about 1/8" free travel in the Rostra cable until the throttle is taken off its idle stop. There has to be some play in the Rostra cable of course but it cannot be too much.
Brian
I am also surprised that Rostra is no longer helping motorcycle customers- their CC was never intended for use on motorcycles but they had always been very helpful with me even knowing it was a motorcycle installation. In fact, the tech. at Rostra seemed curious and interested. Perhaps something has happened with motorcycle customers to have Rostra create a new policy regarding non- auto use?
I installed the Rostra on my 09 Concours about 18 months ago. I originally started out with the pretty little switch, but it went bad in a heavy downpour. I installed a momentary on/off/on toggle with the rostra power always on.
The toggle worked well. However, I have an intermittent problem (the best kind!). If the cruise control is engaged and I hit the break or clutch then it releases as it should. When I go to reengage it, it "normally" will not work. I must kill the power to the bike and then it will function again. I say normally because about 80% of the time I must turn the bike off and then back on to get it to work again. Other times I can engage/disengage 3 or 4 times before it stops functioning.
I have posted this problem before and most advise took me to the ground wire. Unfortunately, the ground wire appears to be good. I currently have an email into Rostra, but am wondering if I am the only one experiencing this fairly intermittent problem.
It should be noted that the issue did not start with the install of the toggle.
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Yep, you are absolutely correct about the Rostra's response being non-linear but it does not really matter. The useful range of throttle movement on a CC is so small that it does not change appreciably over that travel. As the cable attaches at approx. 90 degrees on the throttle arm, and the throttle's movement is only a few degrees, we can disregard any non- linearity in the loop closure behavior and treat it as if it were linear- really it will be close enough. Besides all of that, even if the CC's attachment were rotary, the response of the engine to throttle movement itself in non- linear anyway; opening the throttle 1/8 of the way allows more than 1/8 of the total airflow or total power, at least at low engine RPM, so whichever way you want to measure linearity.... it isn't linear. Further, as the throttle bodies and throttle plates are round, the entire system becomes even more non- linear and is less and less sensitive to throttle movement (in degrees) as the throttle is opened further and further. Put another way, the last 1/8 of the throttle travel has very little impact on power output compared with the first 1/8 throttle travel.
The MC Cruise is considerably different than a Rostra or Audiovox but only in execution, the principle is the same. The other major difference is that the Rostra is a displacement system (based on position) while the MC Cruise and Audiovox are force based systems (based on force applied- the displacement of the throttle is a secondary function of that force). The MC Cruise actually uses an Audiovox or Audiovox copy actuator and creates a new end point for the throttle cables on the motorcycle. So instead of the throttle cables attaching to the throttle plate shaft, they are moved to attach to the MC Cruise actuator and in turn the actuator has a pair of cables that go to the throttle plate shaft. Functionally it is identical to the Audiovox system- as the vehicle speed pulses decrease per unit time, there is more and more force applied to the throttle to increase the pulse rate. As to if the MC Cruise system is rotary or linear, it is rotary in nature although because of the above stated reasons I do not believe that matters.
Brian
<snip>
I think the Rostra works well normally for what we ask of it, that is to respond linearly to a rotational device. Someone (maybe me, if I ever get the time) needs to come up with a curved arm (think quarter pulley) that can be attached to the throttle arm with the Rostra cable going around it and coming at it from the front of the bike instead of below the bike. That way the Rostra could respond rotationally to a rotational device. Ideally it would have a radius such that the full throttle cable range would closely match the full Rostra cable range. I think there maybe enough room for that, but just barely. Such a set up would make the Rostra less likely to go "TILT", in my opinion.
(It all made sense when I typed it, but now I'm not so sure. :loco:)
Does anybody with a McCruise have pictures of their install? I've always assumed that it came with a curved arm that attached to
the throttle arm or some how piggybacked on the throttle cable to use it's pulley.
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I am also surprised that Rostra is no longer helping motorcycle customers- their CC was never intended for use on motorcycles but they had always been very helpful with me even knowing it was a motorcycle installation. In fact, the tech. at Rostra seemed curious and interested. Perhaps something has happened with motorcycle customers to have Rostra create a new policy regarding non- auto use?
