Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: twowheeladdict on January 30, 2013, 12:03:09 PM
-
Seriously?
Obama to Top Brass- "Will you fire on American Citizens"? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABAlJqEBpdI#ws)
-
Kent State comes immediately to mind and if you search back through history there are other examples...
Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - "Ohio" (1970) Kent State University (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnOoNM0U6oc#ws)
I visited the memorial this past summer after a short meeting with Poke.
Please note that this has absolutely nothing to do with gun control yet the fact remains that our soldiers have been used to fire on civilians in the past since this country was founded.
I could not, and would not fire on unarmed civilians if I were a soldier.
-
I pictured it as some new form of government employee equivalent of TSA workers collecting them.
-
I pictured it as some new form of government employee equivalent of TSA workers collecting them.
And this will be their uniform..
(https://dgmtxa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pt3UpMXTST3cusjwEy6TGrRMENWSTPyMY1WDytOHKXBiPphU2GhBxoklV2N9-JkeLAsajl8rNO3mv1QGi0n7b5y1J_plFgTiE/Bullseye%20Tee-shirt2.jpg?psid=1)
-
And this will be their uniform..
(https://dgmtxa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pt3UpMXTST3cusjwEy6TGrRMENWSTPyMY1WDytOHKXBiPphU2GhBxoklV2N9-JkeLAsajl8rNO3mv1QGi0n7b5y1J_plFgTiE/Bullseye%20Tee-shirt2.jpg?psid=1)
While I get it, and not cracking on you, that's a horribly sad commentary of the current state of mind. We're Americans. The thought of civil war is fathomable but disgusting to me. Steve
-
Some will obey their orders, some won't, how many that obey will it take to achive what the Gov't wants? Less than you think.
-
Some will obey their orders, some won't, how many that obey will it take to achive what the Gov't wants? Less than you think.
And even fewer if the 2nd is abolished even further. Which IMHO is their goal. Who is they? That's the million dollar question.
-
Sorry,
Gotta throw the BS flag. Think this is a ratings harvest, very little real info, alotta speculation and fear mongering.
Will the military fire on the populace? - of course they will. Many, many precedents - virtually all being in response to mob violence (NY Draft riots in the 1860's, veterans protest 1920's, Kent State, 1970, LA Riots).
Will they control the populace - no.
1. There's not enough of them to do so - not even close.
2. Posse comitatus act prevents them even policing in the US.
3. All officers take an oath to the CONSTITUTION - not the Commander & Chief.
4. The people most likely to need 'controlling' - the "bitter people who cling to guns & religion" in the South - are where the vast majority of trigger pullers come from.
5. 4 Star generals dont 'fire' on anyone. They dont even give the orders to do so. They dont even make the specific plans to do so. They design campaigns, garner resources, give broad guidance, etc. Specific plans are made by MAJ's and LTC's - normal guys in their mid-late 30's. Actual shoot orders are given by CPT's and LT's in their 20's.
A military coup by a lower 1-2 star general is far more likely than a nation wide martial law.
-
Thanks for that....
-
Did some research on "dr" James Garrow. Seems he likes to "say stuff" but doesn't like to back it up. Read for yourself - http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/45036 (http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/45036) Steve
-
Posse Comitatus is dead.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R42659.pdf (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R42659.pdf)
The Posse Comitatus Act outlaws the willful use of any part of the Army or Air Force to execute
the law unless expressly authorized by the Constitution or an act of Congress. History supplies
the grist for an argument that the Constitution prohibits military involvement in civilian affairs
subject to only limited alterations by Congress or the President, but the courts do not appear to
have ever accepted the argument unless violation of more explicit constitutional command could
also be shown. The express statutory exceptions include the legislation that allows the President
to use military force to suppress insurrection or to enforce federal authority, 10 U.S.C. §§ 331-
335, and laws that permit the Department of Defense to provide federal, state and local police
with information, equipment, and personnel, 10 U.S.C. §§ 371-382.
-
Wow...excellent read, Gary.