Yep, seems to be the case. I too, contacted Rostra tech support just the other day, in an effort to solve a curious odd problem I was having on my unit and once they were informed the application was on a motorcycle...end of discussion. I had mentioned that they had responded to others questions from both forums in the past and this guy says "no, never". I then asked if I could just run something by him and the answer was simply "NO". His tactfulness and regard for customer service definitely left much to be desired. So for the moment, I think the only tech support is going to be each other regarding Rostra issues.
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The toggle is wired to function in place of the set and resume switches. It is a "waterproof" toggle mounted in the plastic assembly on the other side of the horn/ windshield button housing.
I will check into the cable slack. I knew you would have at least a therory!
Thanks
Interesting. I have not seen or heard of that problem before although it seems that you are not alone. ???
I assume the ON- OFF- ON toggle is wired to function in place of the SET and RESUME switches on the Rostra switch? I had mine also wired so it was 'ON' all the time and used two momentary contact switches as the SET and RESUME buttons but the switches also failed over time and weather exposure. Other than the switches themselves failing, the actuator itself worked correctly all the time with the single switches in place of the gang switch.
Just a kind of off the cuff thought here but perhaps there is too much slack in the Rostra cable? The reason I mention this is because more than one person has had trouble with slack in the cable with a Rostra- that is one of its few internal checks against malfunction. When you engage a Rostra, the motor turns at a fixed rate (the only speed it has) and begins taking up throttle cable until the VSS registers and increase in speed. The Rostra measures the time between engagement and that VSS increase- if it takes too long, the Rostra disengages for safety reasons (it is assumed something is loose or incorrectly connected to the throttle). Once you have used the Rostra, it disengages a clutch and releases the throttle and <may> leave the actual throttle position alone. If this is the case (a guess on my part), then the unit would have to send the throttle all the way to closed, engage the clutch and then begin to take up the slack in the throttle until the vehicle's speed increases. So it would take longer to re- engage than it did the first time after a cold start (power off). If you are near the maximum amount of slack in the Rostra throttle cable to begin with, perhaps this extra travel time kicks the unit over the edge into an error? Again, just a thought on my part but I would check the unit and make sure there is no more than about 1/8" free travel in the Rostra cable until the throttle is taken off its idle stop. There has to be some play in the Rostra cable of course but it cannot be too much.
Brian
I am also surprised that Rostra is no longer helping motorcycle customers- their CC was never intended for use on motorcycles but they had always been very helpful with me even knowing it was a motorcycle installation. In fact, the tech. at Rostra seemed curious and interested. Perhaps something has happened with motorcycle customers to have Rostra create a new policy regarding non- auto use?
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Yep, you are absolutely correct about the Rostra's response being non-linear but it does not really matter. The useful range of throttle movement on a CC is so small that it does not change appreciably over that travel. As the cable attaches at approx. 90 degrees on the throttle arm, and the throttle's movement is only a few degrees, we can disregard any non- linearity in the loop closure behavior and treat it as if it were linear- really it will be close enough. Besides all of that, even if the CC's attachment were rotary, the response of the engine to throttle movement itself in non- linear anyway; opening the throttle 1/8 of the way allows more than 1/8 of the total airflow or total power, at least at low engine RPM, so whichever way you want to measure linearity.... it isn't linear. Further, as the throttle bodies and throttle plates are round, the entire system becomes even more non- linear and is less and less sensitive to throttle movement (in degrees) as the throttle is opened further and further. Put another way, the last 1/8 of the throttle travel has very little impact on power output compared with the first 1/8 throttle travel.
The MC Cruise is considerably different than a Rostra or Audiovox but only in execution, the principle is the same. The other major difference is that the Rostra is a displacement system (based on position) while the MC Cruise and Audiovox are force based systems (based on force applied- the displacement of the throttle is a secondary function of that force). The MC Cruise actually uses an Audiovox or Audiovox copy actuator and creates a new end point for the throttle cables on the motorcycle. So instead of the throttle cables attaching to the throttle plate shaft, they are moved to attach to the MC Cruise actuator and in turn the actuator has a pair of cables that go to the throttle plate shaft. Functionally it is identical to the Audiovox system- as the vehicle speed pulses decrease per unit time, there is more and more force applied to the throttle to increase the pulse rate. As to if the MC Cruise system is rotary or linear, it is rotary in nature although because of the above stated reasons I do not believe that matters.
Brian
Well, as usual Brian, that all makes sense and I most likely should just forget about it and save me some work. However I just have got to try my theory out, eventually.
Let me make sure that I have got the main facts correct. The McCruise and the Audiovox both have the same or same type of actuator, however the Audiovox is attached linearly (like the Rostra usually is). The McCruise actuator is actually hooked up directly to the throttle pulley (throttle plate shaft) and acts rotationally? If I've got that right
then I guess what I'm saying is, of the three only one is hooked up to act rotationally, and it is the only one of the three that I haven't
heard complaints about (except when they cough up the money to buy it ;D) I think what I just typed is known as an anecdotal argument and doesn't really hold water to your well thought out response. However it's enough for me to cling to. :)
Now about the non-linear response of the engine to throttle movement, since that would apply to an auto as well, would it be out of the question to think that the designers have an algorithm in there to compensate for that?
Anyway, it may all have to do with cable slack like you said, since in my situation it seems to only happen just after I have opened the throttle a lot more than what the Rostra was doing. Maybe after I hook up my "Engaged" LED I'll be better informed as to just when it gives up trying.
Overall I still gotta say, I love my Rostra. It's made some long (for me) trips much easier and no doubt saved me from some speeding tickets.
When I called Rostra (last summer) they were helpful, however I didn't volunteer the vehicle information until I was asked. The response was a very audible Al Gore like sigh followed by continued help but with less enthusiasm. I think it's time to tell them that we're installing them in manual transmission Honda Civics. (Pinocchio emoticon goes here)
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Same issue, but I can usually cancel/reengage the cruise 2-3 times before it won't reengage. I can get it to start working again by turning the cruise off and back on again. Then I reset my speed and can cancel/reengage the cruise 2-3 times before it happens again. Then I have to turn the cruise off and on again and reset the speed...
Nothing really major, but annoying... I hope you hear something.
this is what mine does,but didn't start til about 2 years after instal.granted it's annoying but other than this quirk it works great.bang for the buck it's hard to beat. :)
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Yep, seems to be the case. I too, contacted Rostra tech support just the other day, in an effort to solve a curious odd problem I was having on my unit and once they were informed the application was on a motorcycle...end of discussion. I had mentioned that they had responded to others questions from both forums in the past and this guy says "no, never". I then asked if I could just run something by him and the answer was simply "NO". His tactfulness and regard for customer service definitely left much to be desired. So for the moment, I think the only tech support is going to be each other regarding Rostra issues.
Good to know, if i have a problem such as this I guess I just tell them its on my car ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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I am also surprised that Rostra is no longer helping motorcycle customers- their CC was never intended for use on motorcycles but they had always been very helpful with me even knowing it was a motorcycle installation. In fact, the tech. at Rostra seemed curious and interested. Perhaps something has happened with motorcycle customers to have Rostra create a new policy regarding non- auto use?
Their legal dept probably had a discussion with them...
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After reading Brian's post I started looking for something I was doing. If his theory is right that Rostra could be slow to reengage with too much slack, could I potentially be impatient and exacerbating the situation by pushing set again while the rostra was in the process of taking up the slack?
I wanted to ride today and so elected not to take off the plastic to check the cable slack. However, I wanted to see if I pushed set twice in a row if it would still engage the unit. My theory was that maybe that was causing the unit to go into some type of error mode. I put the bike on the center stand and engaged the cruise. I heard the high pitch of the actuator and the cruise engaged. I hit the brake and then reengaged the cc. No problem. I did this about 5 times and it worked flawlessly (well as flawlessly as it could on the center stand)
I went for a ride and engaged and reengaged the unit about 30 times. I tend to set the unit by getting up to speed, hitting set and then immediately release the throttle. The first time I do this it normally dumps a couple mph and then picks it back up to where I set it.
I decided to hold the throttle open set the speed and continue holding the throttle I waited about 5 seconds before removing my hand. I didn't get the normal little surge that I am used to when setting it as described one paragraph up.
Using this setting method I could not make the cc NOT work. Each time I set it, it worked, absolutely no need to reset it.
Halfway thru my ride I intentionally tried to get this thing not to work. I was hitting set multiple times, setting and immediately releasing the throttle, etc. Again, I could not get it NOT to work.
The only theory I have now is that before leaving the house I did use some lemon pledge on the plastic. That must have soaked thru the plastic and lubricated some non-existent part, causing everything to work. ::)
I hate intermittent problems!