-
The Congressional Research Service is an interesting resource.
https://opencrs.com/ (https://opencrs.com/)
http://www.fas.org/index.html (http://www.fas.org/index.html)
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/index.html (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/index.html)
http://digital.library.unt.edu/explore/collections/CRSR/ (http://digital.library.unt.edu/explore/collections/CRSR/)
-
I agree furbo, they are making political hay, both sides of the story. But I think that many here think that its going to all of a sudden be a free-for-all with firefights down every street and a sudden breakdown of order and with chaos the rule. Thats not what I mean, I don't see that happening. But remember, it was a few short weeks ago we were laughing at guys burying their guns. Theres going to be pockets of resistance and more and more incidents. I know many here have taken an oath, I have also, but some will obey and some will not, the Gov't knows this. They know they can't ban all guns in private hands, right now. Look at the U.K. and Australia to think it can't happen here. I know we have a constitution. We are two simple votes away in the Supreme Court from losing our rights as two justices stand to retire soon. The Supreme Court rules. We can sight laws, amendments, rules, oaths, justice, rights all we want, in end, if ordered, the military will take whatever measures are needed to do what they are told to do in light of whatever incident is judged as necessary to disarm a populace. Some will obey, some will not, over time as more incidents happen, the average American will gladly give up rights to ensure what they think is safety, all the while being told what to do by a willing media, we are watching happen right now.
-
:'(
-
While I get it, and not cracking on you, that's a horribly sad commentary of the current state of mind. We're Americans. The thought of civil war is fathomable but disgusting to me. Steve
While I understand and agree with you Steve, if an agent of the govt comes knocking on my door, demanding me to release my
firearms, well, conversation is obviously non-existent since they are demanding. Resistance would be my mindset, and protecting
my constitution and my rights would be in force. I hope this matter can be solved well before a scenario like this could materialize,
but this is a real path we are heading down, with division among our countrymen, weather legal or illegal, and that's what our
current administration is counting on, hence, the dual agenda of 'gun control' and immigration laws happening together.
Divide and conquer seems to be their method, jmho..
-
... We can sight laws, amendments, rules, oaths, justice, rights all we want, in end, if ordered, the military will take whatever measures are needed to do what they are told to do in light of whatever incident is judged as necessary to disarm a populace.
I agree that the 2nd amendment is under threat from a minority of whacko handringers. BUT - I really don't see the Military being used to disarm the populace. Assuming the significant legal issues could be overcome - there remain the problems of demographics: the great majority of combat troops are white, rural, blue collar guys from the S and Texas....exactly the place where many of Americas guns are at.
And NUMBERS. There aren't enough soldiers to even begin to round up 300M guns from over half the 300M population.....the entire Army is only 480K, the USMC 175K. Of those, the percentage of actual door kicking combat troops is less than 60%.
To make the point - we've had 100K soldiers in Afghanistan for the past 18 months in a population 1/10th that of the US...and as any of my friends will tell you, we have most definitely NOT disarmed the populace... :yikes:
-
As a Canadian I'm reading these posts with great interest as we went through portions of this exercise in the not to distant past with the exception of not having a 'second amendment' to fall back on.
When we talk about the government disarming it's people and the ludicrous-ness of it, it makes me wonder how the Nazi's were able to disarm their populace in the 1930's. Just boots on doors and lots of stoolies I would imagine.
I could imagine it happening to the flock of Canadians, we're just a bunch of sheep, for the most part, but in America? I just can't imagine it.
Any government thinking they are going to disarm citizens who want to remain armed is dreaming. Could Obama be that misled?
-
Well it would be much easier for Germany to do it since they have a land mass of 137,847 sq. mi. and the good old US of A has 3.79 million sq. mi.
-
Maybe a lesson from 1933 Germany will help.
Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_Fire_Decree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_Fire_Decree)
The Reichstag Fire Decree (German: Reichstagsbrandverordnung) is the common name of the Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State (German: Verordnung des Reichspräsidenten zum Schutz von Volk und Staat) issued by German President Paul von Hindenburg in direct response to the Reichstag fire of 27 February 1933. The decree nullified many of the key civil liberties of German citizens. With Nazis in powerful positions in the German government, the decree was used as the legal basis of imprisonment of anyone considered to be opponents of the Nazis, and to suppress publications not considered “friendly” to the Nazi cause. The decree is considered by historians to be one of the key steps in the establishment of a one-party Nazi state in Germany.
Order of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State
On the basis of Article 48 paragraph 2 of the Constitution of the German Reich, the following is ordered in defense against Communist state-endangering acts of violence:
§ 1.
Articles 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124 and 153 of the Constitution of the German Reich are suspended until further notice. It is therefore permissible to restrict the rights of personal freedom [habeas corpus], freedom of (opinion) expression, including the freedom of the press, the freedom to organize and assemble, the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications. Warrants for House searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.