Could putting this up on the center stand and running it have done something? I don't see how it could have, but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Using this setting method I could not make the cc NOT work. Each time I set it, it worked, absolutely no need to reset it.
I did some experimenting on my ride yesterday. If I used the brakes to disengage the unit, it never failed to re-engage. If I used the clutch to disengage, then re-engaging was intermittent...
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I did some experimenting on my ride yesterday. If I used the brakes to disengage the unit, it never failed to re-engage. If I used the clutch to disengage, then re-engaging was intermittent...
....I tried to get it to fail with front brake, rear brake and clutch to no avail. I don't want it to fail, but sure wish I could figure out some "reason". Sounds like you are getting yours isolated down!
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Mine will work like a charm AS LONG AS YOU CANCEL IT WITH A BRAKE. The first time you grab the clutch to dis-engage I have to turn it off to re-engage it. Truth be told, the thing works fine with that one exception. I've learned to live with it. It IS a minor annoyance, but all in all I can deal with it.
I AM going to check the slack, I know how important that is. I just need the time to take off the tupperware. When I do, I have plenty tiny little projects to tackle!
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I need to test mine some more but so far I think
if I cancel it with the clutch it will re-engage and all is fine but I if cancel it with the brake
I have to shut it off and then start from scratch
I rode a couple times yesterday but it was not a good place to check the cruise out much
rode the wing today and going to ride the Vstrom tomorrow, so maybe Saturday I can get it back out for more testing
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....continuing the saga and keeping everyone with similar problems updated. I went after Brian's theory about too much slack. I found significant slack. I would guess close to 3/8 of an inch. I took the slack down to about 1/8" per the install instructions.
I took Fartymarty's suggestion and wired in a reset button. I just happened to have a heated grip switch laying around and just happen to have a plugged hole on the dash to fit the button. Now if the problem shall arise I can at least reset it with the push of the button instead of turning the bike off at 80 mph. ;D
In about 2 weeks I will be heading out on a 3200 mile trip to to the Grand Canyon, over to Vegas and then cut into the Pacific Coast Highway just North of Los Angeles and head North back to Washington State.
I will report back with the results of the slack adjustment.
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i noticed on my unit, ifI push the resume switch too long it will accelerate instead of return to the prior speed and likewise with the other buttons. I had to get used to quickly touching the set button and resume button. Too long on the reset button and it will go in the coast mode. Maybe this information will help.
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Having returned from my trip I have learned the following; even with the slack removed, the unit continued to have the intermittent issue. The reset button was great to have when the unit was not engaging like it should.
However, I modified my route and drove a little over a 1000 miles today returning home. The Rostra had to have been engaged and disengaged a 100 times. It worked perfectly. I really hate inconsistent problems. No adjustments were made after its lackluster performance on the way down to the desert.
Just wanted to update others that are having similar problems...bottom line I don't have a freakin' clue! ::)
....continuing the saga and keeping everyone with similar problems updated. I went after Brian's theory about too much slack. I found significant slack. I would guess close to 3/8 of an inch. I took the slack down to about 1/8" per the install instructions.
I took Fartymarty's suggestion and wired in a reset button. I just happened to have a heated grip switch laying around and just happen to have a plugged hole on the dash to fit the button. Now if the problem shall arise I can at least reset it with the push of the button instead of turning the bike off at 80 mph. ;D
In about 2 weeks I will be heading out on a 3200 mile trip to to the Grand Canyon, over to Vegas and then cut into the Pacific Coast Highway just North of Los Angeles and head North back to Washington State.
I will report back with the results of the slack adjustment.
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So bringing up and old post - I find that "sometimes" I cannot get the Rostra to re-engage also. While on these lonely Nevada roads I shut the bike off and back on and then I can get the unit to engage. Has anyone found a cure yet?
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Has anyone found a cure yet?
No cure here, but not the exact same problem either.
It still happens to me after I've accelerated to pass and then hit the brake for some reason before I've returned down to the set speed. The resume/accel and the set buttons are just ignored at that point and the Rostra seems to be in "tilt" mode. I don't have to turn the bike off however, I just turn off the Rostra with the power off button and give it a slow 10 count and power it back up and reset speed. Hitting the set button too soon after it's powered up doesn't work either, give it a second or two to "boot up", it's more like an old Pentium than an i7.
The engaged light I installed helps me determine when this happens more quickly and saves me some time in the reset. I've often wondered if there is an automatic reset, that is if I were to just handle the throttle for 5 minutes on my own, would I be able to then use the set function without the power down of the Rostra? So far I've been too impatient to test it.
Despite this occasional problem I still love my Rostra. :-*
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... I've often wondered if there is an automatic reset, that is if I were to just handle the throttle for 5 minutes on my own, would I be able to then use the set function without the power down of the Rostra? So far I've been too impatient to test it.
I have a throttle thingy that attaches to my throttle and rests against the brake lever and I have used it when the unit goes on the blitz. Still doesn't reset latter, I have to turn the bike off and then on again.
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I cannot help with the failure to re- engage issues as I have not had them; than again, I never, ever use the clutch to disengage the unit instead always using the brake light.
As far as the delay between turning the unit on (Easy Boys!) and being able to engage it, that has a logical reason and is not a fault or flaw. The unit needs some time to accumulate historical data on the vehicle's speed and that data gathering does not start until the unit is powered up, and it takes a few seconds to have all the data in place. Electronic units such as this one use an average of data points, not the last sample of vehicle speed directly; this is done to reduce or hopefully eliminate any spurious noise or loss of data. As an example, suppose the Rostra sampled the vehicle's speed ever 0.5 seconds and made adjustments accordingly. One 'noisy' reading and the unit could suddenly try to accelerate the vehicle to the set speed of, say, 70 MPH, from the current speed of, say, 20 MPH which would result in quite the throttle opening.
Another reason why data needs to be collected is so that the unit can compensate for a small error that has gone on too long- such as might happen when climbing a long but shallow grade. The vehicle may be down by, say, 3 MPH and the Rostra would have to open the throttle further than it would on a flat road but the only way for it to do that would be to react to previous vehicle speeds. BTW, in the world of motion control, this would be called Integral gain and is set on the Rosta via those DIP switches.
Brian
No cure here, but not the exact same problem either.
It still happens to me after I've accelerated to pass and then hit the brake for some reason before I've returned down to the set speed. The resume/accel and the set buttons are just ignored at that point and the Rostra seems to be in "tilt" mode. I don't have to turn the bike off however, I just turn off the Rostra with the power off button and give it a slow 10 count and power it back up and reset speed. Hitting the set button too soon after it's powered up doesn't work either, give it a second or two to "boot up", it's more like an old Pentium than an i7.
The engaged light I installed helps me determine when this happens more quickly and saves me some time in the reset. I've often wondered if there is an automatic reset, that is if I were to just handle the throttle for 5 minutes on my own, would I be able to then use the set function without the power down of the Rostra? So far I've been too impatient to test it.
Despite this occasional problem I still love my Rostra. :-*
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Interesting. I assume you wired the two power inputs on the Rostra according to the Rostra instructions rather than my tutorial? The way I wired mine, turning the unit off will remove all power from the Rostra; the way Rostra instructs, there is always power available from the brake light circuit.
Brian
I have a throttle thingy that attaches to my throttle and rests against the brake lever and I have used it when the unit goes on the blitz. Still doesn't reset latter, I have to turn the bike off and then on again.
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Yes I wired it the way Rostra said to wire it, Is that a bad thing? I did have to use a relay. But I may go back and look at yours again. I noticed all power will not go off the way I did mine. :nuts:
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No, absolutely not. In fact, their way has a safety feature that my way does not- if the brake light circuit fails for any reason, the Rostra will not engage. My wiring system does not have that feature.
The only downside to the Rostra system, besides a more complex wiring system, is that you cannot actually power down the actuator by turning off the Rostra switch. This is why you have to reset the unit by turning the ign. switch off.
At any rate, I do not believe that is the root of your problem anyway; I am merely pointing out one of the byproducts of the different ways to wire the system in the first place.
You have to use a relay no matter which wiring scheme you use so that makes no difference. The relay is a requirement for this particular bike, not the result of any particular method of wiring the Rostra to the bike.
Brian
Yes I wired it the way Rostra said to wire it, Is that a bad thing? I did have to use a relay. But I may go back and look at yours again. I noticed all power will not go off the way I did mine. :nuts:
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Well thank you for the information at least I don't feel so bad, I'm not the only person this has happened to. ;)
I didn't use the rear Aux power wires to install mine though like it was shown on your instructions. I forget now what I did but I know I didn't do that.