This was followed by The Enabling Act of 1933.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933)
-
Upper NY state PBA up in arms about the way NY passed the new gun legislation, and it appears they're not going to be involved in confiscation or enforcement. It's long, but certainly germain to the topic - http://www.bob-owens.com/2013/01/a-deliberate-attempt-to-bypass-the-constitutional-process-ny-sheriffs-pba-blasts-cuomo-legislature-over-ny-safe-act/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BobOwens+%28Bob+Owens%29 (http://www.bob-owens.com/2013/01/a-deliberate-attempt-to-bypass-the-constitutional-process-ny-sheriffs-pba-blasts-cuomo-legislature-over-ny-safe-act/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BobOwens+%28Bob+Owens%29)
Steve
-
Does your President have the ability to suspend portions of your constitution like they did in Germany?
-
If you google 'obama martial law' you get 6,000,000 hits. A lot of people seem to think he can.
-
I just don't see him doing that, Gary.
-
Honestly Jim, neither do I. I don't believe we're there yet. I hope this country never is. Change is inevitable but it's not necessarily good. We've had bad leaders and not so bad leaders but they have all been a product of the society at the time. There are a great many people in this country now, and will be from now on, who don't want the hassle and fear of managing their own freedom and responsibilities. Best we can hope for is to contain them in their cities and not let them screw up the rest of the country.
-
Does your President have the ability to suspend portions of your constitution like they did in Germany?
It's not like the U.S. has ever rounded up people and put them in to camps... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment) ::)
-
Yep, we've been there, done that, and have the t-shirt. Both the Japanese and German nationals were rounded up and put in camps during WW2, although you hear more about the Japanese internments than the German. England did the same thing with some of their German nationals during WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment)
-
It's not like the U.S. has ever rounded up people and put them in to camps... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment) ::)
That's true, but pls resist the temptation to equate those camps,which tho shameful, were NOT equivilent to anything in Nazi germany, or other nations. Many indiivduals actually volunteered for service in uniform, becomming the most decorted outfit of WW II.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States))
BUT - back to our original subject - the US Military is NOT going to control the nation. Cant, no way, no how.
Now - if you can get alot of those chromosome deficient guys on police forces with a strong wannabewarriorcomplex...then you may have something to fear.
-
I'm a Gun lover and I also live in the real world and your nut buddys mam-pamy land or what ever the draft dodger calls it , NO one is taking anyone guns , ammo or women get real.
They are going to have a hard time getting back round checks done for personal sales. I for one believe someone needs a safe if they have X amount of guns because most guns that end of in criminals hands are stolen.
-
I'm a Gun lover and I also live in the real world
Cuda - you live in the real FLORIDA world. So do I. Folk up in the northern states have a different view of "real world"than we do. I know cus that's where I'm from and my northern relatives hate evil guns and want them all gone. To them, I'm weird. Steve
-
Cuda - you live in the real FLORIDA world. So do I. SOME Folk up in the northern states have a different view of "real world"than we do. I know cus that's where I'm from and my northern relatives hate evil guns and want them all gone. To them, I'm weird. Steve
Had to fix that for you.
Many of us "folk up in the northern states" that live outside of the cities have a very similar "view of the 'real world'" as you do.
-
Yeah Jon, but being a CO gives you a more "complete" picture of the world. Steve
-
I have a Australian friend that contends their gun confiscation was the damnest thing he had ever seen. The most rugged, meanest, out-back, "pry from my dead hands" men gave them up willingly. The consequences of having an illegal gun wasn't worth it.
I would like to think I will stand my ground on the Second Amendment. But you never know until they knock at the door.
-
Yep, talk is cheap from the gun store commandos around the kitchen table until you face years of prison, loads of fines, loss of job, loss of income, loss of house, possibly loss of life. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm merely playing devil's advocate to boogers and others comments. All plans go to hell when the shooting starts.
-
Damn shame everything was lost in that boating accident.
-
You know, I think we need a committee to look into these boating accidents that seem to be piling up recently. Are these rapid sinking high capacity assualt boats? Do they have a prominent steering wheel forward of the engine compartment? Is there an attachment for an anchor? Do they have a muffler attached? Is there a collapsable transom present? If so, we may have a problem.