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Nope, I remember 'chatting' with you when you were doing your install and as I remember, what you did was perfectly fine, merely a choice on which way to do the install. I do not believe this issue is on the installer but rather either a quirk in the unit itself or the unit is sensitive to electrical noise (something I have long suspected with the Rostras). Normally electronic devices are not 'quirky' and their behavior is easily repeatable (once understood) but the Rostra seems a bit.... flighty in its behavior. Quite a few people just cannot get these units into diagnostic mode and I am attributing it to sensitivity in the system (sensitivity to electrical noise, very specific limits on what is "ground" and what is "hot", etc.).
As a general rule of thumb, if a Rostra works at all, it is installed correctly. One exception is that there have been grounding issues in the past but again, if you go by my instructions, I pick up ground from the main accessory lead on the bike's harness so it should be a good, solid ground for the system.
Brian
Well thank you for the information at least I don't feel so bad, I'm not the only person this has happened to. ;)
I didn't use the rear Aux power wires to install mine though like it was shown on your instructions. I forget now what I did but I know I didn't do that.
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As far as the delay between turning the unit on (Easy Boys!) and being able to engage it, that has a logical reason and is not a fault or flaw.
I hope I didn't imply that it was a flaw, my goal was to inform that when turning it back on to be patient and give it a few seconds before trying to set the speed.
I've wired mine the way Rostra instructs, but mine still will reset after it's powered off by the switch. I have rarely used the clutch to disengage, but there have been a few times when I've used it because I found my self cruising in 5th for several miles when I didn't mean to be, sometimes my earplugs work too well. Shifted and then hit the resume, never caused a problem other than the expected very brief rpm rise. My Rostra problem has always been caused by braking when moving faster than the set speed.
The way I wired mine, turning the unit off will remove all power from the Rostra;
Really?
I thought I understood the differences in the way our respective units (easy..) were wired...now I'm not so sure. I knew that my Rostra was on two circuits and that yours originally was on the accessory circuit alone, but I don't see how yours would do that (totally power down) unless you pulled the fuse to the acc circuit.
If that's correct then there may be some that would rather go back and wire it your way so they don't have to shut down the whole bike to get a Rostra reset.
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Really?
I thought I understood the differences in the way our respective units (easy..) were wired...now I'm not so sure. I knew that my Rostra was on two circuits and that yours originally was on the accessory circuit alone, but I don't see how yours would do that (totally power down) unless you pulled the fuse to the acc circuit.
If that's correct then there may be some that would rather go back and wire it your way so they don't have to shut down the whole bike to get a Rostra reset.
I wired per Brian's instructions, but pulled power off of the FZ-1 fuseblock. I probably did it wrong, but it will reset with a push of the button. :)
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I think you are right Marty, and I was wrong. I will have to think about this for a bit but that is my initial reaction.
So it does not matter how the two 'hot' inputs to the Rostra are wired (the two wires with fuses in them), as long as they are wired to a continuous power source, it will not make ANY difference to the operation or behavior of the unit.
So for those having a problem having to reset the unit, ignore everything I said earlier about how it is wired- that is not your problem. Hey, while you are at it, just ignore everything I say altogether and maybe we can avoid one of these mistakes in the future too. ;) ;D :-[
Thanks for pointing that out and correcting me Marty. (sincerely, not sarcastically)
Unfortunately, that brings us back to the 'quirk' and I now have no idea why some units do that and some do not. ??
Brian
Really?
I thought I understood the differences in the way our respective units (easy..) were wired...now I'm not so sure. I knew that my Rostra was on two circuits and that yours originally was on the accessory circuit alone, but I don't see how yours would do that (totally power down) unless you pulled the fuse to the acc circuit.
If that's correct then there may be some that would rather go back and wire it your way so they don't have to shut down the whole bike to get a Rostra reset.
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Well there seems to be two problems. (1) Some Rostra units need to be reset occasionally. This maybe because of some safety factor built into the Rostra that puts it in an inactive mode when it gets data that doesn't compute. It may also be caused due to less than optimal cable slack and the variable installations that we all seem to have. Maybe even temperature related or there may be multiple factors working together to cause this . It may never be solved completely. (2) Some need to power the whole bike down to get a reset condition and some just need to power the Rostra off and on to get it to reset. This second condition seems like it could be more wiring related and have a better chance of being solved so that all would be able to reset on the fly. Perhaps some sort of ground loop is involved? Maybe if instead of getting power directly from the taillight circuit we should try using a relay triggered by the tail light circuit that actually provides power to both Rostra power lines from the same circuit? (another relay Marty? is the collective groan) Then again there could be unknown internal changes between these units based on date of manufacture that only Rostra knows about. Still it would be nice if we could solve item one as it would make item two moot.
I think you are right Marty, and I was wrong.
Ha! That's funny, all I said was I wasn't sure and I didn't understand. Well now that I think about it, I was right, as I wasn't sure and I didn't understand.
As for you being wrong....only Andrea has the power to make that call...I'm not going near that one. ;)
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Well, there are a couple of things that are perhaps not as straight forward as they may at first appear.
First of all, there are thresholds on all of the parameters required by the Rostra: to sense ground, of course it does not have to be 0.00000 volts but only <close>. And therein lies the problem- what is close enough? I believe on the brake light circuit, it is less than 3 Ohms resistance to ground but even that is undefined because at what current? This is probably the biggest single problem with the various Rostra installation differences- we are all tapping into various circuits in different places. I personally have found the clutch switch to be a little 'spotty' in working and I believe it is because it is not a very effective ground. And yes, a relay would absolutely help in those circumstances.
As far as a ground loop, I do not think that is likely but electrical noise absolutely is. I do not know how well the Rostra is protected from electrical noise but I suspect we are using it in a considerably noisier environment than a car would be.
The second thing is that parts of the Rostra do not actually sense voltages in some cases but rather sense a change in voltage. That is how the VSS pick up on the Rostra works. Again, I am not sure of the boundaries of either low or high, or how much of a difference there has to be to trigger a case change (low or high). ?? The VSS input from a C-14 does seem to work well enough though.
As to the other thing, nah, lots of people have <correctly> pointed out my wrongness. I am wrong a lot- so much so that sometimes I think I should give up entirely. But then I forge ahead and before too long.... more wrongness. Hey, I am still trying to circumvent this whole mortality thingy and really hoping I am not wrong about that (that it can be circumvented). ;) Besides, if we all point out each other's wrongness, the only thing left will be all the right answers, right? I believe in professional circles that is called 'peer review'; in the school yard it is called "Oh yeah! OH YEAH!!! Make me!"
Brian
Well there seems to be two problems. (1) Some Rostra units need to be reset occasionally. This maybe because of some safety factor built into the Rostra that puts it in an inactive mode when it gets data that doesn't compute. It may also be caused due to less than optimal cable slack and the variable installations that we all seem to have. Maybe even temperature related or there may be multiple factors working together to cause this . It may never be solved completely. (2) Some need to power the whole bike down to get a reset condition and some just need to power the Rostra off and on to get it to reset. This second condition seems like it could be more wiring related and have a better chance of being solved so that all would be able to reset on the fly. Perhaps some sort of ground loop is involved? Maybe if instead of getting power directly from the taillight circuit we should try using a relay triggered by the tail light circuit that actually provides power to both Rostra power lines from the same circuit? (another relay Marty? is the collective groan) Then again there could be unknown internal changes between these units based on date of manufacture that only Rostra knows about. Still it would be nice if we could solve item one as it would make item two moot.
Ha! That's funny, all I said was I wasn't sure and I didn't understand. Well now that I think about it, I was right, as I wasn't sure and I didn't understand.
As for you being wrong....only Andrea has the power to make that call...I'm not going near that one. ;)
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I personally have found the clutch switch to be a little 'spotty' in working...
Well that's because you tapped in on the wrong side of the connector! ;D
(Please forgive me, I couldn't resist. :P )
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Yeah, I am probably getting the electrons late 'cause they had to jump through the crimps and contacts before I got a hold of them....
;D
Hey, maybe it is a quantum mechanics 'thingy'? Where is that guy who believes in that stuff in the first place (I mean besides Neils Bohr- I know where he is)?
:rotflmao:
Brian
Well that's because you tapped in on the wrong side of the connector! ;D
(Please forgive me, I couldn't resist. :P )
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Please, Brian, let's not turn this into a Bohring thread... ::) My brane is hurting from the last one.